Regional Rail (RUR) & North-South Rail Link (NSRL)

[F-Line to Dudley]

Hypothetically, would this issue be offset by Indigo esque headways and the OL coming from Back Bay/Forest Hills to hit those areas? Obviously it makes 0 sense for them to blow by these stops only for commuters to backtrack towards them, but is there a # of riders lost (or annoyed/screwed over) that would be an acceptable trade off for shaving a few minutes off the schedule?

Given their apparent goal of establishing some level of service, no matter how shortsighted or seemingly half-assed, without electrification it makes sense for them to shorten travel times to draw in at least a base level of ridership.

No. The SW Corridor tunnel is the bottleneck, so you're not going to solve the problem by flushing even more trains that have to make all stops while doing a crossover dance that gets in the way of other trains. You need less track switching, not more...and if you're running more trains to Forest Hills and the squished 4-track redesign of Hyde Park, you're doing lots more track switching and getting constantly in the way of high-speed traffic.

Interlining Franklin trains on the Fairmount Line removes some track switching. Quad-track from Forest Hills past 128 + quad platforms @ 128 removes much more track switching. Removing the Needham Line entirely by punting it to rapid transit removes the biggest track switching toilet clog of them all. Taken as a whole that should net you all the capacity you need to have Providence and Stoughton/South Coast stop at Ruggles, 128, and Canton Junction all the time...because the only traffic sorting necessary is up to one track change coming out of the Ruggles platform, then simply fanning out when Track 4 starts at Green St. Then it's just fixing what capacity the Army Corps broke in the swamp to try to get SCR schedules that can match RER service out to the branch split in Taunton.

But you can't pick up Hyde Park again if the rebuilt quad-track station it's going to be on an island shifted way over to one side, and you can't hope to add Forest Hills to more trips when that's got exactly the same skewed platform configuration. At most, you can almost certainly re-add Readville no-foul to NEC trips because it'll have side platforms after Track 4 goes in and thus no trains have to cross after they sort themselves post-Ruggles. Maybe only on Providence trips because SCR is still an icky-long trip befitting a minimalist/no-surplus-to-requirement stop selection. And Readville would have transfer opportunities to hyper-frequent Fairmount trains and Franklin/Foxboro RER trains so its overall utility would be lots more valuable in the future.

The existence of Track 3 and the pending re-existence of Track 4 mean an Orange Line extension to HP and Readville is physically impossible. The corridor isn't wide enough, and it still spends a lot of its time south of Forest Hills in a cut closely bounded by area streets. West Roxbury is the only viable extension; the Readville option studied in the 70's became null and void the second Amtrak NEC traffic caught a growth wave (now well on its way to tsunami).


Instead of trying to cram more traffic messes down there in the name of trying to save a couple stations whose physical layouts just don't jibe with the delicate traffic dance on the NEC, find some other ways to achieve value-added. Because the layout is compatible with NEC, first place to look is seeing what the Readville superstation brings to the table.

 

[tysmith95]

It might make sense logistically, but Franklin Line riders will be pissed if you try to route their trains through the Fairmount line. The'd lose one seat access to the Back Bay, and add 10-15 mins to the trip to South Station in order to pick up a bunch of riders in low income areas.

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

It might make sense logistically, but Franklin Line riders will be pissed if you try to route their trains through the Fairmount line. The'd lose one seat access to the Back Bay, and add 10-15 mins to the trip to South Station in order to pick up a bunch of riders in low income areas.

Well, we'll find out one way or the other that's exactly what nearly all permutations of the Rail Vision spec for Franklin.

I don't think it'll be a big deal because if/when Foxboro goes full-time 1/2 of the Franklin main frequencies out to Walpole will be running via Fairmount...comprising a 100% increase in frequencies for those riders. And there are still a couple of daily Forge Park slots running express via Fairmount, so when F'boro goes full-build you'll already be at >50% of the daily Walpole-in schedules bypassing Back Bay.

It's not that radical a change. I think we as observers severely overrate the utility of the one-seat vs. the utility of very substantially increased frequencies. This example will probably show it because the driver will be the outright doubling-plus of available train schedules.

