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Seaport Neighborhood - Infill and Discussion
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jdrinboston
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Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport
Is there any reason why they can't have a slew of buses at SLW queing up and entering the tunnel every minute...stopping occassionally to let a Logan bus through. This could result in buses entering the station on a continuous loop from 4 p.m. to 6:30 p.m.? It seems like they have the space for it over there. Most of the growth seems like it will be on the World Trade Ctr/Courthouse/South Station corridor, which is completely grade separated.
As a positive consequence, this should spur on some of the stalled residential projects in the neighborhood, as people look to live close to work to avoid the commute.
Is there any reason why they can't have a slew of buses at SLW queing up and entering the tunnel every minute...stopping occassionally to let a Logan bus through. This could result in buses entering the station on a continuous loop from 4 p.m. to 6:30 p.m.? It seems like they have the space for it over there. Most of the growth seems like it will be on the World Trade Ctr/Courthouse/South Station corridor, which is completely grade separated.
As a positive consequence, this should spur on some of the stalled residential projects in the neighborhood, as people look to live close to work to avoid the commute.
Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport
^exactly. wouldn't 3 buses that just do a SLW to SS loop all grade separated add a ton of capacity. Plus then you have other SL1/2s going through there as well. I think they should also work on some logan express routes. Sometimes you can see it fills and they should have the ability to just be like, next stop terminal A
^exactly. wouldn't 3 buses that just do a SLW to SS loop all grade separated add a ton of capacity. Plus then you have other SL1/2s going through there as well. I think they should also work on some logan express routes. Sometimes you can see it fills and they should have the ability to just be like, next stop terminal A
Shepard
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Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport
I maintain that the Airport might as well be a surface non-dual mode express route. Summer Street by South Station, segregated lane on Summer Street to an intermediate stop at BCEC and then straight into the TWT.
I maintain that the Airport might as well be a surface non-dual mode express route. Summer Street by South Station, segregated lane on Summer Street to an intermediate stop at BCEC and then straight into the TWT.
AmericanFolkLegend
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Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport
Exactly. I live in Charlestown and work in South Boston and have to drive to work some days. On those days if I don't leave the office by 4:30 I wait until after 6:00.
Exactly. I live in Charlestown and work in South Boston and have to drive to work some days. On those days if I don't leave the office by 4:30 I wait until after 6:00.
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Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport
If you're at that point where you're feeding bus after bus after bus, it's time to just upgrade to LRV...
If you're at that point where you're feeding bus after bus after bus, it's time to just upgrade to LRV...
jdrinboston
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Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport
That's all well and good. How many billions of dollars in bonds will Mass have to sell to fund that and will the tunnels that are there be usable while the work is going on? We haven't even touched on the millions of dollars for federal environmental studies required just to have a discussion about transit expansion.
What funding mechanism will be put in place to pay off those bonds? And are we talking about building a fourth harbor tunnel to serve the airport? The East Boston neighborhood got a lot of sweeteners (parks, toll discounts etc) for allowing the TWT to go through in the 90s, surely they are going to ask for more in exchange for another tunnel. (A transit tunnel is infinitely better than a highway tunnel, but neighborhoods never miss a chance to extort goodies from the state)
It's easy to say just upgrade to LRV and in an ideal world, that would probably be the way to go. But the reality is we don't have the debt capacity to make that happen, and we have the ability to queue up a few extra buses for 2 to 3 hours a day and basically serve the same purpose.
That's all well and good. How many billions of dollars in bonds will Mass have to sell to fund that and will the tunnels that are there be usable while the work is going on? We haven't even touched on the millions of dollars for federal environmental studies required just to have a discussion about transit expansion.
What funding mechanism will be put in place to pay off those bonds? And are we talking about building a fourth harbor tunnel to serve the airport? The East Boston neighborhood got a lot of sweeteners (parks, toll discounts etc) for allowing the TWT to go through in the 90s, surely they are going to ask for more in exchange for another tunnel. (A transit tunnel is infinitely better than a highway tunnel, but neighborhoods never miss a chance to extort goodies from the state)
It's easy to say just upgrade to LRV and in an ideal world, that would probably be the way to go. But the reality is we don't have the debt capacity to make that happen, and we have the ability to queue up a few extra buses for 2 to 3 hours a day and basically serve the same purpose.
