Rose Kennedy Greenway

Some need their cars all day.
Whom should I be picturing here? Ice Cream Truck? UPS? Uber? Home appraiser? Real Estate agent?

And why should our cities be designed to deliver such people so many lane-miles at below market value?

I would say that only those who need to bring a big load of tools (construction trades with more/heavier tools than can be carried by hand) need to bring a vehicle into the city.

But mostly center cities are what they are because they're set up to do increasingly weightless transactions (education, research, finance, accounting, law, trade) or worker services (food, fitness, entertainment)

We haul less and less into the city to trade stuff (we can't afford to hold inventory and we certainly can't afford to hold it in the CBD...eg no hay at the haymarket, post office moving from South Station, )

Cars are a truly awful use of scarce space. In a free-market / market-based-pricing of our street space they'd mostly be quickly outbid by pedestrians, cyclists, and HOVs, all of which deliver better person-miles per lane-square-foot.

Just look at how much more mobility per square foot the modes are delivering in this time lapse:

https://vimeo.com/223171024

http://nyc.streetsblog.org/2017/06/...c-will-do-just-fine-without-all-this-parking/
 
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Doesn't seem absurd at all. There is a multibillion dollar highway underneath the Greenway that has more than enough capacity to put cars on those roads.

If Boston wanted to cut itself off from the suburbs (except by mass transit that takes twice as long to get anywhere on) it should have done so before accepting the Big Dig or the original central artery project.

I never suggested that Boston should cut itself off from the suburbs. I'm suggesting that the streets are too wide for this area. Keep building that strawman though.

And unless you are completely divorced from economically benefiting/interacting with all those drivers, their jobs, their income, their tax dollars, their spending then you do not get to deny that their contribution to Global Warming is your fault too.

So unless I become a hermit, go off grid, and grow my own food, I'm responsible for every asshole who decides to sit in traffic in the middle of a city rather than taking public transit, biking, walking, ride-sharing, etc. Interesting rationalization. Not one I've heard before.
 
Whom should I be picturing here? Ice Cream Truck? UPS? Uber? Home appraiser? Real Estate agent?

And why should our cities be designed to deliver such people so many lane-miles at below market value?

I would say that only those who need to bring a big load of tools (construction trades with more/heavier tools than can be carried by hand) need to bring a vehicle into the city.

But mostly center cities are what they are because they're set up to do increasingly weightless transactions (education, research, finance, accounting, law, trade) or worker services (food, fitness, entertainment)

We haul less and less into the city to trade stuff (we can't afford to hold inventory and we certainly can't afford to hold it in the CBD...eg no hay at the haymarket, post office moving from South Station, )

Cars are a truly awful use of scarce space. In a free-market / market-based-pricing of our street space they'd mostly be quickly outbid by pedestrians, cyclists, and HOVs, all of which deliver better person-miles per lane-square-foot.

Just look at how much more mobility per square foot the modes are delivering in this time lapse:

https://vimeo.com/223171024

http://nyc.streetsblog.org/2017/06/...c-will-do-just-fine-without-all-this-parking/


You should be picturing real life. Are you that isolated that you think UPS and ice cream trucks are the only vehicles that are necessary?

In fact, your "weightless transactions (education, research, finance, accounting, law, trade)" indeed need vehicles in many cases. I have peers in law that travel in and out of the city daily in order to meet with clients, attend court (yes most of the states courts are outside of Boston). Also, do you know what most accountants in Boston do? They travel to their audit clients. Hence why noone at the Big 4 has assigned desks, because they are in and out of the office constantly.

The fact is that more than just construction workers need their cars on a daily basis, including those in your weightless category.
 
Some people need cars, yes, and that is fine, but not all do. The point is that the assumption should not be that everyone needs to drive. Our roads need to reflect modal equity - one or two car lanes depending on volume, protected cycle tracks &/or transit ROWs, and generous sidewalks. The entire ROW should not be ceded to cars only.

The parking rates downtown are at least keeping one person away from driving & using the T instead: my coworker. She exclaimed this morning that she'd drive if the parking rates in the area (DTX) weren't so expensive. I rolled my eyes and smiled. Pricing works.
 
You should move back here so you can too become jaded to the point on being able to crap on things that are in general improvements.

cca

Haha yea maybe I will...it's depressing to see how miserable many posters here are, to be perfectly honest. I understand wanting thing to be as good as possible, because that's what I want too, but some can't be happy with anything.
 
