Regional Rail (RUR) & North-South Rail Link (NSRL)

[tysmith95]

Main downside of Needham Green is that they would lose access to the Seaport without transferring. Timewise, since the CR had so many stops might be similar.

The current trip length from Needham to the Back Bay is slightly less than the trip length from Riverside to the Back Bay on the green line.

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

Along with extending the orange down to West Roxbury, I think extending it north to the center of Melrose would make sense. A new orange line stop to replace Cedar Park and Wyoming Hill on the Haverhill Line.

That decision isn't going to be forced by RER. Interlining the outer Haverhill Line via the Lowell Line solves nearly all capacity issues with Urban Rail to Reading. They're OK save for some non-costly track work.


It's NSRL that brings about an ultimatum, because pair-matching the Reading Line with something south is going to overstrain its capacity, while the Eastern Route's pair-matching will max out all capacity at Reading Jct. in Somerville where the lines split. Costs for capacity enhancement and grade crossing elimination are so steep that doing a thorough enough job for Purple starts costing par or greater than Orange conversion.


Thus, a big dilemma. But only under NSRL, not northside RER.

 

[bakgwailo]

The current trip length from Needham to the Back Bay is slightly less than the trip length from Riverside to the Back Bay on the green line.

I think the main drawback/losers are the Rozzie/Westie folks who will go from a 20ish minute one seat ride to South Station/Back Bay to a much longer Orange Line ride (with needing to transfer to get to South Station).

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

The current trip length from Needham to the Back Bay is slightly less than the trip length from Riverside to the Back Bay on the green line.

But for local transpo Needham's orientation runs much more strongly north-south to Newton than across the unpopulated miles of swamp. One-seat to Back Bay isn't even half the value proposition here. Cars off Highland/Kendrick and Needham St. Newton is where it primarily makes hay. The D itself will have higher speed limit and quicker station dwells than today after GLT, so "slight" difference in travel times becomes negligible. Throw on Red-Blue's effects at de-clogging SL1 and the Seaport transfer sheds some meaningful time.


Given that the frequencies to Needham on CR are literally scheduled to DROP with 20 more years of solo-Amtrak growth and may be forced into a transfer at Forest Hills as an RER network necessity, pearl-clutching about the really shitty-frequency one-seat is doubleplus misguided here. It's not good transit today and can't ever be made into good transit.

 

[HenryAlan]

I think the main drawback/losers are the Rozzie/Westie folks who will go from a 20ish minute one seat ride to South Station/Back Bay to a much longer Orange Line ride (with needing to transfer to get to South Station).

Most people I know in Rozzie and Westie are more interested in frequency coupled with better access to local service and would gladly trade a slightly longer ride to Back Bay. As for South Station, I doubt there is a very large number of Needham Line riders for whom that is the only viable end point. Financial District, for example, is equally accessible from the Orange Line. Kendle via Red Line is an easy transfer at DTX. People needing to get to the Seaport will definitely have a valid complaint, I just don't think that's a significant piece of the ridership. Once you peal off Longwood, Back Bay, FiDi, and Kendle as major employment centers, 4/5 are served in a fairly equivalent fashion by the Orange Line.

 

[tysmith95]

Most people I know in Rozzie and Westie are more interested in frequency coupled with better access to local service and would gladly trade a slightly longer ride to Back Bay. As for South Station, I doubt there is a very large number of Needham Line riders for whom that is the only viable end point. Financial District, for example, is equally accessible from the Orange Line. Kendle via Red Line is an easy transfer at DTX. People needing to get to the Seaport will definitely have a valid complaint, I just don't think that's a significant piece of the ridership. Once you peal off Longwood, Back Bay, FiDi, and Kendle as major employment centers, 4/5 are served in a fairly equivalent fashion by the Orange Line.

I tend to disagree about the seaport, it is the fastest growing part of the city and certainly a big portion of ridership.