 

[Equilibria]

It's not that radical a change. I think we as observers severely overrate the utility of the one-seat vs. the utility of very substantially increased frequencies. This example will probably show it because the driver will be the outright doubling-plus of available train schedules.

It's not an increase in frequency if you're commuting to Back Bay, it's an elimination of service. South Station to Back Bay is not a service the T really provides.

 

[whittle]

South Station to Back Bay is not a service the T really provides.

You're joking, right?

Edit: https://cdn.mbta.com/sites/default/files/route_pdfs/2018-fall/2018-10-29-back-bay-south-station.pdf

 

[Equilibria]

You're joking, right?

Edit: https://cdn.mbta.com/sites/default/files/route_pdfs/2018-fall/2018-10-29-back-bay-south-station.pdf

Not at all. Commuter Rail is not a bus or light rail - it runs on an infrequent schedule. If the urban rail model comes to be with frequency, that's one thing. With the current model, it's not meant to make connections. CR trains stop at both Back Bay and South Station, but to drop off at both and then to pick up from both, not to facilitate travel between the two.

 

[ssresident]

It's not an increase in frequency if you're commuting to Back Bay, it's an elimination of service. South Station to Back Bay is not a service the T really provides.

They have a schedule just for that service: Back Bay - South Station Spring 2019

As an Old Colony rider, my commute is a Kingston train to SS, then walk over a few tracks to the next outgoing train (usually to Wickford but if we're late, I'll grab an Ashland train), and I hop off at BB. I do understand that those riders will see it as a loss of service to them, but in the overall scheme of things, it's the easiest way to provide more service to more people, which should be the T's primary goal.
Edit: there's at least 50 other people on my train that do the same thing, and it happens on all the OC trains, not just mine.

 

[sneijder]

3@. Needham RAPID TRANSIT CONVERSION. Settle up for service equitability's sake because next-highest priority, but we know already this one is a waste of resources to do at 25 kV AC commuter rail when the line's future is 600 V DC attached to Orange & Green.

How exactly will the Needham conversion get done? As a extra branch off the D-line for a D-to-riverside and D-to-needham? And for a orange line conversion, is there space for all the double tracking and pedestrian grade-crossing eliminations that need to happen?

In either case, travel times to downtown will be 40+ minutes, as a tradeoff for more frequent service.

Always have enjoyed your posts F-line. Great insights.

 

[whittle]

Not at all. Commuter Rail is not a bus or light rail - it runs on an infrequent schedule. If the urban rail model comes to be with frequency, that's one thing. With the current model, it's not meant to make connections. CR trains stop at both Back Bay and South Station, but to drop off at both and then to pick up from both, not to facilitate travel between the two.

This has been an advertised service provided by the mbta for several years now (for awhile I think they even advertised as free, but I don't know that's always still true).

Also this ignoring the possibility of a coordinated transfer at Readville, which were discussed during the fmcb presentation as a way to keep frequencies high on branch lines.

 

[HenryAlan]

The existence of Track 3 and the pending re-existence of Track 4 mean an Orange Line extension to HP and Readville is physically impossible. The corridor isn't wide enough, and it still spends a lot of its time south of Forest Hills in a cut closely bounded by area streets. West Roxbury is the only viable extension; the Readville option studied in the 70's became null and void the second Amtrak NEC traffic caught a growth wave (now well on its way to tsunami).

This makes me wonder whether the best solution might be switching Amtrak off the NEC at Readville. Is there capacity on Fairmont for inter-city service? I think it's far more useful to max out the number of commuter/regional rail trains that can stop at Ruggles and Back Bay than it is to have Amtrak stop at Back Bay.

 

[Equilibria]

This has been an advertised service provided by the mbta for several years now (for awhile I think they even advertised as free, but I don't know that's always still true).

That doesn't change the nature of the service, the frequency, or the convenience.

Also this ignoring the possibility of a coordinated transfer at Readville, which were discussed during the fmcb presentation as a way to keep frequencies high on branch lines.

