Rose Kennedy Greenway

^ iv also thrown this idea around dont forget there is no connection between north and south station and the greenway runs between them so it is almost a necessity.
 
In addition, knock off a lane of traffic each way from the inside to add more park where there is park and more space where there are buildings.
Click to expand...

But if you're going to knock off a lane of traffic, why not just put the light rail there? That will decrease the development cost for the parcels you designate as buildable (which will increase the amount developers are willing to pay the State).
 
AmericanFolkLegend said:
But if you're going to knock off a lane of traffic, why not just put the light rail there? That will decrease the development cost for the parcels you designate as buildable (which will increase the amount developers are willing to pay the State).
Click to expand...

I just preferred the idea of the stations being enclosed and out of the elements and all fancy pants. Hence the "at grade subway" as I mentioned it.
 
I'm not saying its a bad gimic, but let's call a Greenway trolley what it really would be--a gimic. The walk from South Station to North Station through the Financial District is a mile--a 15 to 20 minute walk. The existing transit travel time between the two is probably 12 minutes or so (during rush hour when service is most frequent) to 20 minutes or so off peak.

A Greenway trolley would have to travel 1.4 miles between S Sta and N Sta. This is comparable to the distance between Packards Corner and Kenmore on the B Line, or between Fairbanks and St Mary's on the C Line. I see no reason why the Greenway trolley, operating in the heart of downtown, could be expected to operate much better than those services.

Since a Greenway trolley would not signficantly upgrade (if at all) the currently available options, it should be thought of as an attraction--like a fountain, or a carousel.
 
I don't agree at all.

1) Even just running down the Greenway, it would be a viable alternative route for many trips and will relieve pressure on Park Street.

2) And in addition, it doesn't need to be contained to the Greenway, but can continue north - Navy Yard, residential Charlestown, even Everett? - and south through the SL tunnels to serve the Seaport and possibly residential Southie as well. These would be very heavily utilized commuter services.

3) The fact that you mention the Greenway distance is about that of Washington Square to St Mary's or Packards' Corner to Kenmore is all the more reason to have one. First of all, those are long distances to walk, and the trolley would be less about speed than convenience. Second, Comm Ave and Beacon Street are corridors which are defined in part by the streetcar -the idea of the Greenway being a coherent "corridor" worth following is currently nonexistent, and the streetcar can give a much greater definition to the space.

4) Quite simply, trolley will spur street-level activity.

5) I hear those things are awfully loud... It glides as softly as a cloud. Is there a chance the track could bend? Not on your life, my Hindu friend. What about us brain-dead slobs? You'll be given cushy jobs. Were you sent here by the devil? No, good sir, I'm on the level. The ring came off my pudding can. Take my pen knife, my good man.
 
Shepard said:
I don't agree at all.

1) Even just running down the Greenway, it would be a viable alternative route for many trips and will relieve pressure on Park Street.
Click to expand...

I can't think of any trip currently utlizing Park Street that would be diverted by a Greenway trolley.

Shepard said:
2) And in addition, it doesn't need to be contained to the Greenway, but can continue north - Navy Yard, residential Charlestown, even Everett? - and south through the SL tunnels to serve the Seaport and possibly residential Southie as well. These would be very heavily utilized commuter services.
Click to expand...

Heavily used...I'm not so sure. People complain about the Green Line, but it at least has a grade-separated exclusive tunnel once it enters central Boston. If I'm coming from Everett, I'd grab the Orange Line in Sullivan for the 10 minute ride to the Financial Dist rather than meander through Charlestown and the Greenway on a trolley. If I'm in the Navy Yard, I'll probably take the boat. A streetcar running down the length of Broadway in Southie and feeding into the Central Subway would be heavily used, but one serving lower-density City Point before passing through the Seaport and then stopping and going along the Greenway...I'm not convinced.

Shepard said:
3) The fact that you mention the Greenway distance is about that of Washington Square to St Mary's or Packards' Corner to Kenmore is all the more reason to have one. First of all, those are long distances to walk, and the trolley would be less about speed than convenience. Second, Comm Ave and Beacon Street are corridors which are defined in part by the streetcar -the idea of the Greenway being a coherent "corridor" worth following is currently nonexistent, and the streetcar can give a much greater definition to the space.
Click to expand...

Those are long distances to walk. But unlike Comm Ave or Beacon, with the Greenway, you have a shorter distance option through the Financial District that has a travel time competitive with any street-running trolley. The trolleys on Comm and Beacon are about both speed and convenience.

Shepard said:
4) Quite simply, trolley will spur street-level activity.
Click to expand...

You're probably right, but so would a ferris wheel. And since a trolley wouldn't be that much faster than walking, its primarily clientele along the Greenway would be tourists--the very same people that would otherwise be strolling along its length on foot.
 