 

[Schorschico]

Most people I know in Rozzie and Westie are more interested in frequency

As a Rozzie resident myself I agree 100%. Frequency beats everything else. Always.

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

I tend to disagree about the seaport, it is the fastest growing part of the city and certainly a big portion of ridership.

That's not a Needham Line problem. That's a "We never finished the Silver Line" problem...shared by MANY, MANY other points of origin because the thing never ended up touching Orange or Green in any way/shape/form.

The solution isn't to keep crappy frequencies forever on one corridor out of living terror of losing the one-seat...it's to un- ¯|_(ツ)_/¯ the Silver Line whether it costs them a couple billion to plow a Green Line branch into the Transitway or not, so there's enough robustness in transfers to make extremely high frequencies from multiple sources work for reaching that destination.

RER's not going to sweep this problem under the rug. Oh, no...the increase in systemwide CR frequencies is only going to make it burn with the searing intensity of a thousand fire ant bites. Just like they're belatedly realizing they can't flush more riders into downtown without building Red-Blue lest all of downtown be forever melting down, the next subject they'll no longer be able to dodge is the Silver Line...incompleteness and dysfunction therein. This is natural outflow of RER: uniformly high frequencies skyrocket the rate of transfers and multi-seat trips as means of getting around, so you have to be set up to distribute all those people at your transfer nodes. If they don't want the missing Seaport-Downtown leg to be the entire MBTA district's mobility Achilles heel, then they'll either have to get serious about fixing it or abandon all plans to do RER in the first place.

 

[FK4]

I think the main drawback/losers are the Rozzie/Westie folks who will go from a 20ish minute one seat ride to South Station/Back Bay to a much longer Orange Line ride (with needing to transfer to get to South Station).

I would miss the niceness of the commuter rail (when there's actually a seat), and the speed.... but would gladly take frequency over comfort. I live closer to the Rozzie station now than I did for years of taking the OL in JP, and I rarely take the rail, due to frequency issues.

 

[tysmith95]

That's not a Needham Line problem. That's a "We never finished the Silver Line" problem...shared by MANY, MANY other points of origin because the thing never ended up touching Orange or Green in any way/shape/form.

The solution isn't to keep crappy frequencies forever on one corridor out of living terror of losing the one-seat...it's to un- ¯|_(ツ)_/¯ the Silver Line whether it costs them a couple billion to plow a Green Line branch into the Transitway or not, so there's enough robustness in transfers to make extremely high frequencies from multiple sources work for reaching that destination.

RER's not going to sweep this problem under the rug. Oh, no...the increase in systemwide CR frequencies is only going to make it burn with the searing intensity of a thousand fire ant bites. Just like they're belatedly realizing they can't flush more riders into downtown without building Red-Blue lest all of downtown be forever melting down, the next subject they'll no longer be able to dodge is the Silver Line...incompleteness and dysfunction therein. This is natural outflow of RER: uniformly high frequencies skyrocket the rate of transfers and multi-seat trips as means of getting around, so you have to be set up to distribute all those people at your transfer nodes. If they don't want the missing Seaport-Downtown leg to be the entire MBTA district's mobility Achilles heel, then they'll either have to get serious about fixing it or abandon all plans to do RER in the first place.

Ideally, and this might fall under the crazy transit pitch section, but ideally you'd have one of the Somerville trains take a new tunnel from Park to the existing Silver Line tunnel, and convert that to light rail. I'd even extend the rail all the way down to Southie, especially with the new development planned by the old Boston Edison.

Although for Orange riders they could just use the increased frequencies on Urban Rail to take a train from Back Bay to South Station.

 

[Shepard]

That's not a Needham Line problem. That's a "We never finished the Silver Line" problem...shared by MANY, MANY other points of origin because the thing never ended up touching Orange or Green in any way/shape/form.