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Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport
I agree with you. The point being that at that point it's time to start discussing the issues you cite and come up with an operable plan.
I agree with you. The point being that at that point it's time to start discussing the issues you cite and come up with an operable plan.
Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport
I find it amusing that just a few weeks ago was an article with people criticizing how the BRA is reducing parking minimums in new developments. Looks like in the Seaport it's still not low enough. Even if they built more parking, the roads are already full at rush hour, with only about half the development that's expected to take place.
Oh if only they had made the Silver Line an actual train. In the meantime, they should run more frequent buses. Instead of all these companies running their own private shuttles, perhaps they could put their money together to pay to run more frequent Silver Line service!
I find it amusing that just a few weeks ago was an article with people criticizing how the BRA is reducing parking minimums in new developments. Looks like in the Seaport it's still not low enough. Even if they built more parking, the roads are already full at rush hour, with only about half the development that's expected to take place.
Oh if only they had made the Silver Line an actual train. In the meantime, they should run more frequent buses. Instead of all these companies running their own private shuttles, perhaps they could put their money together to pay to run more frequent Silver Line service!
Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport
The transitway is going to need a new floor sooner rather then later, its already super bumpy and coming apart in places. When they do that it wouldn't cost a drastic amount more to sink some rails into the concrete. That, and raising the return feed on the overhead (so the trolley pantographs dont short out) is all you would need to do to have trolleys do a loop from South Station to SLW. The busses could still go beyond that as they do now. The only real issue is that the trolleys would be stuck crawling behind the buses, unless they install some guidance system for them (which they should have done from the start). When the type 9 order comes online and the type 7s get back from their rehab program there may be a very slight surplus, perhaps enough to be able to send 4 or so trolleys to do a seaport shuttle.
The B St I-93 tunnel is on the small disjointed section of B Street in front of the convention center. Google maps shows it pretty well.
As for the article, this is what I was just arguing earlier about having only a limited arteries to get drivers out of the seaport. The Northern Ave bridge should have remained open to traffic, and more N-S streets should have been pulled through from southie to encourage the flow to go both N-S and E-W. If its a huge problem they could probably open the truck road to general traffic, which despite being out of the way would probably be faster then fighting to get through the traffic on the greenway.
Regarding the seaport past the pavillion being dead, it is. However, Harpoon is a bit of a niche, and I regard everything past the pavilion to still be very much "working waterfront". I'm sure that area will eventually get some life to it just from spill over, but not until the seaport proper is fully built out. I think Harpoon wanted the beer hall to have that industrial dynamic anyway, it is more authentic.
The transitway is going to need a new floor sooner rather then later, its already super bumpy and coming apart in places. When they do that it wouldn't cost a drastic amount more to sink some rails into the concrete. That, and raising the return feed on the overhead (so the trolley pantographs dont short out) is all you would need to do to have trolleys do a loop from South Station to SLW. The busses could still go beyond that as they do now. The only real issue is that the trolleys would be stuck crawling behind the buses, unless they install some guidance system for them (which they should have done from the start). When the type 9 order comes online and the type 7s get back from their rehab program there may be a very slight surplus, perhaps enough to be able to send 4 or so trolleys to do a seaport shuttle.
The B St I-93 tunnel is on the small disjointed section of B Street in front of the convention center. Google maps shows it pretty well.
As for the article, this is what I was just arguing earlier about having only a limited arteries to get drivers out of the seaport. The Northern Ave bridge should have remained open to traffic, and more N-S streets should have been pulled through from southie to encourage the flow to go both N-S and E-W. If its a huge problem they could probably open the truck road to general traffic, which despite being out of the way would probably be faster then fighting to get through the traffic on the greenway.
Regarding the seaport past the pavillion being dead, it is. However, Harpoon is a bit of a niche, and I regard everything past the pavilion to still be very much "working waterfront". I'm sure that area will eventually get some life to it just from spill over, but not until the seaport proper is fully built out. I think Harpoon wanted the beer hall to have that industrial dynamic anyway, it is more authentic.
Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport
"Heavy traffic has planners scrambling."
Planners don't scramble.
It takes 5-10 years to plan funding of transportation upgrades, and 5-10 years to implement the upgrades. You don't wait until Silver Line buses must be lined up to begin a light rail upgrade funding discussion.
The Seaport will be stunted by this lack of planning, which should have been tasked yearly since year 2000.
