Seaport Neighborhood - Infill and Discussion

[tmac9wr]

Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

I don't think people who truely are trying to save money, would call 1500 affordable. Really its more like, affordable amenities for the trendy. 1500 can get you a lot in lively, T accesible Allston.

Agreed. The SBW/ID/SPID/Whatever is an example of a totally un-established neighborhood in Boston...possibly the last one left. As everyone here knows, it's a neighborhood which has three things: the convention center, precast office park buildings, and parking lots. It's incredibly bare, and the few things that are there are aimed at those who aren't short on money.

This neighborhood doesn't have the amenities to serve the recent graduate quite yet. They've got Remy's, the Barking Crab, Whiskey Priest and Atlantic Beer Garden for bars, but anything else is a hoity-toity joint with expensive food and drinks, and a quiet environment. Nearby Southie offers more in terms of other young professionals & singles, and much more in terms of bars/restaurants aimed at their demographic. The only advantage the SBW has is the ability to possibly have more attractive prices. $1,500 a month for a tiny studio is pretty steep in a neighborhood which doesn't offer too much. It makes sense to pay these prices in Fenway, Cambridge, or Brookline--hell even a sizable studio in Southie or Allston makes more sense at $1,500 than in SBW.

If they come in with a $1,000 per month asking price it'll fill quickly, and other projects aimed at young professionals in terms of bars, etc (particularly along Fort Point) will probably come along. Once this actually becomes a neighborhood, instead of a collection of office buildings, they'll be able to charge $1,500 or even more. The SBW has never been short on potential, only execution. Bringing young professionals into the area could be the kick in the butt this area needs...but charging a premium price right off the bat would likely lead to yet another missed opportunity for the district.

 

[Sicilian]

Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

Price is determined by the market, not an intended type of buyer.

Confirmed by realtors I've spoken with, there is PLENTY of demand for tiny apartments, but not the young professional demo suggested by the BRA.

It's inept for planning professionals to claim they've figured out ways to improve affordability without significantly increasing housing stock. The hype is even more apparent when you look at the actual "micro-unit" numbers in the approval pipeline. The numbers are scant, and they are rolling out at a rate of 50-100 units per year for the next 5 years.

Plenty of REAL opportunities recently existed in the ID to increase housing stock, notably at 316 Summer, 322 Summer and 399 Congress Street. The BRA put the kabosh on those projects by either nixing approvals or meddling in approvals. And at 381 Congress, the BRA just approved 28 micro-units and 16 ninety-day lease hotel units -- each of which they publicly announced as "housing units."

Last month the BRA widely publicized its approval for some micro-units at 63 Melcher. Lots of excitement from ID tech tweeters. Then people heard what rents might be. Last week, I heard the developer just filed ANOTHER Notice of Project Change, delaying the project for the nth time in 3 years. Not a peep from the BRA about this new Notice of Project Change in their press releases. Not a peep.

 

[TheRifleman]

Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

Billionaire's Daughter Pays Record Sum For NYC Pad

Luisa Kroll
December 19, 2011
Forbes





Former Citigroup chairman Sandy Weill listed his 6,744-sq-ft apartment at 15 Central Park West for an astonishing $88 million in November, promising to donate the proceeds of the sale to charity.

Now comes news that Ekaterina Rybolovleva, the 22-year-old daughter of Russian billionaire Dmitriy Rybolovlev, is buying the condominium. Rybolovleva is currently studying at an undisclosed U.S. university and plans to stay in the apartment when visiting New York. According to a source familiar with the sale, she paid the full asking price of $88 million setting a record for highest individual transaction in New York City history.

Here is the official statement from her representatives:

A company associated with Ekaterina Rybolovleva, daughter of a well-known businessman Dmitriy Rybolovlev, has signed a contract to purchase an apartment at 15 Central Park West, New York. The apartment is a condominium currently owned by the Sanford Weill Family.

Ms. Rybolovleva is currently studying at a US university. She plans to stay in the apartment when visiting New York. Ms. Rybolovleva was born in Russia, is a resident of Monaco and has resided in Monaco and Switzerland for the past 15 years.”

