Seaport Neighborhood - Infill and Discussion

[George_Apley]

Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

The streets are the worst part. The buildings will build out, and Seaport Square will hopefully shape up to be the destination they're trumpeting it as. Seaport Blvd is a mess though. It's exactly what Campbell describes; a highway designed by highway engineers.

 

[pel_north]

Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

I think that they should cut out the left lanes on both sides and place something really cool to act as a "welcome" to Seaport and the rest of south of the city.

 

[elemenoh]

Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

The streets are the worst part. The buildings will build out, and Seaport Square will hopefully shape up to be the destination they're trumpeting it as. Seaport Blvd is a mess though. It's exactly what Campbell describes; a highway designed by highway engineers.

The disturbing part of this for me is that Seaport Blvd actually looks pretty decent in the Seaport Square PNF (circa 2008). It's nicely landscaped with trees and a planted median. But that's the same PNF that says the whole Seaport Square will be fully built out by 2014, and it's really just getting started now.

Sad thing is that the city is deferring all of these improvements to the developers rather than doing them itself. That's why we get the hideous state of affairs today with oddball pavers from parcel to parcel and the inconsistent street lamps on D St. The present implementation is completely piecemeal and ends up pretty incoherent.

 

[Shepard]

Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

I don't think we should lament the planning... we can work with what we have. Seaport Blvd is wide, certainly, but here's a model I worked on some time ago to see what the potential is:

That's one lane in each direction with street parking and protected bike lane. You could still maintain two lanes without street parking and achieve a similar effect.

 

[datadyne007]

Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

Hmm, a Comm. Ave Mall of sorts... Not bad. That's definitely making the best of a bad situation.

I still side with the Seaport being an urban planning failure, especially now that many buildings are built and are being built up to the current sidewalks, eliminating pretty much all possibility of having an impact by narrowing the boulevards. You could narrow them, but then you'd just end up with larger dead empty sidewalks. I like how your solution looks at the center of the street instead of the sides to help the urbanism and makes crossing the streets more pleasant.

 

[TheRifleman]

Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

The Seaport district, the Innovation District whatever you want to call at this point is a missed opportunity.
This will never be a unique destination area like the North End, Fannuel Hall, Greenway, Boston Common or Backbay. Not even close

In the end the Innovation District rebrands itself to the Seaport Office/Retail store--- Park/restaurant/Convention Center: This is a disgrace to development (unless your a suburban developer-building massive office park)

Next stop on the SILVER-LINE BUS--

 

[SeamusMcFly]

Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

The Seaport district, the Innovation District whatever you want to call at this point is a missed opportunity.
This will never be a unique destination area like the North End, Fannuel Hall, Greenway, Boston Common or Backbay. Not even close
--

Destination for who? To whom is the Back Bay a destination? Out of towners I would think are the ones who see it as a destination. Based on them feeding the monster, this will become the same type of destination. It will have many of the same shops, the same hip and/or sports bars, the same big bucks restaurants, etc. Plus that one thing you don't really get over on Boylston or Newbury.... the water front. But, it will be much more accessible to a large population of people. Mainly those that don't want to take mass transit, or those that don't want to transfer while on mass transit. Many out of towners absolutely hate getting on the green line. They like their own space.

Those who do come into South Station on the Commuter or Red Line will like the idea of the easy access to the waterfront and all the things listed above. In the nice weather months, folks will have no problem walking over to the seaport and enjoying themselves doing so. Also, those that have no problem changing from one line to another, will have no issue changing to Silver from Red, as it's the easiest transfer in the system in my opinion. Easy for the commuter rail folks as well.

Also, the other out of towners, those from out of State who just flew in for short stays will populate this area as they already do. They will even more when the hotels are completed. If they are in the area for a big expo, they want to be as close as possible. If they are in town to meet with the businesses in the seaport, again they will stay and enjoy this area.