Thousands of commuters come into North Station every day. Some of them work along the Green Line or Orange Line (Back Bay), but many others work around the core financial district by South Station. Rather than switch at Park or DTX, they have a single line to work. Reverse is true for South Station commuters who work closer to the Aquarium and beyond.

Part of what makes the idea of running the Greenway trolley south from South Station is that the infrastrcture for a tunnel already exists in the Silver Line. I'd propose running it not to City Point only, but further to Broadway Junction and down Dorchester Street to Andrew.
 
The MBTA runs a bus route (#4) between North Station and South Station that also extends into the Seaport. It provides direct service into the heart of the Financial Dist from the two CR hubs. This route only runs during the peak periods, and its frequency is only every 12-15 minutes. Like a Greenway trolley, it makes multiple stops and must contend with traffic lights and congestion. The route carries fewer than 300 people per day (ranking it no 151 among MBTA bus routes).

While I'll accept that tourists are more likely to use a train than a bus, and the same may be true for other demographics (like 20-somethings going across town for nightlife), the commuters passing through NS and SS are likely to be very rationale in their decision-making. If its not worth it to wait for a surface-running bus to get into the heart of the Financial District, then it probably won't be worth it to wait for a surface-running trolley that skirts the edge of the Financial District. If the 12-15 minute headways are what's keeping them away, perhaps 5 minute headways on Route 4 should be tested first to see if a market exists?
 
I've lived in Boston a long time, and I can't figure out how the #4 bus works. It makes little sense as a cohesive route (one way at different times of day?) and certainly doesn't ply the most straightforward route between North and South Stations. Ridership on this line says nothing about the market.

I'd say they should run a trial bus on the Greenway itself mirroring an eventual trolley route, but you know they would just call it the Platinum Line and congratulate themselves on a job well (=minimally) done.
 
Belmont, two aspects of the trolley that I think your discounting.
1. Taking a lane of traffic makes the greenway less of a median strip and less imposing to get to.
2. If you remove some of the cross streets (as members of this board have advocated many times), the trolley would be much more efficient.
 
Shepard - I agree that testing out a bus route along the Greenway makes sense. It's the only reasonable first step in determing the true market for trolleys. If you start to see overcrowding comparable to routes serving Blue Hill Ave or Chelsea, then it would be appropriate to think about higher capacity modes like LRV.

AFL - I think both of your points make trolley service more attractive. But there's a tension between the two markets people here are proposing to serve. In order to be competitive with walking and other existing modes for commuters, the trolley would need to make only a few stops at most between the CR stations. This would make it less of an "attraction" for Greenway users and tourists, and the higher speeds would create conflicts with those using the Greenway parks. A service with more frequent stops and therefore longer travel time would be used more by Greenway users/tourists, but would be less attractive for commuters.
 
Shepard said:
Thousands of commuters come into North Station every day. Some of them work along the Green Line or Orange Line (Back Bay), but many others work around the core financial district by South Station. Rather than switch at Park or DTX, they have a single line to work. Reverse is true for South Station commuters who work closer to the Aquarium and beyond.
Click to expand...

But DTX is very close to South Station. That's the key point, there are other lines that already serve the area, not just the silver and red, and one of those lines goes to North Station. I would love to see money spent on additional rail infrastructure, but I don't see this as the place that should be highest priority. I'd put all of these projects ahead of it:

Farimont conversion to HRT
OL extension to Roslindale or West Roxbury
GL extension to Dudley
Mattapan Trolley extension to Dudley (via Blue Hill Ave and Warren)

I could go on and on. These are all projects that would actually increase transit services to Boston's constituent neighborhoods, and significantly improve speed of access to downtown. A greenway trolley would mostly serve tourists.
 
today a sunbather!
123-1.jpg
 
The emptiness is almost artfully minimalistic.

Too bad the thoughtless landscaping isn't.
 
market__1280391097_9174.gif


Boston Globe - July 29, 2010
Public food market gets $10m promise
State pledges money for Greenway location

By Casey Ross, Globe Staff | July 29, 2010

Boston is finally slated to get its own downtown public food market ? a showcase for dozens of New England agricultural businesses that will sell locally grown produce, artisan cheeses, seafood, and meats.

Prospects for the market, the kind of tourist-friendly amenity long established in other major cities, jelled after the Patrick administration pledged yesterday to spend up to $10 million to prepare a state-owned location on the Rose Fitzgerald Kennedy Greenway.

Having recently rejected proposals from other developers, Patrick aides threw their support behind the nonprofit Boston Public Market Association, which is promising to make the market a window on the region?s farming heritage and burgeoning food culture. The market association will model the Boston facility after the Ferry Building Marketplace in San Francisco and Reading Terminal in Philadelphia, and expect it to be as popular a tourist attraction as those two markets.