The apartment, in one of the toniest post-war buildings in Manhattan, has 10 rooms including 4 bedrooms, a wraparound terrace of more than 2,000 sq. feet, 4 bedrooms and 2 wood burning fireplaces.

“This sale is an outlier. It works out to be about $13,000 per sq. foot, the highest on record, for anything, that has ever occurred,” says Jonathan Miller, chief executive of real estate appraiser Miller Samuel, “What is ironic is that when Sandy Weill bought it for less than half this amount, he paid the highest price per sq foot to date in that building, around, $6,400 per sq. foot. He is again setting a record.”

The previous New York City record had been set back before the market crash when investor Christopher Flowers paid $53 million for a townhouse at 4 east 75th Street. He resold the property on August 15 for just over $36 million.

There were two other very notable sales in the city this year, according to Miller. Russian composer Igor Krutoy paid a record $48 million for a condo at the Plaza in March, and a townhouse at 16 East 69th Street sold for $48 million in July.

Rybolovleva is the second daughter of a billionaire to make huge real estate news this year. Back in July, heiress Petra Ecclestone, daughter of UK Formula One billionaire Bernie Ecclestone, apparently paid $85 million for Spelling Manor, the 56,500-square foot mansion that was previously owned by Candy Spelling, widow of famed TV producer Aaron Spelling, whose works include the “Beverly Hills 90210,” “Charlie’s Angels,” and “Dynasty” series.

Rybolovleva’s father Dmitriy sold the majority of his stake in Uralkali, the fertilizer business that made him rich, for $6.5 billion in 2010. He is already known in U.S. real estate circles for his May 2008 purchase of Donald Trump’s Palm Beach mansion, Maison de L’Amitie. He paid $95 million in cash for that residence, $25 million less than what Trump had originally asked. It was apparently the largest single residence price concession of all time. He may not own that house much longer though. His wife Elena, who filed for divorce in Palm Beach court in 2009, is seeking transfer of ownership of the former Trump mansion. He himself spends much of his time at his home in Monaco and is likely to buy the struggling French football club, AS Monaco.

The listing broker would not allow Forbes to reprint images of the apartment but readers can view a photo and floor plan on its site. The New York Observer also has a slideshow with images.

http://www.boston.com/partners/verticalacuity/va_template.html?vaid=025616125882112bfea1d8b5ccba4796

Boston really has a disconnect for property values compared to NYC prime RE.

Backbay, NorthEnd, Greenway and even the DTX will continue to increase in value. I think the Innovation district's studio apartments might not be that appealing in the long-term.

 

[Lurker]

Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

NYC can't be compared to Boston. Their insane RE prices are rent control regulation driven bubbles. If the entire housing stock of NYC were to return to market level pricing there would be a massive shift of housing prices back to reality. Luxury housing grossly underpriced around central park would go to the moon, everywhere else would crash significantly.

 

[vanshnookenraggen]

Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

NYC can't be compared to Boston. Their insane RE prices are rent control regulation driven bubbles.

Ummm... what? Get some perspective. There are only a few slices of NYC where you find those prices (basically exactly where you would imagine: 5th Ave, Central Park West, Riverside Drive, Soho/Tribeca) Outside of that there are many areas of the city that are very affordable. Not in Manhattan mind you but even there, up in Harlem and parts of the Lower East Side there are more affordable options that are still ONLY affordable because of rent control.

NYC has insane prices because everyone wants to live there and there is very little on the market (vacany is below 1%) It isn't a bubble, it's simple supply and demand.

 

[Lurker]

Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

Rent Stabilization is still rent control. It distorts the housing market in that people will always charge a maximum on the basis of worrying about recouping costs later. It additionally causes many people to remain in housing stock longer than usual simply to maintain a cheap rate. This stunting on the normal turnover cycle hurts overall availability for new tenants and makes landlords very eager to jack the rent as high as possible just in case the tenant decides to stay put for 20 years.

Housing court is also a joke in NYC. You could have a crazy tenant not pay rent, burn the place down, and hold a Satanic ritual on the ashes and half the time the judges wouldn't approve an eviction for cause.

 

[HenryAlan]

Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

Yes. Boston wouldn't be one of the most expensive cities to live in if it didn't have something special.

