Seaport Neighborhood - Infill and Discussion

Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

I think some people forget how close South Station is. It's only .4 mi from the new Seaport Square. That's about a 10 min walk. I have walked multiple times from the Seaport hotel area to SS and its takes about 15 mins. Its not like you are stranded in a desert. A little walk isn't the worst thing in the world.
 
Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

Exactly it seems further than it is because of the channel, the same way the south end feels far away from southie because of the expressway. In reality most places in the seaport are within any reasonable walking distance to the biggest hub station in Boston. Its a billion times closer than the walk most of southie has to take to Andrew if they don't hop on the bus. Theres also a billion times less of a chance of getting stabbed at south station compared to Andrew, which is a plus. In southie/dorchester you can walk 20 minutes to Andrew and then still have to hope you don't get robbed when you get there.
 
Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

I agree having South Station there is huge. My criticism is with the current silver line (woefully inefficient way to carry large amounts of people - not just to the first few blocks of the "innovation district," where walking is a better option, but beyond that further into the seaport, toward the design center area, and then to the airport. That is way too short a distance to take as long as it does.)

Secondly, I am concerned about stratification. Sure, the big fancy high-rent companies can reside half a mile from SS, but I personally know several early/mid-stage firms renting space deeper into the seaport (e.g., in the fast-growing warehouse districts between John Hancock & Harpoon), and it very quickly starts to become an untenable daily walk from SS to get to work. Most of these folks slog their way down there via the Silverline.

The point of municipal infrastructure is to level the playing field a bit. I'd like to see the high rent district and the up-and-coming areas of the seaport both well served by the transit infrastructure. A more efficient silver line (e.g., light rail if possible...or at least smart stoplight control) would help accomplish this.
 
Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

stick n move said:
Theres also a billion times less of a chance of getting stabbed at south station compared to Andrew, which is a plus. In southie/dorchester you can walk 20 minutes to Andrew and then still have to hope you don't get robbed when you get there.
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Was that necessary? Helpful? At all relevant?
 
Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

bigpicture7 said:
... the first few blocks of the "innovation district," where walking is a better option...
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You know, I've never once used Courthouse Station. Can anyone who rides the SL daily comment - is Courthouse a heavily used station?
 
Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

fattony said:
You know, I've never once used Courthouse Station. Can anyone who rides the SL daily comment - is Courthouse a heavily used station?
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VERY heavily used each morning. Which surprised me. Half of each Silver Line bus gets off at Courthouse each day.

Still not sure why the station is so massive.
 
Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

fattony said:
Was that necessary? Helpful? At all relevant?
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Not really necessary I guess but the point being its within a reasonable walking distance to a major hub that is also very safe compared to the other near by red line stations. So the upscale yuppie types moving into the ritzy condos in the area can walk to the red line and back at night relatively safely compared to having to walk to andrew at 11pm. A new yuppie mom from hopkinton just moving into the city and walking back and forth at night is a reasonable option for transit, which is nice when you spend 3 grand a month. Compared to walking to Andrew and even Central on the other end of the line at night, not always a good idea if your new to the city. My apologies if I offended you but its true and thats basically where I was going with it.
 
Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

cjbski said:
VERY heavily used each morning. Which surprised me. Half of each Silver Line bus gets off at Courthouse each day.

Still not sure why the station is so massive.
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0.62 miles from the South Station headhouse to the front door of the Courthouse. I'd take the bus on rainy days, definitely, with the short waits. It's a nice walk, but it doesn't feel short.
 
Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

fattony said:
You know, I've never once used Courthouse Station. Can anyone who rides the SL daily comment - is Courthouse a heavily used station?
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Courthouse and WTC are similar ballpark in Blue Book boardings...~1300 for Courthouse, ~1600 for WTC. Not as big a difference between the two as Convention Center-centric conventional wisdom would suggest, so they divvy up the neighborhood catchment pretty nicely. I used Courthouse sometimes when I worked at Channel Center and had lunch or after-work errands/eating to do on that end of the Seaport. To the eyes it seems lighter-ridership than it actually is because the station space itself is so physically large, but at platform level it shows the capacity limitations of the current Silver Line setup just as badly at crush-load as the legends suggest.

