Seaport Neighborhood - Infill and Discussion

[bigpicture7]

Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

I think his question still holds: what architecture can effectively transition from brick to glass?

This is nothing more than my under-informed opinion, but I feel what works best between old brick and modern glass is modern brick. We've seen it at Lovejoy Wharf, in the 110 Broad proposal (a dark brick between the old Bulfinch facade and the new structure), and we've also seen it at a number of college campuses as a bridge between the old campus buildings and new structures. None of these examples have the scale of the seaport neighborhood, though, so I am not sure what will work there.

**Edit** As an example, check out this stretch of Sydney St. in Cambridge. This is a great example of a neighborhood that's had to make this same type of transition. Pan around this view, as well as up/down the street. You can see the modern brick transitioning to glass in a number of places.

 

[JeffDowntown]

Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

This is nothing more than my under-informed opinion, but I feel what works best between old brick and modern glass is modern brick. We've seen it at Lovejoy Wharf, in the 110 Broad proposal (a dark brick between the old Bulfinch facade and the new structure), and we've also seen it at a number of college campuses as a bridge between the old campus buildings and new structures. None of these examples have the scale of the seaport neighborhood, though, so I am not sure what will work there.

**Edit** As an example, check out this stretch of Sydney St. in Cambridge. This is a great example of a neighborhood that's had to make this same type of transition. Pan around this view, as well as up/down the street. You can see the modern brick transitioning to glass in a number of places.

timsox6, you are correct, I was questioning what architectural style would make the transition work, and not just be jarring. The master plans don't really help with that.

bigpicture7, great examples of the transition. I love the way Lovejoy Wharf works. I hope we get some of that quality in the transition from Fort Point to Seaport.

 

[stick n move]

Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

L3-6 parcels which are directly next to the fort point district. Not set in stone but for the most part this area is masterplanned and they are generally sticking to the script.

 

[JeffDowntown]

Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

L3-6 parcels which are directly next to the fort point district. Not set in stone but for the most part this area is masterplanned and they are generally sticking to the script.

Great, thanks. I like the suggestion of glass and brick, or glass and terracotta panel.

 

[stick n move]

Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

Placeholders but the M parcel renders seem to stick to the script of building the residential towers in brick. L parcels 3-6 are on the right side of render, 121 seaport is on the left, M parcels are in front. These are the things I take into account when I hold off on bashing the seaport until it is built out more.

 

[whighlander]

Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

To me, Kendall Sq is the closest thing we currently have to the future Seaport, with its wide streets and mega-sized parcels. Walking around certain parts of Kendall can feel like you're surrounded by suburban office parks. Walking around the half finished Seaport this weekend, it already feels like it's going to be more of a neighborhood. The street wall is being filled with stores, and there are pedestrians at all hours. I agree that the majority of the buildings are bland, but at almost any location here you have a view of fort point and the financial district, so visually you are getting some architectural diversity; it's not glass and steel as far as the eye can see.

i'm among the optimists on this one.

theSil -- even Kendall is in the midst of mega-evolution

It's still time to say -- When:

• MIT has finished its 6 new buildings [for the most part commercial] and its new lawn
• a few of the other infill structures such as the residential tower on Ames
• of course the Volpe site

only then you might really see Kendal for its new face and body

and by then you might begin to see what the Seaport / Innovation District will look like when it really grows up

Both of these will take more than a decade to become real neighborhoods

However, both have made so so much progress from the days 40 years ago when I was an MIT student and both were virtually wastelands

 

[stick n move]

Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

The main difference I see is that the seaport has been much more focused on street level retail from the get-go than kendall is- but that is changing. Kendall is going to add buildings with retail but a lot of the development that is built out does not have any. In the seaport almost everything has retail. Both neighborhoods are changing before our eyes and I believe that both will be great neighborhoods in due time. A couple of the very first towers in the seaport had very little retail but the vast majority of development does at this point. Either way both are coming into their own and I think they will both be great places to live and work in the coming years.

 

[whighlander]

Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

timsox6, you are correct, I was questioning what architectural style would make the transition work, and not just be jarring. The master plans don't really help with that.

bigpicture7, great examples of the transition. I love the way Lovejoy Wharf works. I hope we get some of that quality in the transition from Fort Point to Seaport.

Jeffdowntown, BigPicture -- we are going in a few months to see this process up-close and real personal

Genseler has to do what you are saying with the GE HQ -- take two old brick and beam warehouses and something new -- and marry them together so that Jeff Immelt is happy

My guess is that the new structure will be mostly an 8 to 10 story glass tower [for the suits] hovering above a few story glass and brick pedestal [for the Gnurds] that will meld with the old structures [for the customers, politicians and press]

 

[whighlander]

Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

The main difference I see is that the seaport has been much more focused on street level retail from the get-go than kendall is- but that is changing. Kendall is going to add buildings with retail but a lot of the development that is built out does not have any. In the seaport almost everything has retail. Both neighborhoods are changing before our eyes and I believe that both will be great neighborhoods in due time.

Stick -- i think that sums it up pretty well -- we need to wait and see -- but the prospects looks fairly positive

 

[stick n move]

Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

Exactly as a sum of their parts if you look at what is proposed both neighborhoods are going to be great assets to the city.

 

[SeamusMcFly]

Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

The resemblance is thankfully getting less and less.
The two neighborhoods are products of different eras, and development mindsets.
Kendall is the result of cheap land being available and used to renew a dying manufacturing area. Of course the planners of the time based everything on cars and getting back and forth from city jobs to suburban homes in the quickest way possible. The marriage with MIT has mostly kept this as the language of Kendall really up until this latest cycle.