The solution isn't to keep crappy frequencies forever on one corridor out of living terror of losing the one-seat...it's to un- ¯|_(ツ)_/¯ the Silver Line whether it costs them a couple billion to plow a Green Line branch into the Transitway or not, so there's enough robustness in transfers to make extremely high frequencies from multiple sources work for reaching that destination.

RER's not going to sweep this problem under the rug. Oh, no...the increase in systemwide CR frequencies is only going to make it burn with the searingintensity of a thousand fire ant bites. Just like they're belatedly realizing they can't flush more riders into downtown without building Red-Blue lest all of downtown be forever melting down, the next subject they'll no longer be able to dodge is the Silver Line...incompleteness and dysfunction therein. This is natural outflow of RER: uniformly high frequencies skyrocket the rate of transfers and multi-seat trips as means of getting around, so you have to be set up to distribute all those people at your transfer nodes. If they don't want the missing Seaport-Downtown leg to be the entire MBTA district's mobility Achilles heel, then they'll either have to get serious about fixing it or abandon all plans to do RER in the first place.

+1000. If Needham makes the switch, then the relative inaccessibility of the Seaport would hardly be unique to Needham. The SL's stub-end at South Station means that any place not on the RL or south-side CR will be a 2-transfer schlep.* That's why making the Piers Transitway a GL service connected in to the rest of the GL is probably one of the few transit priorities that I would place above even NSRL.

*The new SL Chelsea connection from Airport BL would be a 1-transfer trip off the BL, but that's a relatively niche product.

 

[ceo]

Ideally, and this might fall under the crazy transit pitch section, but ideally you'd have one of the Somerville trains take a new tunnel from Park to the existing Silver Line tunnel, and convert that to light rail. I'd even extend the rail all the way down to Southie, especially with the new development planned by the old Boston Edison.

That's been discussed here before; it would probably have to be a reverse branch just before Boylston, with stations at "Boylston Under" and Chinatown. Riders coming from the north would have to transfer.

 

[HelloBostonHi]

That's been discussed here before; it would probably have to be a reverse branch just before Boylston, with stations at "Boylston Under" and Chinatown. Riders coming from the north would have to transfer.

Its also been talked about for decades and was part of the original silver line plan:

The buses pass over the Massachusetts Turnpike and disappear under Tremont Street as they dive below one of America's first subway tunnels opened on October 1, 1897 and abandoned on April 6, 1962. The new Silver Line tunnel, mined under the old one, connects to Boston Common and the Green Line at Boylston Street. Passing beneath the Green Line, the subterranean buses turn right and head for South Station. En route, the Silver Line vehicles pass below the Washington Street Orange Line tunnel built in 1908. Continuing under Boylston/Essex Street the vehicles dive under the six-lane, Dewey Square highway tunnel, now I-93, built in 1959.

However contrary to common belief, a conversion to LRV was not the original plan. They would prefer to platoon buses then eventually move to full length "trolley" buses in the trunk. And I agree, I see no reason to spend a massive amt of $ converting to rail when the bus technology exists to achieve the same goal.

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

That's been discussed here before; it would probably have to be a reverse branch just before Boylston, with stations at "Boylston Under" and Chinatown. Riders coming from the north would have to transfer.

That was the SL Phase III plan. Unfortunately the need to stack both those stations while threading down narrow Essex St. and swinging under the Common sent cost estimates through the roof on mitigation impacts. So while a re-study of the proposal would do a new workup of that same Essex alignment simply because it's the best-studied to-date, the financial reality is that this project only has a chance of getting built --on any mode--by charting a new path. Most likely a South End jog on a couple potential alignments (Tremont/Marginal/Hudson, Tremont/Stuart/Kneeland, etc.) that re-uses some/all of the abandoned Tremont St. tunnel, and that does an offset station connected by concourse to Orange Line Tufts Medical Ctr. (available in one form or another to the candidate alignments).