The greenway is not a destination, ad I'm not sure it ever will be a true destination. It's a nice break from the city, and a nice place to stroll and stop if you have the kids with you or whatnot. It makes walking to the Garden a better option for many.

The Common is a destination, but not one that could, would, or should ever be emulated in the city, so not sure why that's on your list.

Faneuil Hall is a huge destination, but it's a small area comparatively, and is geared towards tourists mainly, or the rowdier drinking crowds. It's gotten more upscale food wise, stores wise. It's a great place in general for a city to have, and again not sure why we'd compare to it. It works for the reasons it does, but no one should consider trying to build a second one in the city.

The North End is also great for what it is. Something that cannot be replicated. I won't call it a destination however, but a neighborhood that has it's share of destinations.

The closest comparison in the city would be to the Back Bay, and then only really to the Boylston corridor, which is what most visitors think of. And, it will do just fine in that regard.

It may not be a huge destination for local Bostonians, but they should probably be happy about that. If you've lived in the city for years, and never had a reason to go to the Seaport before and have been perfectly happy that way. Why would you complain it's not for you. You're happy for the tourist or out of towner trap that it is.

 

[fattony]

Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

What is the litmus test for success vs failure? I just can't understand what, other than aesthetics and a few subtle details, was going to be so different that would have made this "failure" into a "success."

To me it is an urban failure if:
no one moves into the apartment buildings
no one walks on the sidewalks
no one shops in the stores
no one eats in the restaurants and bars
no one spends time in the parks
everyone drives everywhere
the only people who come here are suburbanites and tourists
there are many pedestrian and bicycle accidents

Since so far, NONE of those things have come to pass nor appear to have any chance of happening, what will it possibly take for the Seaport to be a success?

So the auto traffic is bad? The auto traffic is bad on Boylston and Mass Ave, that doesn't make the Back Bay an urban failure, does it?

Seaport Blvd is 4 lane plus lefts instead of 4 lanes, no left? Don't kid yourselves it was ever going to be 2 lanes. The Silver Line has rubber wheels instead of rails? Comm Ave is wider and the B-line painfully slow, does that make Allston a suburban wasteland?

 

[FK4]

Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

It will and should be four lanes, +/- left turn lanes. Make the lanes narrow. Build a median. If there's enough retail, it will be OK - it'll just look like Washington DC. I think that's a better comparison here. The buildings don't talk to each other and that will always be a problem, but if the street level can be made decent this will be OK. Obviously they're not going to recreate the Back Bay here and I actually like the Seaport for its shiny newness. Canary Wharf is awesome but wouldn't be awesome without the rest of London. Likewise here.

The real key will be the road, though. And it has big potential. Anchor it to the Greenway with its own, smaller greenway, a 20 year plan for monuments, statues, some short term investments in wayfinding and public art. Anchor the other end to a renovated Harbor Street -> Summer St corridor via Marine Industrial Park that will sync up with Day Boulevard/Necklace along an improved E 1st Street and the huge new park they are building there. The Harborwalk is great but this could be an alternate, more rapid bicycle corridor all its own.

 

[choo]

Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

It will need a real cycle track. Not a Comm. Ave median that you can bike down. It is way too crowded in peak months and it will be a big bike passage. Both from Southie to downtown, but also from all other neighborhoods with people biking into the seaport. Some true bike infrastructure here would be great. Plus the pedestrian walk and trees and some reduced lanes. But bikes deserve and will need a set aside here.

 

[TheRifleman]

Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

Destination for who? To whom is the Back Bay a destination? Out of towners I would think are the ones who see it as a destination. Based on them feeding the monster, this will become the same type of destination. It will have many of the same shops, the same hip and/or sports bars, the same big bucks restaurants, etc. Plus that one thing you don't really get over on Boylston or Newbury.... the water front. But, it will be much more accessible to a large population of people. Mainly those that don't want to take mass transit, or those that don't want to transfer while on mass transit. Many out of towners absolutely hate getting on the green line. They like their own space.