The seaport has the benefit of seeing all of Kendall's urban failures as well as it's tech and other business victories. The seaport also benefits from an administration that is finally recognizing the city's dire need for new housing. That and the ideals of mixed use developments and their positive neighborhood building premises are leading to a much more diverse neighborhood than Kendall.

While ahead in many regards, Kendall is already playing catch up with the seaport in urban design and housing. The subway in Kendall will remain a major leg up however, until there is finally a silver line upgrade to light rail anyways. Even then it will be a better mass transit backbone.

The seaport has its better highway and airport and Amtrak commuter rail connections than Kendall.

All in all, I am starting to find them less and less alike, and that's a good thing.

 

[bigpicture7]

Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

....until there is finally a silver line upgrade to light rail anyways.

Is this actually going to happen? It is beyond necessary.

 

[393b40]

Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

Is this actually going to happen? It is beyond necessary.

In 30 years maybe. Anytime soon? No.

Put me in the incredibly pessimistic camp for the Seaport. It's not Boston. It's some sort of weird 128 + conventioners w/ corporate credit card paradise by the sea. It's shiny, flat, fake, inhuman by design. It's a playground for people with more money or no common sense to throw 3-4K at a studio or 1B. It's not designed for families.

It's just an absolute waste of space. Boston took one of it's crown jewel assets and shit all over it with poor planning and execution. I live 15 minutes from it by foot in downtown and I never go there unless someone from out of town drags me there. I don't know anyone else who lives in the city who also willingly goes there unless they work there.

Fuck the Seaport.

 

[SeamusMcFly]

Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

Yeah. Fuck it. Bring back our parking lots.
How dare it be shiny when half of it is under 4 years old.
Fake? Meh.
Overpriced, not for families, too much catered to corporations? Absolutely.
Will this change? Hopefully. There have only been 3 new apartment building completed since the ball really got rolling. 319A, 20 liberty, and pier 4. Oops, 4, how could I forget waterside? Total of what, 600 units? Not neigh irhood shattering and definitely not neighborhood building. B&C will effectively double the units here, with M tripling the current total. Add in 50 Liberty, the second res. Building at pier 4, watermark finishing and occupying, and we are at better than 2,000 units. The retail and food options will need to accommodate these residents as much as their transient corporate audience.

Call me optimistic.

 

[SeamusMcFly]

Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

Beyond seaport square we already have a couple hundreds units at the dreadful park lane development. Parcel K (passport), has another residential development coming right next door. Once, M (seaport square) connects passport and other seaport lots together it will feel more likes it's own contiguous neighborhood, and not a stubbed extension of downtown.

Perfect, by no means, but also not the total failure anyone wants to hyperbolically call it.

 

[Suffolk 83]

Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

^ nice take on the seaport. I'm not a huge fan either but as you said, out of towners seem to really like it. It's not really for you or me, the average Bostonian. It's for the suburbanites afraid to drive in a real city, afraid to take the T, afraid to walk 15 minutes to get somewhere for fear something will happen to them.

 

[Hutchison]

Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

WTF is an "average bostonian"? I highly doubt any of the people posting on a local architecture forum would qualify for whatever that definition is anyway.

 

[falcon42]

Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

In 30 years maybe. Anytime soon? No.

Put me in the incredibly pessimistic camp for the Seaport. It's not Boston. It's some sort of weird 128 + conventioners w/ corporate credit card paradise by the sea. It's shiny, flat, fake, inhuman by design. It's a playground for people with more money or no common sense to throw 3-4K at a studio or 1B. It's not designed for families.

It's just an absolute waste of space. Boston took one of it's crown jewel assets and shit all over it with poor planning and execution. I live 15 minutes from it by foot in downtown and I never go there unless someone from out of town drags me there. I don't know anyone else who lives in the city who also willingly goes there unless they work there.

Fuck the Seaport.

Who are you to say what common sense is to where and how much to spend money on rent? A one bed for $3k for a couple is $1,500 per person (if you have enough common sense to figure that out). Ever see rents for one beds in Back Bay or Fenway? What about the nice buildings in Charlestown? Do you know what the average age of Seaport residents is? The answer is 24. So apparently some people are doing well enough at a very young age to live here and afford it.

 

[mdd]

Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

Yeah. Fuck it. Bring back our parking lots.
How dare it be shiny when half of it is under 4 years old.
Fake? Meh.
Overpriced, not for families, too much catered to corporations? Absolutely.
Will this change? Hopefully. There have only been 3 new apartment building completed since the ball really got rolling. 319A, 20 liberty, and pier 4. Oops, 4, how could I forget waterside? Total of what, 600 units? Not neigh irhood shattering and definitely not neighborhood building. B&C will effectively double the units here, with M tripling the current total. Add in 50 Liberty, the second res. Building at pier 4, watermark finishing and occupying, and we are at better than 2,000 units. The retail and food options will need to accommodate these residents as much as their transient corporate audience.

Call me optimistic.

There is a ton of new housing, but for the majority of people its pretty un-affordable.

 

[TheRifleman]

Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

Seaport is not natural progression:

The BRA should have focused the development in the core city along with pushing & planning for rapid expansion of the transit out towards the seaport so it evolved and developed into a neighborhood and businesses.
These garages would have benefitted the overall public to be developed instead of have all the tax incentives given to the Fallon and other company's and developers concerning the seaport area.
Winthrop garage
Harbor garage
Congress garage
South station

focusing on the core of the city were the hardrails are located would have made sense.
The problem was all the tax incentives went to buildout a sprawling office park that created more useless traffic in the city instead of focusing on city core development.