Seaport Neighborhood - Infill and Discussion

Re: South Boston Seaport

greenwayguy1982 said:
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What tax breaks have been given to Hynes, Rifleman?
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You may be asking a better question than you think you are.

Why no tax breaks for Hynes? Not that I want them, but Mr. Mayor has ponied up plenty of breaks for his pals while he has been less than cordial to Mr. Hynes especially at the Filene's project. Menino and our other fine officials made the mistake of hustling the demo permit through for Filene's and then they dragged their feet and said the proposal was too tall, and then very quickly they yanked the rug out and pulled all approvals. Not that I disagree with the revokation, but plenty of other projects have sat dormant and no one has pulled their approvals for not building anything.

Where's the consistancy? No wonder nobody respects or takes our Mayor seriously. Speech impediment aside, the guy is an absolute joke with zero vision, zero integrity, and well he's pretty much a zero. And, yet he gets elected everytime.

Oh yeah, and he hates Hockey and it's fans.
 
Re: South Boston Seaport

^
What actual "shovel-ready" projects with real users (i.e. Vertex, Liberty Mutual) have been brought to the table as part of Seaport Square that would justify the application of a tax incentive? Thus not a consistancy issue on the city's side. If Seaport Square came to the table with a 500,000SF commercial tenant ready to build a new building, asked for a TIF and was refused, then let's talk. Until then, I'd say the city has been consistent in supporting major commercial projects with real-live users that were really ready to break ground.
 
Re: South Boston Seaport

greenwayguy1982 said:
^
What actual "shovel-ready" projects with real users (i.e. Vertex, Liberty Mutual) have been brought to the table as part of Seaport Square that would justify the application of a tax incentive? Thus not a consistancy issue on the city's side. If Seaport Square came to the table with a 500,000SF commercial tenant ready to build a new building, asked for a TIF and was refused, then let's talk. Until then, I'd say the city has been consistent in supporting major commercial projects with real-live users that were really ready to break ground.
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Anybody can have a shovel-ready project especially when they can swindle 46-72 Million in taxpayers subsidies from the taxpayer, this city should not offer such perks’ to the private developers. Shouldn't it be the other way around that these private developers offer the percs to the city in benefit of the taxpayers. It's very easy to persuade a tenant to rent your building when you know you’re getting huge tax benefits.

Isn't that the whole point in buying a development? Why didn't Fallon just lower his rents to Vertex? Why is the taxpayer involved in this deal?
I can understand some infrastructure which should have been drawn out a long time ago. Basically the city can make costs up as they go. That 72 Million in tax breaks just moved up to 100 million and there is nothing anybody can do.

The only people that benefit from this deal is that weasel Fallon who probably paid too much for FAN PIER in the first place.

It's a taxpayer bailout for Fallon because he couldn't find a tenant, The city & state persuade Vertex to move their location from Cambridge to Boston inexchange for Vertex moving they would pump 72 million in tax dollars to create union hack jobs for the upcoming elections. Do you really believe people out for the best interest of the taxpayers would say Lets move Vertex to Boston and give them tax breaks instead of leaving them in Cambridge so they can can contribute tax revenue to the state?
 
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Re: South Boston Seaport

I do want this noted. If the BRA or city officials had mapped out an underground T in the first place, no matter what was developed in this area, the Seaport future would have been 100% success. It would have just attracted postive atmosphere with people, corporations especially being on the waterfront with accessible T. Right now Seaport does have momentum and it does have shot to being successful for a while but when you start seeing that it becomes harder and harder to find parking overtime and waiting outside in the cold for a silverline might not be too appealing over the longterm. I hope I'm dead wrong.
 
Re: South Boston Seaport

the Silver Line is underground, except at Silver Line Way.
 
Re: South Boston Seaport

Ron Newman said:
the Silver Line is underground, except at Silver Line Way.
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Comparing the Silver line to the underground Orange, Blue and Red lines are not the same. In my opinion the Orange, Blue and Red are usually more efficient than the Silver line. But I have only traveled once on the silverline.
 
Re: South Boston Seaport

TheRifleman said:
I do want this noted. If the BRA or city officials had mapped out an underground T in the first place, no matter what was developed in this area, the Seaport future would have been 100% success.
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What role did the city have in the choice between rail and BRT for the Silverline? I'm genuinely curious.
 
Re: South Boston Seaport

The Silver Line has more frequent service -- at least in rush hours -- than the Blue/Orange/Red. What makes it so in efficient is that it goes only to South Station. People on the Green and Orange Lines have to change twice. People on the Blue Line have to change thrice.
 
Re: South Boston Seaport

statler said:
What role did the city have in the choice between rail and BRT for the Silverline? I'm genuinely curious.
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I don't think they ever thought about it. I'm not sure if it's even possible, I could be reaching for an underground transit. All I'm saying is they should have planned this or mapped it out and this area would be very successful no matter how it evolved.