Yep, see this:

Price is determined by the market, not an intended type of buyer.

But, we shouldn't be satisfied with the result. Yes, Boston is a high value location with huge demand pressuring prices. This is good for me as a small time landlord, but I'd rather see that demand translate into infill construction throughout the city, causing a faster population growth, which I think would be better for the city as a whole. The problem is that demand is controlled by the market, but supply is artificially constrained by the BRA.

 

[Sicilian]

Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

But, we shouldn't be satisfied with the result. Yes, Boston is a high value location with huge demand pressuring prices. This is good for me as a small time landlord, but I'd rather see that demand translate into infill construction throughout the city, causing a faster population growth, which I think would be better for the city as a whole. The problem is that demand is controlled by the market, but supply is artificially constrained by the BRA.

I'm with you 100%.

My point was that gimmicks in small quantities (i.e. ID micro-units, BRA-qualified affordable units, artist live/work units) are overblown in terms of meeting the BRA's own stated objectives for these building types.

While the units may prove valuable to a few tenants, this has to be called out as nothing more than a public relations effort, particularly since the BRA frequently exercises its power in order to suppress or otherwise manipulate Boston's housing supply.

The paradox is that the BRA often states that it is powerless in the market, while so obviously constraining the market.

I suspect that these gimmicks make housing MORE difficult to produce.

 

[itchy]

Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

I'd rather see that demand translate into infill construction throughout the city, causing a faster population growth, which I think would be better for the city as a whole. The problem is that demand is controlled by the market, but supply is artificially constrained by the BRA.

Well said. What will it take to get some reform of the BRA? Is there anything that could lead to "ordinary" Bostonians getting fed up with it and demanding the next mayor (fingers crossed that Menino will, at some point, lose or step down) scrap or curtail the BRA?

 

[TheRifleman]

Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

Well said. What will it take to get some reform of the BRA? Is there anything that could lead to "ordinary" Bostonians getting fed up with it and demanding the next mayor (fingers crossed that Menino will, at some point, lose or step down) scrap or curtail the BRA?

Menino.... probably will not step down.

I think the question you have to ask yourself is
How would Boston function without the BRA developmental process? and how would Boston Architectural scene evolve for Positive or Negative outlook?

It might be time to selloff all the assets of the BRA to the private industry to start paying off the unfunded liability pensions that this state has accummalated.

http://www.usdebtclock.org/state-debt-clocks/state-of-massachusetts-debt-clock.html

 

[Lurker]

Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

The answer to the billion dollar question about what Boston's development scene would look without the BRA is hard to pin down. Would the city, as it was from the late 1920s onward, be overshadowed and overlooked by developers for New York and other developing cities for reasons of demographics, geography, climate, and being an unfriendly to businesses political muck pit? Or would Boston see development on par with the Victorian heydays?

The fact downtown is considered so valuable, yet it is rather run down, vacant, and slow to redevelop, leads me to believe either a large part of the city is overvalued or there's enough political gaming going on to dissuade prospective developments. The same is true for the Seaport. A blank slate with so many plans, financiers, and proposals over the years, yet no one seems to have the will to pull the trigger. Almost anywhere else with such supposedly valuable land in such a supposedly desirable location construction would have started yesterday, yet the Seaport has languished for 30+ years.

 

[Sicilian]

Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

... the Seaport has languished for 30+ years

...except for those Seaport parcels NOT under the jurisdiction of the BRA -- Massport's land and the Convention Center.

 

[Shepard]

Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

Back to the question of affordability, I'm always struck by the comparison with DC, where the Dupont area, literally blocks from downtown, is generally considered to be affordable to recent college grads who have landed a solid entry level job. Back Bay, South End, North End, Beacon Hill etc - are far from similar in this regard. Boston's young affordable neighborhoods end up being further out - Allston, Somerville, etc. Why?

 

[Lurker]

Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

The city being on a peninsula creates a geographic limitation and the proximity of universities close to downtown creates a market bubble for student housing which hurts the post-grad market availability or affordability.

