Rose Kennedy Greenway

[JeffDowntown]

Cars (and trucks and buses) provide a large majority of the transportation utility.

Spending tens of billions on infrastructure and then hobbling it with inadequate lanes along the greenway is in the crazy category.

This definitely raises some pretty fundamental policy questions.

1) Do we really want cars (and trucks, less concerned with buses) to provide the majority of transportation utility in the core of our urban center?

2) Where is the commentary on induced demand? More lanes means more induced demand.

The Seaport traffic feed into the Greenway (at the expense of proper mass transit options) is pretty much the poster child for transportation planning failure. The State can spend $100 million on a parking garage in the Seaport, but not a dime to improve the woefully inadequate Silver Line?

 

[chmeeee]

Cars (and trucks and buses) provide a large majority of the transportation utility.

False. Driving makes up 46% of commute trips in Boston.

http://goboston2030.org/flipbook/files/Boston-Today.pdf

People who have the option of not driving but still choose to drive love to use the strawman of people who have to drive. There is more than enough capacity to accommodate freight and the needs of people who don't have the option of bike/walk/transit. The congestion is caused by the additional people who could choose another mode but don't.

 

[tangent]

False. Driving makes up 46% of commute trips in Boston.

http://goboston2030.org/flipbook/files/Boston-Today.pdf

People who have the option of not driving but still choose to drive love to use the strawman of people who have to drive. There is more than enough capacity to accommodate freight and the needs of people who don't have the option of bike/walk/transit. The congestion is caused by the additional people who could choose another mode but don't.

Half of less than half.. is false and misleading. That number only includes people that live in and commute to Boston. Which is pretty damning of mass transit if 46% of people that actually live inside Boston still have to drive to work inside of Boston.

 

[Coyote137]

Half of less than half.. is false and misleading. That number only includes people that live in and commute to Boston. Which is pretty damning of mass transit if 46% of people that actually live inside Boston still have to drive to work inside of Boston.

This is absurd, and shows your bias on this topic. How on Earth would 46% of people who live in Boston ever HAVE to drive to work inside the city? This is is exactly what chmeeee was talking about above. If people who could easily walk/bike/bus/train did so, there would be more capacity on our roads.

You're correct that we've spent a lot of money creating the road network, which is why so many people drive. Owning and operating a vehicle has been subsidized by billions of dollars of transportation spending.

But that is not an excuse to keep doing it. Having done thing A in the past for years does not, in and of itself, justify continuing to do thing A indefinitely into the future to the exclusion of other options.

Removing lanes on the Greenway is the kind of small shift in the other direction that allows us to do something other than thing A forever. But Jebus forbid we do anything to suggest that people should not be attached at the hip to their cars.

 

[Man about town]

This is absurd, and shows your bias on this topic. How on Earth would 46% of people who live in Boston ever HAVE to drive to work inside the city? This is is exactly what chmeeee was talking about above. If people who could easily walk/bike/bus/train did so, there would be more capacity on our roads.

That mode share chart is a little confusing, but as I read it:
229,000 people from elsewhere in the region commute in to the city of Boston every day. Of those, 131,000 either drive alone or carpool. That's 57%.
97,600 people from the City of Boston leave the city for work. Of those, about 60,000 drive. That's 62%.
165,000 people start and end their commute in Boston. Of those, about 56,000 drive. That's 34%.

So overall, there are about 492,000 people who live and/or work in Boston. 247,000 of those - 50% on the nose - drive to work.

The point is, while Boston is more unipolar than most cities and certainly more walkable and has a (believe it or not) relatively high-quality transit system that connects outlying neighborhoods and suburbs to the core, we still do need to make room for cars.
We have a regional job market and a regional labor force. That's a good thing. Certainly businesses in downtown Boston benefit from access to suburban workers, and city residents benefit from being able to access jobs in the suburbs. A lot of those people are going to drive. That's just the way it is.

But the issue isn't really people who live in Boston driving to jobs in Boston. Unless you live south of the Orange Line in West Roxbury or Hyde Park, or have some weird crosstown commute (Brighton to Dorchester, say), or work odd hours (in which case you're probably not part of "the traffic") that really doesn't make sense. I'd bet that 34% will continue to drop.

 

[Coyote137]

The point is, while Boston is more unipolar than most cities and certainly more walkable and has a (believe it or not) relatively high-quality transit system that connects outlying neighborhoods and suburbs to the core, we still do need to make room for cars.
We have a regional job market and a regional labor force. That's a good thing. Certainly businesses in downtown Boston benefit from access to suburban workers, and city residents benefit from being able to access jobs in the suburbs. A lot of those people are going to drive. That's just the way it is.