As development begins that will mean less cheaper parking lots and will be the beginning to the end of easy parking in that area. Harbor Garage & Congress St Garage might be able to charge 50 or 100 dollars a day in the future as parking will dwindle to nothing in this city.
 
Re: South Boston Seaport

Fred R - more frequent service ... to what? Parking lots?
 
Re: South Boston Seaport

Was the Silver Line being drawn up before or after the Ted Williams was being built? Had it been before, they should have account for putting tracks somewhere in the middle or to the sides. Obviously now it would be too costly and potentially damaging to add a tube, but at the time it would have been nice.

I also don't get the massive swing out to the courthouse, half it's service radius is water. It should have shot up Congress St hitting the historic wharf district, BCEC/WTC, then running with the Ted with perhaps a stop under the BOA/Harpoon Brewery before going down below the harbor.
 
Re: South Boston Seaport

BostonUrbEx said:
Was the Silver Line being drawn up before or after the Ted Williams was being built? Had it been before, they should have account for putting tracks somewhere in the middle or to the sides. Obviously now it would be too costly and potentially damaging to add a tube, but at the time it would have been nice.

I also don't get the massive swing out to the courthouse, half it's service radius is water. It should have shot up Congress St hitting the historic wharf district, BCEC/WTC, then running with the Ted with perhaps a stop under the BOA/Harpoon Brewery before going down below the harbor.
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It shows how the city planners have no fucking clue or vision. I would rather spend 200 Million- 500 Million in tax dollars for underground transit which could cost alot more. I think in the end the taxpayers can't complain because this benefits everybody. This is good govt spending, trying to build better infrastructure for the state, more efficient T, less traffic-hopefully more jobs. (the big dig did get out of control, you just need to hold people accountable again)
Than enriching abunch of private CEO assholes on the back of the taxpayers.
BCEC 200 Million
46.5 Million to Liberty Mutual
Vertex 72 Million.
55 Million to Evergreen
Fidelity, JPM
Then creating more taxes
BID, Non-profits, Greenway taxes

Leave the building to the private sector and focus on the city & state infrastructure. Ease up on the Zoning laws for the private developers........

Because in the end corporations would have flocked to that area. It's on the water- with easy transit access.

I'm not saying it won't be success it just seems they made sure they built this area backwards.
 
Re: South Boston Seaport

BostonUrbEx said:
I also don't get the massive swing out to the courthouse, half it's service radius is water. It should have shot up Congress St hitting the historic wharf district, BCEC/WTC, then running with the Ted with perhaps a stop under the BOA/Harpoon Brewery before going down below the harbor.
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Congress St? Seaport Blvd is exactly the right place for it. It also crosses under congress to get near the BCEC.
 
Re: South Boston Seaport

I've never shirked from criticizing the BRA but...

I wouldn't hold the City accountable for the shortcomings of the Silver Line (e.g. rail vs. bus, underground vs. above ground).

My recollection is that the tunnel for the Silver Line was integrated into the CAT/Tunnel project (largely Federal/State agencies and quasi-public authorities including MBTA and Massport). I'd bank on many of the long-term ideals falling short mainly because ridership projections in the short term didn't support the expenditure given the Artery budget and MBTA finances. At the time, the Silver Line plans were considered shortsighted by many advocates for light rail and those interested in visionary planning at any cost.

At the time CAT/Tunnel and the MBTA tunnel was being planned and subsequently built, the City/BRA was actually doing a reasonably good job of planning the Waterfront. It was the follow-through that fell short well after the Silver Line was under way, IMO because of City politics and wrangling by property owners (Pritzker, McCourt et al.).

It's worth noting that the Silver Line does travel underground for nearly all parcels under BRA zoning/planning jurisdiction. It exits the tunnel at D Street, into Massport territory which gives the BRA and advisory role but not zoning control.
 
Re: South Boston Seaport

BostonUrbEx said:
Was the Silver Line being drawn up before or after the Ted Williams was being built? Had it been before, they should have account for putting tracks somewhere in the middle or to the sides. Obviously now it would be too costly and potentially damaging to add a tube, but at the time it would have been nice.

I also don't get the massive swing out to the courthouse, half it's service radius is water. It should have shot up Congress St hitting the historic wharf district, BCEC/WTC, then running with the Ted with perhaps a stop under the BOA/Harpoon Brewery before going down below the harbor.
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The Ted Williams was built long before the Silver Line was approved. They did time construction of the Silver Line with the Big Dig on Atlantic Ave and in the Dewey Square / South station area because clearances between the northbound Big Dig tunnel and the Red Line were very tight. The Silver Line tunnel across the channel had to be built factoring in existing building footprints and subsurface geology. As it was, IIRC, the surveys missed a big glacial rock in the tidal mud in the Channel and removing that took a lot of time and money. Some of the route was dictated by having to follow existing rights-of-way; as it was, I think McCourt either donated the land for the Courthouse station, or sold it cheap.
 
Re: South Boston Seaport

Good recall.