In that case, the project would be interlining with the northern Green Line branches. Either of the GLX's, or future Urban Ring Northwest and/or Northeast quadrants. Any which way the Seaport would have 2 Red, 3 Orange, 1 Blue, and BOTH Purple terminals to transfer to on a single seat. And, if that Urban Ring NE leg gets built...an all-rail "inverse-SL3". Which may be crucial if bus SL3 has to hit the chopping block to make room for other Transitway services (e.g. if Urban Ring Southeast BRT from Dudley gets built, and needs entryway into the tunnel).

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

However contrary to common belief, a conversion to LRV was not the original plan. They would prefer to platoon buses then eventually move to full length "trolley" buses in the trunk. And I agree, I see no reason to spend a massive amt of $ converting to rail when the bus technology exists to achieve the same goal.

Please stop repeating this falsehood. You were already corrected on it here in the SL Chelsea thread less than 2 months ago:

See p 14. https://books.google.com/books?id=P...s transitway conversion to light rail&f=false

The DEIR evaluated light rail. The DEIR *was* the "original plan". BRT ended up being chosen as the final go-ahead over the other Alternatives evaluated in the "original plan". The final design also made explicit provisions to accommodate future LRT conversion should it prove necessary. This isn't "popular belief"...it's right there spelled out point-blank in the documents TallIsGood provides above.

 

[bakgwailo]

Most people I know in Rozzie and Westie are more interested in frequency coupled with better access to local service and would gladly trade a slightly longer ride to Back Bay. As for South Station, I doubt there is a very large number of Needham Line riders for whom that is the only viable end point. Financial District, for example, is equally accessible from the Orange Line. Kendle via Red Line is an easy transfer at DTX. People needing to get to the Seaport will definitely have a valid complaint, I just don't think that's a significant piece of the ridership. Once you peal off Longwood, Back Bay, FiDi, and Kendle as major employment centers, 4/5 are served in a fairly equivalent fashion by the Orange Line.

Sure, I used to live there (and grew up there) and I personally would take Orange Line HRT frequencies over the CR, too, I was just pointing out the main loss I would see in conversion is that South Station/Seaport is now no longer a quick one seat ride. As it is now, if you can catch/line up the CR, you hit Backbay, Ruggles/Longwood, and South Station (DTX/Seaport) which pretty much hits all of the major spots in Boston. Honestly, I have no idea the ridership patterns at South Station, though; are they transferring to the red? silver line? walking to the seaport, Financial District, Leather District, or DTX? I just know a few people it probably would impact - although I think most of them (at least under 50) would trade it for the Orange Line. Just pointing it out as the main potential concern I could see people having (other than the really old school keep the "undesirables" out mentality).

 

[jklo]

I have no idea the ridership patterns at South Station, though; are they transferring to the red? silver line?

My experience is that most get off and walk to their destination after exiting SS although I reckon there's a ton of people who then get on Red to go to Kendall.

The fundamental difference is that CR riders typically only use mass transit for job-related activities; so speed and reliability (ie: arrive and get there when the schedule says it should) is most important, especially when the commute is pushing an hour+ already.

 

[tysmith95]

My experience is that most get off and walk to their destination after exiting SS although I reckon there's a ton of people who then get on Red to go to Kendall.

The fundamental difference is that CR riders typically only use mass transit for job-related activities; so speed and reliability (ie: arrive and get there when the schedule says it should) is most important, especially when the commute is pushing an hour+ already.

My guess is that the percentage of people transferring at South Station is a good bit lower than North Station.

 

[jklo]

My guess is that the percentage of people transferring at South Station is a good bit lower than North Station.

No doubt. Back Bay, Kendall, Seaport too far to walk. I imagine that's a big reason why CR ridership on the Northside isn't all that great.

 

[tysmith95]

No doubt. Back Bay, Kendall, Seaport too far to walk. I imagine that's a big reason why CR ridership on the Northside isn't all that great.

Oh definitively. Even the financial district is a long walk, while South Station is in the middle of the financial district.

A NSRL would help the northern lines the most.