New bike racks at Rowes Wharf Plaza (near Trillium Beer Garden):

RoseKennedyGreenway‏ @HelloGreenway

You asked... we listened! Six new bike racks went into the park today, near Rowes Wharf Plaza and adjacent to @trilliumgarden! 🚴🏾*♀️🚴

https://twitter.com/HelloGreenway/status/880125903539511296

DDbV1uDXoAAkRUQ.jpg
 
Haha yea maybe I will...it's depressing to see how miserable many posters here are, to be perfectly honest. I understand wanting thing to be as good as possible, because that's what I want too, but some can't be happy with anything.

That seems to be mostly what's left of the community here at aB... it's too bad. Many regular posters (myself included) from the last five years just don't engage much anymore.
 
Mhm. The thing is the new posters are so spoiled and don't even realize it, because we get like 2 new proposals per week now and they get to be like yea but retail...its a box...stumpy...shadows...and weren't around back when getting a 350 footer was big news and probably the most significant tower of the year. Oh well things change and on the other side of the coin there is so much more material now its insane. Not more material because of quality members but just the shear volume of projects going up is going to lend itself to lots of pictures, renders......so that part is definitely nice. To me I honestly I think its better now for that second reason, just sift thru the bs
 
Mhm. The thing is the new posters are so spoiled and don't even realize it, because we get like 2 new proposals per week now and they get to be like yea but retail...its a box...stumpy...shadows...and weren't around back when getting a 350 footer was big news and probably the most significant tower of the year. Oh well things change and on the other side of the coin there is so much more material now its insane. Not more material because of quality members but just the shear volume of projects going up is going to lend itself to lots of pictures, renders......so that part is definitely nice. To me I honestly I think its better now for that second reason, just sift thru the bs

Oh, those kids today!

Oh, those Kids Today!
 
Just returned from a visit to Boston after 3 yrs. away. I've got to say the Greenway has been tremendously improved. Not only has everything grown nice and tall and wide, the edge plantings have filled in and now the paths truly seem isolated from the streets. The North End parks are truly beautiful: new plantings of boxwood and taller evergreens, lots of new perennials, etc. I was pleasantly surprised and impressed, hoping of course that this would happen but fearing a lack of funding would jeopardize progress. The only regret: the zodiac sculptures around the fountain have been taken down, and returned I presume to the owner. Color me green for Greenway!
 
For some reason, people can be incredibly irrational when it comes to their cars. Giving other people choices does not require your choice to be taken away. If you need to drive or want to drive, you can keep driving. No one will stop you. The problem now is that not everyone wants to drive, but many people are forced to because other options don't exist or are not safe. If people want to bike but don't because the streets aren't safe for it, we should make it safe. If people would like to ride transit, but it's too slow and inconvenient, we should make it faster and better. The more people who choose to not drive, the less congestion there is for the people who still do drive. It should be a win-win, but for some reason, some people don't see it that way.
 
For some reason, people can be incredibly irrational when it comes to their cars. Giving other people choices does not require your choice to be taken away. If you need to drive or want to drive, you can keep driving. No one will stop you. The problem now is that not everyone wants to drive, but many people are forced to because other options don't exist or are not safe. If people want to bike but don't because the streets aren't safe for it, we should make it safe. If people would like to ride transit, but it's too slow and inconvenient, we should make it faster and better. The more people who choose to not drive, the less congestion there is for the people who still do drive. It should be a win-win, but for some reason, some people don't see it that way.

Sure, where it is a win-win do it. But where you just spent tens of billions of dollars on transportation infrastructure don't throttle the surface roads right next to the on and off ramps unless it actually makes sense to do so for transportation reasons.

The issue that I take with the let's make everything else better and car transportation worse approach is that it is based on the faulty premise that car transportation is inherently bad and that it is somehow going to go away when there is very little rationality to either prejudice.

All modes of transportation have pluses and minuses, which is why we have those forms of transportation and not just trains, not just bicycles, not just cars, not just side walks.

No modern city exists or has existed without cars. And before cars we had horses and horse drawn carriages filling the role of cars and most cities were much smaller. Even Manhattan has cars despite a very dense and well laid out subway grid.