On the McCourt piece, I remember a protracted negotiation involving a lucrative deal or a significant land swap in exchange for the Silver Line land. I don't think it was donated or cheap.

The only Seaport McCourt parcel that I remember was donated was the land dedicated by the McCourts for use as a park (near the Moakley Bridge). The park was put in the care of the Childrens Museum and the Childrens Museum proceeded to turn part of it into a parking lot -- still a bone of contention for some.
 
Re: South Boston Seaport

Courthouse Station is so large and elaborate because it was supposed to be the centerpiece of McCourt's development, which never happened. (And now he's making a complete mess of the Los Angeles Dodgers.)
 
Re: South Boston Seaport

The Ted's original design had a third tube intended for transit, but that was cut from the design to save money. Mainly because the Silver Line was in idea phase when this was being hashed out in the late-80's, but not yet formally planned. Dukakis and Salvucci really wanted it on grounds that they'd never get a chance to build it later if they didn't act preemptively, but for big picture purposes they had to compromise that one away to appease Congress and safely secure the massive Big Dig appropriation.

T officials have admitted that SL should've been light rail from Day 1 for buildability's sake. BRT was all the rage as some wave-of-future thing in the 90's, and it got all political. They hedged that the best chance of funding would be to go with the "it" thing. That makes some degree of sense...until you remember that the BRT design for the whole thing including Phase III was absolutely, utterly unbuildable on a proper bus mode's footprint, required too many ugly hacks and speed compromises, and laughably glossed over surface impacts like the loop at Boylston screwing with building foundations and the burial ground. Same deal as we're seeing with South Coast Rail and other travesties like the Hartford-New Britain busway in CT: the topmost pols and planners are so larded up and there are so many intermediary consultants similarly larded up that the engineers' screaming about how it's a design no-go never reaches the top of the chain before it's snuffed out. And the public gets over-promised a shovel-ready project when just finding more ugly-hack workarounds for the design's fatal flaws means design's only 30% actually complete when the public's being told it's 90%. And then everybody's shocked--shocked!--when things are so far from ready that they get shut out of the free cash from heaven they assumed the feds would rain down to bankroll it all.


It would be operating today if they went with rail and didn't fall so far behind on initial design. But that's what out-of-control project management and too many fingers stirring the pot nets you every time: a house divided that cannot stand.
 
Re: South Boston Seaport

What would be a good solution to make Seaport more T accessible much more efficiently?

A. Continue with the Silverline (maybe more Silverline buses)
B. Build a Monorail over the water connected from Aquaruim to Seaport (might be cool but probably very expensive)
C. Research another underground T-Transit in specific locations if possible
D. Don't change anything?

The only problem is the amount of tax breaks we give these private corps it becomes very difficult to focus the city & state resources on projects like these. If these projects were mapped out from the beginning I believe the public would not say a word about how their tax money has been spent as long as companies and individuals were held accountable for budgets and quotes.
 
Re: South Boston Seaport

TheRifleman said:
What would be a good solution to make Seaport more T accessible much more efficiently?

A. Continue with the Silverline (maybe more Silverline buses)
B. Build a Monorail over the water connected from Aquaruim to Seaport (might be cool but probably very expensive)
C. Research another underground T-Transit in specific locations if possible
D. Don't change anything?

The only problem is the amount of tax breaks we give these private corps it becomes very difficult to focus the city & state resources on projects like these. If these projects were mapped out from the beginning I believe the public would not say a word about how their tax money has been spent as long as companies and individuals were held accountable for budgets and quotes.
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I would say connecting the Green Line to the Transitway and running the tunnel as a dual rail/bus subway where trolleys loop at Silver Line way but continue inbound to downtown and airport buses loop at South Station. And also the Transitway should be where Urban Ring BRT connects via Southie to pour more traffic into the tunnel. It can be rigged up to support both modes with passing turnouts and such.

Unfortunately we're probably not going to get that for a long time because even building Phase III on a light rail footprint under-street is mind-bogglingly expensive because of utility relocation. The most efficient construction means is to wait until the North-South Rail Link is built and piggyback the SL III tunnel on top of the very long RR tunnel that'll be built from South Station to the Providence and Worcester Lines just outside of Back Bay. One tunnel on top of the other, with the trolleys originating from the old abandoned Tremont St. tunnel and only needing 1-1/2 blocks of under-street construction to get there. But that's dependent on N-S Link schedule, which we might not see any movement on for 20 years.

Think we're stuck with what we have for awhile, although they really could increase utilization by laying out an initial route from Dudley to Southie to the Transitway on the southeast quadrant of the Urban Ring. Just make it a surface crosstown bus to start and then keep tweaking it by adding bus lanes on Southampton St. and Melnea Cass Blvd. until it's up to the spec they wanted for Urban Ring Phase II. That's one of the least expensive URII quadrants because there's not really any dedicated ROW options, only bus lane potential. The network doesn't need to be a monolithic build...just get this running and use the Transitway. I think that's the only other route than the airport that'll generate useful ridership, since City Point was such a failure.
 
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