Those who do come into South Station on the Commuter or Red Line will like the idea of the easy access to the waterfront and all the things listed above. In the nice weather months, folks will have no problem walking over to the seaport and enjoying themselves doing so. Also, those that have no problem changing from one line to another, will have no issue changing to Silver from Red, as it's the easiest transfer in the system in my opinion. Easy for the commuter rail folks as well.

Also, the other out of towners, those from out of State who just flew in for short stays will populate this area as they already do. They will even more when the hotels are completed. If they are in the area for a big expo, they want to be as close as possible. If they are in town to meet with the businesses in the seaport, again they will stay and enjoy this area.

The greenway is not a destination, ad I'm not sure it ever will be a true destination. It's a nice break from the city, and a nice place to stroll and stop if you have the kids with you or whatnot. It makes walking to the Garden a better option for many.

The Common is a destination, but not one that could, would, or should ever be emulated in the city, so not sure why that's on your list.

Faneuil Hall is a huge destination, but it's a small area comparatively, and is geared towards tourists mainly, or the rowdier drinking crowds. It's gotten more upscale food wise, stores wise. It's a great place in general for a city to have, and again not sure why we'd compare to it. It works for the reasons it does, but no one should consider trying to build a second one in the city.

The North End is also great for what it is. Something that cannot be replicated. I won't call it a destination however, but a neighborhood that has it's share of destinations.

The closest comparison in the city would be to the Back Bay, and then only really to the Boylston corridor, which is what most visitors think of. And, it will do just fine in that regard.

It may not be a huge destination for local Bostonians, but they should probably be happy about that. If you've lived in the city for years, and never had a reason to go to the Seaport before and have been perfectly happy that way. Why would you complain it's not for you. You're happy for the tourist or out of towner trap that it is.

Maybe .......a very well respected view. The problem I see is their is no easy access to the seaport when the final buildout of this area happens and if you do not work or live in the area why would you go here.
There is no hardrail so you will have to sit in traffic with the Silverline bus. The only real walkable areas are the piers which will do okay for retail.

The area is not foot traffic friendly like the backbay. There is just too much walking to get know where. The big block footprints are a disaster.

My point is. This was priceless realestate that got a lot of help from the taxpayers. I say in the end seaport would have evolved if our leaders invested in a better infrastructure instead of their business associates that help them get elected.

 

[coleslaw]

Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

Maybe .......a very well respected view. The problem I see is their is no easy access to the seaport when the final buildout of this area happens and if you do not work or live in the area why would you go here.
There is no hardrail so you will have to sit in traffic with the Silverline bus. The only real walkable areas are the piers which will do okay for retail.

The area is not foot traffic friendly like the backbay. There is just too much walking to get know where. The big block footprints are a disaster.

My point is. This was priceless realestate that got a lot of help from the taxpayers. I say in the end seaport would have evolved if our leaders invested in a better infrastructure instead of their business associates that help them get elected.

The seaport should have rail but how do you sit in traffic on the Silverline? You clearly have never ridden the Silverline; it is underground.

There are reasons to go here: the ICA, Blue Hills Bank Pavilion, a movie theater in a few years (we do not have many of those in urban Boston), childrens museum in walking distance, and the convention center (this ignores the restaurants).

This area will be plenty foot traffic friendly at full build out. Yeah everything is spread out now because many lots are still empty but it will get much better. so in the future no there will not be "too much walking to get know [sic] where."

They seaport is not perfect by any means but it is not the tax payer funded disaster you make it out to be. I really wonder if you have every been there, more and more people are there every time I go this will me a hopping place in a few years (if it isn't already)

 

[paperless paul]

Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

What is the litmus test for success vs failure? I just can't understand what, other than aesthetics and a few subtle details, was going to be so different that would have made this "failure" into a "success."