Although the timetable remains fluid, the market is expected to open in a year to 18 months.

The administration?s backing was enthusiastically welcomed by Mayor Thomas M. Me nino, who heavily lobbied state officials to support the nonprofit group and its effort to enliven a long-vacant building along the Greenway.

?We?ve had a lot of delays, but now the governor is moving forward and saying ?enough is enough,? ?? Menino said. ?This is going to create vitality on that property and give local farmers an opportunity to sell their wares in an urban location.??

Patrick and Menino aides said they will spend the next few months devising the financial structure and physical layout of the market, which will require extensive plumbing, cold storage, and other utilities. The site is the ground floor of an office building and parking garage at the Haymarket transit station, on the corner of Hanover and Blackstone streets.

Talk of a downtown food market has gone on for years, with a series of false starts and debate over where to put it. But within the last year developments set the stage for a breakthrough.

The first was a 2009 study by the city that zeroed in on a location for the market. The study recommended a food market district be formed around the existing weekend produce and fish vendors on Blackstone Street, an ideal location for the market because of its proximity to the Greenway and other tourist destinations, such as Faneuil Hall.

More recently, Menino implored state officials to back the public market association and provide the money necessary to get it off the ground.

The association has many members with deep experience in either the food business, politics, or real estate development. Donald Wiest, its president, is a real estate lawyer who previously worked for the Boston Redevelopment Authority. Other members include Howard Leibowitz, a former top City Hall aide, as well as several prominent farming advocates and former state agricultural officials.

The lack of a central market has long been a black mark on the city?s food scene. The last traditional market closed in the 1950s, when buildings in Faneuil Hall Marketplace fell so deeply into disrepair that the federal government threatened to close them, forcing most of the vendors to leave.

For decades, Boston remained one of the few major American cities without a venue to showcase its local foods and agricultural products. Seattle has Pike Place; Baltimore has Lexington Market; Cleveland has the West Side Market. Even Portland, Maine, has a standing public food market.

?It has not been simple or easy, but we?re thrilled to be moving forward,?? said Wiest. ?This will showcase the extraordinary quality of food produced throughout New England and bring north of 5 million people a year through this location.??

Some local food producers said the market will provide a significant economic boost by giving them direct access to customers, instead of selling to wholesalers or local restaurants.

?Today, we can only get to customers directly through our website or through our place in Duxbury,?? said Chris Sherman of Island Creek Oysters. ?This is a great way to grow the retail side of the business.??

For many local farms, access to a reliable customer base is a make-or-break issue. Massachusetts farms rely heavily on local markets and farm stands because of the lack of major agricultural distributors in the state. For most, profit margins are razor thin.

The market is slated to go into a five-story building that was built earlier this decade but, except for the parking garage, was never occupied. Its Greenway location will give the Boston market high visibility, and allow sellers to tap into a steady stream of foot traffic.

Some funding issues still need to be worked out. For example, the $10 million in state funds will be allocated over time, with only about $4 million likely to be released in the near term. Given the $7 million it will cost to open, the public market association will have to raise millions, from either private sources or government grants, to start construction. Wiest said he believes the state?s commitment will help the association raise the needed funds. ?It?s a gap we think is closeable,?? he said.

Already, the market association has gained public support from top Boston chefs, including Todd English and Barbara Lynch, who appear on the group?s website. Patrick aides also pledged to assist with the financial plan and to try for funding from the US Department of Agriculture.

While the administration is committed to the market on the ground floor, it still must attract tenants for the upper floors of the building. The state Department of Transportation is planning a series of public meetings to discuss uses for that space, as well as development of an adjacent parcel along Blackstone Street.

Casey Ross can be reached at cross@globe.com.
? Copyright 201
Click to expand...
 
Hope Haymarket pushcart market survives all this. It's mostly not local produce, but it serves recent immigrants and poor folk with dirt-cheap products passed over by supermarkets at the wholesale level. You may get a few bad apples, but it's still more than worth it if you're not a middle class tourist. Go an hour before closing time and watch the dazzling bargains appear.

The genteel farmers market and this would make piquant neighbors. Very urban.
 
I still dont understand the overwhelming desire to attract tourists. When I go on vacations and to markets in other cities, I don't grocery shop. I go to restaurants to eat. I understand the foot traffic argument, but I'd feel its more important to get regular business from neighborhood residents.

The spot is appropriate enough, i just don't like their rationale behind it.
 
If they think they'll attract tourists, let them think that. More importantly, this is a perfectly valid neighborhood amenity that will no doubt attract at least the well-heeled residents that still like to cook. Or maybe their personal chefs...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top