If they ever got a downtown trolley connection through there they'd probably each rank in the low-middle for near-CBD stops when the neighborhood is built out. A bit more than light-headway but ideally-located Prudential (3500+), somewhat less but spitting-distance to less-dense but mainline-level Broadway and mainline-level but underutilized Aquarium (each ~5000). But consider that it's two consecutive stops in a similar-size catchment as one Kenmore, with max possible headways resembling a halfway point between Green Line branch and mainline when SL1 frequencies are factored in between Downtown trolley slots. Ridership of the two stops put together in a built-out neighborhood ends up at roughly a Kenmore equivalent...which is pretty insane. That cavernous station space will be put to good use if they can finish the unfinished job of linking that line.
 
Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

fattony said:
To be fair, the Seaport doesn't have mega blocks. The old New York WTC was a mega block. Government Center. The Pru complex.

The Seaport proper - along the water and Seaport Blvd - doesn't have anything that big. The large-ish blocks are parceled up with pretty decent internal pedestrian ways. The convention center... that is big, but it also predates any attempt to urbanize the place.

They easily could have dropped a South Bay Center on the Seaport and called it a day. They didn't and that is no small victory for urbanism. I'm not saying it is the ideal urban layout, but don't cry wolf right?
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Exactly. In addition to Cambridge, 128, and 495, providing huge office park floorspaces closer to our world-class universities by going massive in the Seaport - is a huge upgrade to the city, overall. We can go for better architecture in some cases. the Pier 4 project sucks.

Boston Versus Silicon Valley: Advantage Beantown

https://psmag.com/boston-versus-silicon-valley-advantage-beantown-44bac99c8393

http://www.citylab.com/work/2012/05/americas-most-powerful-global-cities/1904/
 
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Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

No, you're confusing with my desire to look at the Seaport in simplest way possible, and the way i read, learn and discuss Boston from some data points that don't always fit the perspective of architect: then, also lacking the vocabulary of city planners.

Once again, i see a basic (banal) concept flexing it's might in the central core from the perspective of the metro region itself: Real estate w/ huge floor space in awesome city on waterfront near smart people at MIT. It could be i'm just stupid, because i don't read much more in the Seaport beyond the basics: Manufactor supply akin to San Jose or DC for a solid customer base. Can you make the argument that Boston was lacking somewhat here?

Did the Menino admn hype San Jose by the Sea? The case can be made. As to the architecture, aren't we always pointing out evidence that many on the BRA just aren't very smart? Can we see staleness as VE and market forces? Seems a bit of both.

It doesn't help the BRA's image that you can't build nice a/r towers. i don't like all the stuff that comes out. However, overall i'm fine with what's happening here. i view all this building, filling offices with tenants in a city in desperate need of new revenue sources as a big win.
 
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Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

Perhaps we are spoiled? Beacon Hill, Back Bay, North End, South End, the Esplanade, Fenway Park. How could anything new ever compare to those gems?

Maybe the Seaport never will. Nonetheless, I find myself becoming hopeful. Are there mistakes, sure. What human undertaking, especially one rife with politics, is mistake-free? This is Boston, after all!

Yes, a distinctly different neighborhood. One that, however, thus far, appears to honor our beloved warehouses in Fort Point - quintessentially Boston. Parks, retail, housing, business - even a church. It's coming.

The main street is too wide? Yeah, probably. Blocks too big? Possibly. But this is 2016, not 1816. Maybe we wait for the street wall to make its statement. And the coming retail. The movie theaters. The landscaped median. Who knows? There's still Northern Ave. It's not too wide. Go have a look. Talk about an evolving city street.

The architecture? Okay. Point made. But remember, Pei and Diller-Scofidio planted the first flags here. Not a bad way to start. And better may be on the way if the renderings are any indication of things to come.

The Seaport may not be a diamond-in-the-rough, but even diamonds were coal at one point. What it is to become is still to be seen. And there are other gems besides diamonds.
 
Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

odurandina said:
the Pier 4 project sucks.
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Wtf. That is probably the greatest proposal in the entire district along side seaport sq and looks to be one of the better low rise developments in the city in a while. Are you talking about the building that is there now, because that one isn't the greatest thing ever built, but its not that bad either. The office tower looks like it will be interesting, but the residential going where Anthony's was looks like its going to be amazing. Have you looked at current renders of this? Its going to be a major tourist attraction and waterfront shopping/dining destination. Its also going to be an incredible addition to the harbor walk as well. Your expectations are waaaay too high and you don't seem to appreciate things that do their job well unless they are 750' tall.

I still remember when you called Boston skyline an embarrassment, even though the Hancock is one of the greatest minimalist towers ever built, 1IP is a gem, the fed is a true 1 of a kind that looks good too, custom house tower, theres plenty. The skyline is not just about what is over 500' tall either the wharves, charles, harbor, rowes wharf, church steeples, red brick base, all contribute to make it a great skyline. You gotta relax and learn to appreciate the great things in front of you or you will never be happy, especially here where the huge towers you love are few and far between.
 
Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

bigpicture7 said:
I agree having South Station there is huge. My criticism is with the current silver line (woefully inefficient way to carry large amounts of people - not just to the first few blocks of the "innovation district," where walking is a better option, but beyond that further into the seaport, toward the design center area, and then to the airport. That is way too short a distance to take as long as it does.)

Secondly, I am concerned about stratification. Sure, the big fancy high-rent companies can reside half a mile from SS, but I personally know several early/mid-stage firms renting space deeper into the seaport (e.g., in the fast-growing warehouse districts between John Hancock & Harpoon), and it very quickly starts to become an untenable daily walk from SS to get to work. Most of these folks slog their way down there via the Silverline.

The point of municipal infrastructure is to level the playing field a bit. I'd like to see the high rent district and the up-and-coming areas of the seaport both well served by the transit infrastructure. A more efficient silver line (e.g., light rail if possible...or at least smart stoplight control) would help accomplish this.
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BigPicture -- for someone interested in the Global you spend a lot of time on minutiae
Not clear that a metal wheeled electric bus [Green Line] is all that much better than an electric bus with rubber tires [Silver Line from South Station to Silver Line Way]

The key is frequency -- the mistake was the failure to cross D Street underground -- However it can be fixed without the enormous expense of all the other proposed transit extensions. Once you have a Silver Line that can run without concern for the surface traffic -- you've effectively provided a long extension of South Station into the middle of the Seaport / Innovation District

As to Stratification -- its all about money -- its always all about money. If you have money you can go where ever you want to go. If you don't you go where you have to go.

Vertex Pharmaceuticals is a paradigm. When Vertex was just a drug research operation selling their IP to big Pharma they were located on the fringes of Kendall Square in whatever lab space they could get -- about a typical walk that you describe from Kendall. The minute that they had gotten FDA Approval for a drug to treat Cystic Fibrosis @ $300k/patient per year -- they moved to the approx 1B$ Waterfront HQ

Ironically, some of the early stage web and Ap makers have moved into the Class B space in the Financial District -- space formerly occupied by the support staff of formerly Big Law, Big Accounting and Big Finance -- some of whom have moved to the Seaport / Innovation District
 
Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

whighlander said:
BigPicture -- for someone interested in the Global you spend a lot of time on minutiae
Not clear that a metal wheeled electric bus [Green Line] is all that much better than an electric bus with rubber tires [Silver Line from South Station to Silver Line Way]

The key is frequency -- the mistake was the failure to cross D Street underground -- However it can be fixed without the enormous expense of all the other proposed transit extensions. Once you have a Silver Line that can run without concern for the surface traffic -- you've effectively provided a long extension of South Station into the middle of the Seaport / Innovation District

As to Stratification -- its all about money -- its always all about money. If you have money you can go where ever you want to go. If you don't you go where you have to go.

Vertex Pharmaceuticals is a paradigm. When Vertex was just a drug research operation selling their IP to big Pharma they were located on the fringes of Kendall Square in whatever lab space they could get -- about a typical walk that you describe from Kendall. The minute that they had gotten FDA Approval for a drug to treat Cystic Fibrosis @ $300k/patient per year -- they moved to the approx 1B$ Waterfront HQ

Ironically, some of the early stage web and Ap makers have moved into the Class B space in the Financial District -- space formerly occupied by the support staff of formerly Big Law, Big Accounting and Big Finance -- some of whom have moved to the Seaport / Innovation District
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Whigh, I think you are oversimplifying the capacity issues.