That's a brainstorm, not even an actual proposal at this point. If it's tied directly to the changes to Franklin service - we won't do one without the other -then it's worth examining them together. If they're separate ideas or a spitball attempt ad-libbed in a meeting, then we should assess the impacts separately.

FWIW, cross-platform transfer here is not like it is for bus or metro. You're asking people who may be working or asleep to give up their seat and cross the platform onto a train that may be full - it's not like anyone will be crossing back to the Fairmount train.

 

[HenryAlan]

How exactly will the Needham conversion get done? As a extra branch off the D-line for a D-to-riverside and D-to-needham? And for a orange line conversion, is there space for all the double tracking and pedestrian grade-crossing eliminations that need to happen?

In either case, travel times to downtown will be 40+ minutes, as a tradeoff for more frequent service.

Always have enjoyed your posts F-line. Great insights.

There are no grade crossings on what would become the Orange Line extension and there is definitely room for double tracking already in that ROW (much of it already is, all of it was). There are definitely some grade crossings on any Needham GL extension. It's light rail, maybe they can be left in place, but at least some of them might need remediation.

 

[millerm277]

This makes me wonder whether the best solution might be switching Amtrak off the NEC at Readville. Is there capacity on Fairmont for inter-city service? I think it's far more useful to max out the number of commuter/regional rail trains that can stop at Ruggles and Back Bay than it is to have Amtrak stop at Back Bay.

I will point out that Amtrak does heavy ridership out of Back Bay and I think you'd have a big fight on your hands trying to convince them to let trips miss it.

It does 40% of the ridership that South Station itself does, nearly equal to New Haven.

 

[HenryAlan]

Yes, lots of Amtrak riders use Back Bay, but it's not hard for the occasional passenger to go to South Station or Rt. 128 instead. I tend to prioritize the every day commuter for whom a 10 minute longer ride ends up being dozens of lost hours, not to mention daily inconvenience.

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

This makes me wonder whether the best solution might be switching Amtrak off the NEC at Readville. Is there capacity on Fairmont for inter-city service? I think it's far more useful to max out the number of commuter/regional rail trains that can stop at Ruggles and Back Bay than it is to have Amtrak stop at Back Bay.

Not a decision anyone at state level can impose on Amtrak, who by entangled agreements pre-dating any T Providence Line involvement have dispatch and maintenance control over the NEC. There'
s zero voluntary incentive in it for them. They've sunk enough coin into having a faster and higher-capacity railroad that the switch would be too punitive to entertain. Fairmount not only has more curves, lower speed limit, and fewer tracks...but its crossovers aren't set up for high speeds either.

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

There are no grade crossings on what would become the Orange Line extension and there is definitely room for double tracking already in that ROW (much of it already is, all of it was). There are definitely some grade crossings on any Needham GL extension. It's light rail, maybe they can be left in place, but at least some of them might need remediation.

No eliminations are truly necessary. *Maybe* Gould St. if that's going to be the major 128 Pn'R stop, but the crossing would be north of the parking area further away from Highland Ave. so even that's not a must-have. Probably no others need it due to either adjacent station stops or traffic levels that are manageable.

 

[datadyne007]

How exactly will the Needham conversion get done? As a extra branch off the D-line for a D-to-riverside and D-to-needham? And for a orange line conversion, is there space for all the double tracking and pedestrian grade-crossing eliminations that need to happen?

We at TransitMatters will be studying this in more depth soon, as this is a core component to seeing our full-build Regional Rail vision happen.

 

[FK4]

We at TransitMatters will be studying this in more depth soon, as this is a core component to seeing our full-build Regional Rail vision happen.

Nice! Yes! I'm really glad to hear an institution is studying this... it's one of the biggest and most important things that gets discussed on here, despite seemingly no MBTA-level interest. Hopefully the study finds goof support and gets attention for this.

 

[tysmith95]

Along with extending the orange down to West Roxbury, I think extending it north to the center of Melrose would make sense. A new orange line stop to replace Cedar Park and Wyoming Hill on the Haverhill Line.

 

[jklo]

Main downside of Needham Green is that they would lose access to the Seaport without transferring. Timewise, since the CR had so many stops might be similar.