To me it is an urban failure if:
no one moves into the apartment buildings
no one walks on the sidewalks
no one shops in the stores
no one eats in the restaurants and bars
no one spends time in the parks
everyone drives everywhere
the only people who come here are suburbanites and tourists
there are many pedestrian and bicycle accidents

Since so far, NONE of those things have come to pass nor appear to have any chance of happening, what will it possibly take for the Seaport to be a success?

So the auto traffic is bad? The auto traffic is bad on Boylston and Mass Ave, that doesn't make the Back Bay an urban failure, does it?

Seaport Blvd is 4 lane plus lefts instead of 4 lanes, no left? Don't kid yourselves it was ever going to be 2 lanes. The Silver Line has rubber wheels instead of rails? Comm Ave is wider and the B-line painfully slow, does that make Allston a suburban wasteland?

Fattony,

This critique seems somewhat unusual for you. I normally find much in your common with your view, but in this case I don't understand your comment/list at all.

Campbell's critique is that it the Seaport represents a "failure of urban design" and identifies the main causes of complaint: poor street design, isolated industrial-sized parcels, lack of diversity, lack of residents, uninteresting and lazy architecture and a lack of cultural amenities. He also identifies some positives: District Hall, Eastport Park and Liberty Wharf. This seems like a fair appraisal to me.

You say ''failure" is defined by not a single person entering the Seaport Area at all. Although you then say these non-existent people would only be suburbanites and tourists who would crash into non-existent pedestrians. I honestly can't make sense of these statements. I think SeamusMcFly makes several good point up thread and I also don't understand some people's criticism that the Backbay / North End wasn't built here. Those were never options, unless by Backbay you mean the 1960s Prudential / Copley complex.

In my view, there was a failure of urban planning and one that has resulted in a missed opportunity. In the long term we can hope for a kind of Kendall Sq II in which poorly planned urbanism is managed and adjusted over time to soften edges, fill in missing pieces and ameliorate the worst mistakes.

In response to you and Campbell my list of failures would be:
Public transportation - the Silver line is atrocious. For non-Red line and SS commuter passengers walking is a superior mode (at least west of D). There is a lack of frequency and capacity. This failure is like an 'original sin' given the almost blank slate that was available to work with. Lack of residents - another giant problem. I am not 100% up to date on this. But it seems like there will not be nearly the number of residences originally advertised (more hotels and offices) and that the few that will be there will lack diversity and essentially be between 1% and 0.1% making even Kendall Sq look like Brooklyn by comparison.

The BCEC, as discussed on its own thread, is horribly anti-urban. The west side may forever serve as a 3/4 mile wall between Fort Point and the Seaport. The East and South side are only marginally better (but perhaps a solution will be found). Frankly even the Summer St side is not much better. Giant floor plates each with its own bathtub parking lot, which should be great when sea levels rise X ft, and further highlight the original sin. This form also results in retail (or in this case so far only restaurants) which are of the bland, over-priced chain variety i.e. Rosa Mexicano, Empire, 'steakhouse'.

What makes me hopeful? As others have said, Seaport Bd and other streets can be improved. If there was a massive activation of Ft Point Channel / SS expansion / moving of the USPS (say 10 years from now) in line with the 100 Acres Master Plan then maybe combined with the existing 'good' urbanism of Ft Point this could motivate and spread better practice back into the district. It would also help to have a really carefully thought out transition and interface a the south and east sides of the BCEC expansion. Hopefully this development could be better integrated with South Boston and lead to a further 'Main St' corridor running from South Boston all the way to the Seaport.

Build out of the L Blocks with residents, maybe a conversion of current hotel space or other infill of residences over time. And finally connecting Silver to Green or some other improvements in the Silver's effectiveness.

 

[TheRifleman]

Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

Yes.....I have been to Seaport---Legal's Roof-Deck
But I feel when you park near Altantic Beer Gardens its like walking a mile to Legal's.

Most of Downtown, Backbay, Greenway, NorthStation, Northend, Haymarket---I feel like you can walk around and through Boston to get to your destination: And if your tired you can jump on one of the Hardrails--Which also lead you to the surroundings Boston.