GL style trolley capacity, both in terms of raw capacity per vehicle and speed in the tunnel is simply much greater than the SL bus will ever be, even with improvements.

You will never get to the capacity this district needs for full potential development using the buses. Can the buses be made better? -- yes, but not enough better for this to not be a huge development impediment in the future.
 
Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

JeffDowntown said:
Whigh, I think you are oversimplifying the capacity issues.

GL style trolley capacity, both in terms of raw capacity per vehicle and speed in the tunnel is simply much greater than the SL bus will ever be, even with improvements.

You will never get to the capacity this district needs for full potential development using the buses. Can the buses be made better? -- yes, but not enough better for this to not be a huge development impediment in the future.
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Jeffdowntown -- you are looking at current growth and assuming that all of it needs to come into the district on wheels. I would presume that there is lot more residences that will be getting built either in the district or on its fringes where walking is a viable means of commuting.

You are also assuming that there will not be significant changes in the way the wheeled vehicles travel, are stored and "summoned"

Finally, you are assuming the Silver Line can't get significantly better -- in the time window in question I would expect that Silver Line under D would be completed -- this would free the Silver Line schedule from the influence of the surface traffic
 
Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

Whigh,
When I spoke of stratification, I was not referring to real estate cost. Of course there will be vast differences there. Vertex, PWC, a few blocks from SS, right on the water - sure, let these be very pricey parcels. Sure, let the barely-solvent start-ups be in warehouses a few blocks deeper into the seaport. No complaints about basic economics.

I refer to what we are trying to do with this place: "innovation district," whereby district implies more than just a block and whereby innovation presumably refers to lots of new ideas sprouting up and becoming products or services. This requires lots of people, and in this case, it's spread over a not insubstantial area. So when I spoke of stratification, I meant connectivity to the basic transit infrastructure. Not niceness of office buildings or cost of leases.

You raise excellent points re: "freeing the silver line schedule from the influence of surface traffic." Yes, that would help. I don't care about rubber wheels versus metal wheels. Great transit infrastructure has sufficient capacity (as Jeff speaks to) and frequency (which smart stoplight control or off-street routing assist with). Reality is that the silver line is asked to do double-duty as a major conduit to the airport, which means it is filled with non-seaport workers during peak times.

Others may have more info, but IIRC no one is saying the Silver Line was ever optimized. Big Dig cost cuts, etc, made it what it is. I am not trying to start an argument; I am merely saying that since its not optimized, there's work to be done here to make it better. And if we're serious about making this area a substantial innovation hub for lots of employees, then we ought to do this.
 
Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

Seaport/innovation District is an Office park near the city.
Seaport does not connect with Boston right now: The Seaport needs rapid transportation in the area to connect to the city.
*We will see when the area does finally get built out and how the Ground floors connect to the streetscape but Seaport is a disconnect from Boston.
*I just see this area as a lot of Open space WALKING. It needs rapid transit to connect to the area.

Seaport was never going to be like the below areas of Boston (the real estate was just too expensive)
Backbay, Beacon Hill, NorthEnd, Southie they all evolved from Neighborhoods.

My point is Menino/BRA really screwed up (outright Criminal) with the SEAPORT especially focusing on giving so much Tax incentives to the developers/Corporations to get the area built-out.
**But they missed the Memo concerning the planning for the Traffic/Foot Traffic Scenario and how tourists and Bostonians would be able to flow in-out of the Seaport:
(Don't give me the fucking Silver Line Bus Transit)
You need something to flow in-out with efficiency.

This is why I said let Kraft build his Patriots Place/Fenway Park in the area and make it a Neighborhood for Boston Sports because the Seaport was going to be Corporate no matter what.
The only difference is the tax incentives to Menino's Boys to build out the area was disgraceful as they ignored the entire Transit scenario.
At least Kraft would have been forced to focus on the Transit tax incentives would have been limited to focus on transit.

That is my point.
I actually like Pier 4: Just not sure how traffic turns out concerning this build-out.
 
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