Certainly there are places where it makes sense to close streets and make them more walk able. Lane reduction on the Greenway is one of those suggestions that seems purely anti-car for the irrational sake of being anti-car.
 
I'm always finding the mass transit is too slow argument to be a made up argument. Maybe I'm lucky. But, unless I leave at 5am to go to work, and then stick around until 7:30pm or later. The train wins every time.

If I leave at 5, I can drive to Kendall from Brockton in 40-45 minutes. Even at 7:30pm, it's going to be an hour or more home.

Leave home at 6:00am, and I'll be in work by maybe 7:30 if I'm lucky.

Most days. I leave home at 5:20 - 5:25 on my bike. Catch the 5:40 train, and walk into my office at roughly 6:40. That is faster than my car at that time of day, every time. Plus I'm not aggravated sitting in traffic will thousands of other a-holes cutting each other off, getting a tired leg from working the clutch, blah blah blah.

I used to have this discussion with an old guy in the office, who drove in from Somerset everyday. His argument was, it wasn't any faster (ie. same amount of time) to take the train versus sitting in a car. My argument is the lack of stress sitting on a train. Having done it for 12 years now, I can attest to it. Particularly as I drive in occasionally, and hate it every time.

The real problem I see, and where the transit time argument makes some sense, is another dude I work with. Takes the red line from Mattapan everyday, and that takes a good hour. To go a bit over 9 miles if driving.

People in the city proper, should have much better transit access than they do in areas. There should be no real reason to be in the city limits, and drive everywhere (discounting hyde park and west roxbury type areas I suppose.) Maybe, the fairmont line upgrades help this somewhat, but I doubt much of a dent.

Just about anyone commuting into the city from without in a car, has almost no real argument against taking public transit. Contractors, and let's say 10% of business employees who need to travel within the city limits I'll give a pass to. The BS arguments don't hold up for me. The biggest issue I see is the chicken and egg ones.

Trains are not frequent enough so I don't ride..... we don't run more trains because not enough people ride the train.

I tailor my day around the train schedule. So many others could, but will not. Too stubborn? In most cases probably.

What this all mean? 6 lanes around the greenway is ridiculous. I'd live with 4, and 30 extra feet of width to make a real park through the city, and the world would not experience carmageddon. Or, keep it as 6, but with grade separated bus lanes taking up 2 of them.
 
Mass transit wins on cost/time at rush hour if you don't have to make too many transfers and you live and work relatively close to a station or stop.

In many other scenarios cars win if your travel involves distances farther than you could walk or bike, and that travel involves a beginning or end point outside of the immediate downtown Boston area. Even during rush hour that is often true.

Edit: Don't believe me. Just take a look at the desktop version of Google Maps put in various beginning and end points in and around the city and play with the time of days. You are going to find some big differences in various scenarios where sometimes cars win and sometimes transit wins.
 
Mass transit wins on cost/time at rush hour if you don't have to make too many transfers and you live and work relatively close to a station or stop.

This. I lived on the South Coast for a while. I could drive 20 minutes to Middleborough/Lakeville, board, and then walk 25 minutes from South Station to my office. It was close to a wash time-wise. For many people driving was quicker because it allowed them to go essentially door to door. But for anyone living close to the M/L and working near South Station, there was no contest. The train easily saved 1/2 hour or more each way.


On a different note, it looks like London is besting Boston at the urban zipline game too:

http://www.cntraveler.com/story/lon...s-fastest-urban-zip-line?mbid=social_facebook
 
The issue that I take with the let's make everything else better and car transportation worse approach is that it is based on the faulty premise that car transportation is inherently bad and that it is somehow going to go away when there is very little rationality to either prejudice.

There is an argument to be made that car transportation is very space inefficient: cars take up more space on the road and need parking on both ends of a trip, which takes a LOT of physical space.

But really, for me, when it comes to making the alternatives more appealing, it usually results in taking space from cars because that's where most of the space is currently allocated. Our sidewalks are generally already pretty narrow and in many cases should be wider. It's not that I have anything against cars, but if we want bike lanes and bus lanes, the space has to come from somewhere.
 
There are also a decent amount of people in the city limits (Charlestown, Southie, South End etc) that actually work in the burbs but live in the city. Mostly professionals <30. They are at the big tech companies up in Burlington or on the 128 belt.