 

[Arborway]

Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

The fact downtown is considered so valuable, yet it is rather run down, vacant, and slow to redevelop, leads me to believe either a large part of the city is overvalued or there's enough political gaming going on to dissuade prospective developments. The same is true for the Seaport. A blank slate with so many plans, financiers, and proposals over the years, yet no one seems to have the will to pull the trigger. Almost anywhere else with such supposedly valuable land in such a supposedly desirable location construction would have started yesterday, yet the Seaport has languished for 30+ years.

It's almost as though the Mayor For Life is concerned about demographic shifts.

 

[JohnAKeith]

Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

Re: micro units. Where else do you expect the prostitutes to live after they open the casino nearby???

 

[Oakley]

Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

The city being on a peninsula creates a geographic limitation and the proximity of universities close to downtown creates a market bubble for student housing which hurts the post-grad market availability or affordability.

Doesn't DC have a large college student body base as well? I know it's not Boston, but it's a good size demographic population.

If Boston is going to compete in the start-up, and maintain them as they grow, they need to figure out a way to make the cost of living attractive enough. It isn't just competing with Silicon Valley or New York City anymore, you're competing with the rest of the country, and the world.

 

[TheRifleman]

Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

The answer to the billion dollar question about what Boston's development scene would look without the BRA is hard to pin down. Would the city, as it was from the late 1920s onward, be overshadowed and overlooked by developers for New York and other developing cities for reasons of demographics, geography, climate, and being an unfriendly to businesses political muck pit? Or would Boston see development on par with the Victorian heydays?

The fact downtown is considered so valuable, yet it is rather run down, vacant, and slow to redevelop, leads me to believe either a large part of the city is overvalued or there's enough political gaming going on to dissuade prospective developments. The same is true for the Seaport. A blank slate with so many plans, financiers, and proposals over the years, yet no one seems to have the will to pull the trigger. Almost anywhere else with such supposedly valuable land in such a supposedly desirable location construction would have started yesterday, yet the Seaport has languished for 30+ years.

Boston should be a world class city. When people talk about Silicon Valley . Do people realize that the most powerful companies were created in MASS.
MSFT & Facebook founders both created their companies while going to school at Harvard. They could not leave this state fast enough for the West Coast. I believe Mass has the higher education going for itself but the Politics chase out the Dreamers to make a better environment somewhere else.

The Demand is defintely in Boston but its being kept dormant because of Politics.

Seaport should have evolved over the last 30 years consistently. Instead MA Taxpayers are getting the development slammed down their throat with having No real plan in place. The Seaport District will be thrown together like a circus rolled into town.

#1 Nice small Strip of waterfront Bars and Restaurants (positive)
#2 Bunch of Box building Condos (Postive)
#3 Fan Pier Development (a Box building with Blue Lights (Nothing to brag about)

#4 300ft Mini studios presented (I think a bad idea) But what do I know......

 

[greenwayguy1982]

Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

Lurker - how can you say that downtown is "run down, vacant, and slow to redevelop?" What part of downtown is "run down" and "vacant" with the exception of Filene's, whose demise had everything to do with the 2008 economic collapse and nothing to do with "Politics" since it was already permitted?

And Rifleman, can you explain how "Politics" keeps demand for office and residential space dormant? Have you noticed how many new residential projects have started construction in the last 12 months? Has "Politics" kept those projects dormant? SOmetimes I feel like you lay blame for problems that don't exist at the feet of "Politicians" without any real evidence as to the existence of this phenomenon.

IMHO, it's the state of the office market nationally (and Boston is doing better than 90% of cities nationally in this regard) that is preventing more office development from moving forward in the Seaport, and anyone who thinks that residential development in the Seaport is stalled has been living under a rock....the BRA just approved 350 more units at Pier 4 and a company from Portland is starting construction on 250 units in Fort Point in a couple months. If anything, the permitting process for new projects has been accelerated recently, not slowed down....thoughts?

 

[Ron Newman]

Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport

What part of downtown is "run down" and "vacant" with the exception of Filene's

Large swaths of Washington Street, Winter Street, Bromfield Street storefronts are vacant. Tremont Street across from the Common doesn't look so great either, except for Emerson College's properties. Have you taken a walk around there lately?