Yes, many people will drive and I have never said we should ban cars or auto travel. I have a car, which I drove just yesterday. But removing lanes from the Greenway is hardly preventing suburbanites from accessing jobs in the urban core.

It's also true that many people choose to conduct their lifestyles based upon cars to the psychological exclusion of other modes of travel. They simply will never take a bus or train for whatever reasons, be it perceived safety, arrogance, germ issues, having never been exposed to transit as a young person, or whatever else it is, without being given incentives to do so and disincentives to drive. Nonetheless, nobody forced them to buy a home in a place with limited travel options, and nobody is continuing to force them to ignore transit as a viable option.

Moreover, my prior list of the externalities of auto travel have yet to be addressed at all, let alone in so much as a sloppy or incomplete way. Ignoring them doesn't make them go away.

*Slightly shifting* our society toward one that rewards travel behaviors with fewer externalities is not the end of the world for motorists or for the economy.

 

[fatnoah]

It's also true that many people choose to conduct their lifestyles based upon cars to the psychological exclusion of other modes of travel

This is so true. I live in the West End with Mrs. FatNoah and FatNoah Jr. I walk/bike/take the T to my office in Cambridge. My wife drives to work in Waltham.

For the last couple weeks, our in-laws have been staying with us. They're originally North Shore but now live in Florida. My father in law was going to meet a friend who lives near Dover, NH. When I overheard him discussing a plan that required my mother in law to drop him off at the liquor store on I-95 so his friend could pick him up and drive north, I suggested taking the train. After all, it's a 5 minute walk to N. Station, 3 minutes of which is waiting for a walk signal. It was like I suggested hiring a mule train or something. My father in law totally could not comprehend any solution that did not involve driving a car.

 

[Coyote137]

I had an aunt and uncle visit me in Cambridge last year (they're from rural New Hampshire), and when they arrived they asked if we'd be walking downtown or driving. Not wanting to spend an hour walking from my residence in Cambridgeport to where we were headed, I said we'd be using the subway (Central Sq).

They looked at me like I had just said I was the king of Venus. "The subway?!?!"

Yes, that's how I get to work everyday.

On the train, my aunt looked at my wife, and asked incredulously, "You do this every day???"

Mind you, the trains were running very efficiently that day, and we encountered no muggers, pimps, piles of vomit or feces, or people brandishing weapons. Nobody was sneezed on, coughed on, slapped, kicked, propositioned, panhandled, rubbed, grabbed, leered at, robbed, or attacked.

It was truly a miracle.

/sarcasm

 

[Charlie_mta]

Darn! Sounds like you missed all the fun. LOL

 

[shawn]

This is so true. I live in the West End with Mrs. FatNoah and FatNoah Jr. I walk/bike/take the T to my office in Cambridge. My wife drives to work in Waltham.

For the last couple weeks, our in-laws have been staying with us. They're originally North Shore but now live in Florida. My father in law was going to meet a friend who lives near Dover, NH. When I overheard him discussing a plan that required my mother in law to drop him off at the liquor store on I-95 so his friend could pick him up and drive north, I suggested taking the train. After all, it's a 5 minute walk to N. Station, 3 minutes of which is waiting for a walk signal. It was like I suggested hiring a mule train or something. My father in law totally could not comprehend any solution that did not involve driving a car.

I think a big part of this comes down to exposure to non-car options. I grew up in Foxboro, rode the train a few times into Boston as a teen, but otherwise drove everywhere because that's all I ever knew.

I've lived in the middle of Tokyo for the past 15 years and have never owned a car during that time. I walk 3 minutes from my house to the station; the train takes me to work and back (and everywhere else). My company pays for the monthly pass, just as every other company in Japan does for all employees as a standard, basic benefit of employment. Is it fair to compare Tokyo's transit to, well, anywhere else's on Earth? Not really. Possibly Osaka's or Seoul's, but that's it IMO. But I now think "train" as my default transit option. And when my wife and I move back to the US, we will still be thinking "train". I never would have thought this way without the (positive) exposure Japan has given me.

Boston transit is actually a lot better than most places'. Central coverage density is strong, even by Northeast Asian standards. The problem with the T - as has been pointed out and as applies to any North American system sans NYC - is that the crosstown options are nonexistent. This makes using the T for anything other than getting to a centrally-located office or Downtown location / event a grueling trek. Not sure what we can do about that, other than getting the Urban Ring up and running.

 

[falcon42]

Cool perspective. However, isn't Japan known for its extremely clean/safe transit systems? I remember seeing a 60 Minutes or something on the transportation minister and how remarkably clean he keeps everything.

On the other hand, riding the Orange line a few times and you'll be exposed to bodily fluids on the ground, seats from the 1970s, trash, maybe a few addicts passing out (on your shoulder). Its no surprise people hate taking the T, its just not a good experience. I deal with it, but its a painful 20 minutes or so.