Find a transit option that gets you up there in less time than a car? Doesn't exist. I did the drive from the city to the 128 belt for 3 years and it was miserable but there was no transit option other than a 2 hour bus. So yes, I was contributing to the traffic everyday driving in/out of the city, but for lack of a better option.
 
There are also a decent amount of people in the city limits (Charlestown, Southie, South End etc) that actually work in the burbs but live in the city. Mostly professionals <30. They are at the big tech companies up in Burlington or on the 128 belt.

Find a transit option that gets you up there in less time than a car? Doesn't exist. I did the drive from the city to the 128 belt for 3 years and it was miserable but there was no transit option other than a 2 hour bus. So yes, I was contributing to the traffic everyday driving in/out of the city, but for lack of a better option.

Reiterating - no one suggests that transit and bikes can or ever will work for everyone's commute. That is fine. We are saying that in the few areas where people move around by means other than car, maybe we can get some of the 99.9% of transportation infrastructure reallocated from cars to other modes. It isn't a big ask. Cars have the lion-share of the pie. Actually cars have the leviathon-share of the pie. Toss a few crumbs in downtown/CBD areas, jeez.
 
Sure, where it is a win-win do it. But where you just spent tens of billions of dollars on transportation infrastructure don't throttle the surface roads right next to the on and off ramps unless it actually makes sense to do so for transportation reasons.

The issue that I take with the let's make everything else better and car transportation worse approach is that it is based on the faulty premise that car transportation is inherently bad and that it is somehow going to go away when there is very little rationality to either prejudice.

All modes of transportation have pluses and minuses, which is why we have those forms of transportation and not just trains, not just bicycles, not just cars, not just side walks.

No modern city exists or has existed without cars. And before cars we had horses and horse drawn carriages filling the role of cars and most cities were much smaller. Even Manhattan has cars despite a very dense and well laid out subway grid.

Certainly there are places where it makes sense to close streets and make them more walk able. Lane reduction on the Greenway is one of those suggestions that seems purely anti-car for the irrational sake of being anti-car.

Off-topic, I guess, but since you're talking about it: Cars are demonstrably worse in many ways, for a variety of externality reasons, which give ample motivation to eliminate lanes.

- The pollution, which is not fully borne by gasoline taxes; people get asthma and a host of other public health problems in ways that walking/biking/transit do not cause.
- They are inherently anti-social vehicles that produce people with bunker-like or pod-like mentalities that manifest in a number of ways, not least of which is road rage. Get a rational person behind the wheel of a car, and see how quickly their behavior resembles that of a sociopath.
- They are part-and-parcel of unsustainable land use patterns that simply would not exist *without* automobiles. These land use patterns include energy usage way off the charts compared with other transportation and land use patterns.
- This energy usage includes gigantic infrastructure needs that cost more per capita than urban (or strictly rural) energy usage. Get rid of the mortgage interest deduction on income taxes, and we might start to have a solution to these costs.
- The above items feed into the additional problem of social isolation and sorting of people into class/income/race based geographic areas with not enough integration.
- Higher incidents of safety problems - lots of people die because of motor vehicle collisions. It's typically one of the highest causes of death, especially for young people.
- Wars for fossil fuels, which I suppose can be solved by electrification, presuming the electricity comes from renewable/domestic sources, notwithstanding past damage already inflicted.
- Climate change, which can presumably be solved as well by electrification, notwithstanding past damage already inflicted.
- Parking costs ($$$, environmental damage, waste of urban space, etc.)

I'm sure there are more, but this is a good list for starters.

Edit: I edit to note that some will assume full automation/electrification/ridesharing of cars will effectively solve most of the above. I suppose we shall see on that, but past damage, infrastructure costs, and ant-social tendencies (and sorting/isolation) will remain in the least.
 
Reiterating - no one suggests that transit and bikes can or ever will work for everyone's commute. That is fine. We are saying that in the few areas where people move around by means other than car, maybe we can get some of the 99.9% of transportation infrastructure reallocated from cars to other modes. It isn't a big ask. Cars have the lion-share of the pie. Actually cars have the leviathon-share of the pie. Toss a few crumbs in downtown/CBD areas, jeez.

Cars (and trucks and buses) provide a large majority of the transportation utility.

Spending tens of billions on infrastructure and then hobbling it with inadequate lanes along the greenway is in the crazy category.
 

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