The only connection the Seaport has is the Silverline Bus--It's not pedestrian friendly from Downtown unless you are in good shape. (Forget the winter times)

So everyone who works down there is not going to want to take the Silverline Bus in the winter time. They will drive there car which will cause gridlock

Seaport has a complete disconnect from the city and its not Transit friendly. The silverline doesn't go underground until over he bridge right?

 

[SeamusMcFly]

Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

As far as walkability. That is obviously still viewed through todays glasses. Just because it's a straight walk from the Hancock to the Pru, doesn't mean it's quick and easy for everyone. But, the distance on foot is about a half mile, or the same distance from the Children's Museum to the Trade Center.

In that walk, you'll traverse the main of what is the Seaport district. Just because it's big stretches of parking lots now to make it feel like a wasteland, it will not continue to be one. But, there will be lots of different windows and side walk cafés to walk by on your way. Just like the Back Bay. That's East/West. It's shorter going North/South. Hop off at Courthouse, WTC, or Silverline Way. 3 stops pretty much get you to the whole place.

 

[TheRifleman]

Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

As far as walkability. That is obviously still viewed through todays glasses. Just because it's a straight walk from the Hancock to the Pru, doesn't mean it's quick and easy for everyone. But, the distance on foot is about a half mile, or the same distance from the Children's Museum to the Trade Center.

In that walk, you'll traverse the main of what is the Seaport district. Just because it's big stretches of parking lots now to make it feel like a wasteland, it will not continue to be one. But, there will be lots of different windows and side walk cafés to walk by on your way. Just like the Back Bay. That's East/West. It's shorter going North/South. Hop off at Courthouse, WTC, or Silverline Way. 3 stops pretty much get you to the whole place.

I can agree with some of that:

Only if you can agree with traffic will get worse because our leaders have overlooked the Transit scenario for the workers in the area. The workers in the area will end up driving in. I don't see scientists waiting for the Silverline Bus in the Winter time or walking to Vertex if they don't live in the area. I believe they will drive in--

Maybe there should be a monorail right down the strip to drop everyone off to one of there boxes

 

[datadyne007]

Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

The silverline doesn't go underground until over he bridge right?

Well there you go. You just proved you know nothing about the SL Waterfront. The SL Waterfront is underground in its own ROW completely free of traffic from South Station all the way to World Trade Center, accessed by dedicated fare-controlled stations.

The SL Waterfront also has the best headways and reliability of the entire MBTA system, per the MBTA's performance data.

 

[SeamusMcFly]

Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

Seaport has a complete disconnect from the city and its not Transit friendly. The silverline doesn't go underground until over he bridge right?

Really????

No. It's a subway. Underground. From South Station to past WTC. It's below the main underground concourse at South Station, one level above the red line. You pass it on your way to the Red Line. Direct shot between the two biggest busiest travel hubs in New England. South Station and Logan.

For the built out/to be built out area of the Seaport, it is extremely accessible. It does not go over a bridge, it goes underwater.

 

[TheRifleman]

Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

Well there you go. You just proved you know nothing about the SL Waterfront. The SL Waterfront is underground in its own ROW completely free of traffic from South Station all the way to World Trade Center, accessed by dedicated fare-controlled stations.

The SL Waterfront also has the best headways and reliability of the entire MBTA system.

I only had to ride it once--Never again--I would rather drive.

You see my friend. I took the MBTA half my life--- It is just too dam slow now.

 

[coleslaw]

Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

I can agree with some of that:

Only if you can agree with traffic will get worse because our leaders have overlooked the Transit scenario for the workers in the area. The workers in the area will end up driving in. I don't see scientists waiting for the Silverline Bus in the Winter time or walking to Vertex if they don't live in the area. I believe they will drive in--

Maybe there should be a monorail right down the strip to drop everyone off to one of there boxes

Doctors and scientists of LMA ride the Green Line, why do you think they would not ride the Silver Line?