 

[JeffDowntown]

Cool perspective. However, isn't Japan known for its extremely clean/safe transit systems? I remember seeing a 60 Minutes or something on the transportation minister and how remarkably clean he keeps everything.

On the other hand, riding the Orange line a few times and you'll be exposed to bodily fluids on the ground, seats from the 1970s, trash, maybe a few addicts passing out (on your shoulder). Its no surprise people hate taking the T, its just not a good experience. I deal with it, but its a painful 20 minutes or so.

I guess I must be more tolerant of issues other people find very unpleasant. Do you occasionally run into the issues noted on the Orange Line -- Yes. All the time? No.

Overall I find the people on the Orange Line to be more pleasant to be around that the typical crowd at the St. Patrick's Day Parade in Southie, and Bostonians seem to tolerate that just fine.

 

[Padre Mike]

Orange line from Malden into the city...usually just fine. City to JP...depends... JP back to Malden...interesting characters sometimes. Never encountered bodily fluids, but certainly a few homeless kin.

 

[Coyote137]

Well I used to live near Forest Hills, and never in my time on the Orange Line did anyone pass out on my shoulder. Although I may have almost passed out in the Chinatown station once after a few cocktails at the Tam.

 

[Charlie_mta]

The cause of problems on transit isn't transit, it is homelessness, substance abuse and lawlessness endemic in society today. I used to ride all over Boston and beyond on all of the subway and light rail lines when I was 9 years old, back in 1959. Never hassled by anyone. Of course I wouldn't advise it now. The fault of transit? No.

 

[TheRifleman]

The cause of problems on transit isn't transit, it is homelessness, substance abuse and lawlessness endemic in society today. I used to ride all over Boston and beyond on all of the subway and light rail lines when I was 9 years old, back in 1959. Never hassled by anyone. Of course I wouldn't advise it now. The fault of transit? No.

Don't forget the Boston common. Just give it time the greenway might be filled with victims of homelessness, substance abuse victims--- the taxpayers are going to have to step up and get these people out of the street possibly bring back institutions or some type of asylum to help these souls come back to society if that is even possible.

There really should be an investigation into the pharmaceutical companies and the medical profession concerning this country's OxyContin problem.

I really find it interesting that the heroin epidemic has exploded in this country since we declared war n Afghanistan which just happens to control 90% of the poppy fields that make this drug.

 

[TomOfBoston]

The cause of problems on transit isn't transit, it is homelessness, substance abuse and lawlessness endemic in society today. I used to ride all over Boston and beyond on all of the subway and light rail lines when I was 9 years old, back in 1959. Never hassled by anyone. Of course I wouldn't advise it now. The fault of transit? No.

Even the once pristine stations on the Montréal metro are now de facto homeless shelters.

 

[Man about town]

The cause of problems on transit isn't transit, it is homelessness, substance abuse and lawlessness endemic in society today. I used to ride all over Boston and beyond on all of the subway and light rail lines when I was 9 years old, back in 1959. Never hassled by anyone. Of course I wouldn't advise it now. The fault of transit? No.

Seriously?
I ride the T every day, mostly Red and Green, sometimes Orange. Trying to remember the last time I was "hassled" by anyone (and it's not like I'm some big scary dude). Yes there are homeless people here and there, but that's life in the city, and for the most part they're not bothering anybody.
It felt a lot worse when I was nine years old and rode all over Boston on it, back in 1989. There were a lot more troubled folks around, on the streets after Reagan shut down mental hospitals.

 

[bakgwailo]

Seriously?
I ride the T every day, mostly Red and Green, sometimes Orange. Trying to remember the last time I was "hassled" by anyone (and it's not like I'm some big scary dude). Yes there are homeless people here and there, but that's life in the city, and for the most part they're not bothering anybody.
It felt a lot worse when I was nine years old and rode all over Boston on it, back in 1989. There were a lot more troubled folks around, on the streets after Reagan shut down mental hospitals.

Seriously - when I was growing up and riding the Orange line, I was the only one of my friends that I knew that never actually got mugged on it at some point. Nowadays? Its totally fine, and much, much better than what it was 15-25+ years ago.

 

[estyle]

Seriously - when I was growing up and riding the Orange line, I was the only one of my friends that I knew that never actually got mugged on it at some point. Nowadays? Its totally fine, and much, much better than what it was 15-25+ years ago.

This, I ride the Orange line to and from the south part of the city all the time. Yes, it's super grubby (the dark paneling with the loud carpet seats and yellow lighting is just awful) and occasionally the cars even leak. But the people are almost never an issue. Noisy students are probably the worst and, honestly, they aren't that bad. I don't like to praise the Orange line for fear it will get even more crowded, but I'll take it over the Green and Red.