Furthermore, the quality of development already emerging on the waterfront will itself limit public support for significant further investment. I'd suggest if standards for the waterfront/Seaport were higher, the public would be more inclined to support mass transit upgrades.
My suggestions:
1. Open the Haul Road/Bypass Road to all traffic. Restrictions were in place based on outdated assumptions regarding Massport's industrial (truck) plans, now office/hotel towers.
2. Incentivize residential development to ease demand, and introduce more of a walk-to-work approach.
3. Possibly open Old Northern Ave bridge for limited vehicular access. This is already under consideration.
4. I'm increasingly skeptical about light rail. I don't think property owners are living up to their end of the bargain to make this worthwhile.
5. Anything to do with walking and biking would be a plus.
"Heavy traffic has planners scrambling."
Planners don't scramble.
It takes 5-10 years to plan funding of transportation upgrades, and 5-10 years to implement the upgrades. You don't wait until Silver Line buses must be lined up to begin a light rail upgrade funding discussion.
The Seaport will be stunted by this lack of planning, which should have been tasked yearly since year 2000.
Furthermore, the quality of development already emerging on the waterfront will itself limit public support for significant further investment. I'd suggest if standards for the waterfront/Seaport were higher, the public would be more inclined to support mass transit upgrades.
My suggestions:
1. Open the Haul Road/Bypass Road to all traffic. Restrictions were in place based on outdated assumptions regarding Massport's industrial (truck) plans, now office/hotel towers.
2. Incentivize residential development to ease demand, and introduce more of a walk-to-work approach.
3. Possibly open Old Northern Ave bridge for limited vehicular access. This is already under consideration.
4. I'm increasingly skeptical about light rail. I don't think property owners are living up to their end of the bargain to make this worthwhile.
5. Anything to do with walking and biking would be a plus.
bostoneophyte
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Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport
TheRifleman
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Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport
It's too late to begin to think about a future operable plan. That's like building a skyscraper then saying I think we need to focus on the foundation of the building. LOL The developers are already building on top of the Infrastructure.
When the BRA, City planners should have presented a plan to build the Base & Foundation of the city MBTA transit with taxpayers funding then promote the area for easy development with for private developers. Seaport would have been an instant success no matter what.
Instead we give our money to help Fallon lowering his building costs to help relocate a tenant already located in Mass.
The only future operable plan is BUS to BUS to BUS. First class planners my @ss. The BRA should be scrapped.
Boston = LA
It's too late to begin to think about a future operable plan. That's like building a skyscraper then saying I think we need to focus on the foundation of the building. LOL The developers are already building on top of the Infrastructure.
When the BRA, City planners should have presented a plan to build the Base & Foundation of the city MBTA transit with taxpayers funding then promote the area for easy development with for private developers. Seaport would have been an instant success no matter what.
Instead we give our money to help Fallon lowering his building costs to help relocate a tenant already located in Mass.
The only future operable plan is BUS to BUS to BUS. First class planners my @ss. The BRA should be scrapped.
Boston = LA
SeamusMcFly
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Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport
Which is beyond the main area of development at this time. I'd love it to be underground to and beyond Logan as has been discussed ad nauseum, however facts be facts. It is a subway from SS to the built out Massport lots. The big areas of development are between these.
Which is beyond the main area of development at this time. I'd love it to be underground to and beyond Logan as has been discussed ad nauseum, however facts be facts. It is a subway from SS to the built out Massport lots. The big areas of development are between these.
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Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport
WTF are you talking about? The transitway was designed for conversion to LRV. It's a very straightforward build. Will the Seaport ever be a hub with multiple lines? No. Maybe some surface Southie Trollies feeding the transitway.
First Boston's Detroit and now it's LA? My oh my, and here I thought it was Boston!
WTF are you talking about? The transitway was designed for conversion to LRV. It's a very straightforward build. Will the Seaport ever be a hub with multiple lines? No. Maybe some surface Southie Trollies feeding the transitway.
First Boston's Detroit and now it's LA? My oh my, and here I thought it was Boston!
TheRifleman
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Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport
Actually a Trolley line would be cool for the area.
Actually a Trolley line would be cool for the area.
Re: Innovation Dist. / South Boston Seaport
LA is all about trains these days and they're fighting WWIII against NIMBYs over TOD.
Metro did open a new BRT transitway less than a year after the MBTA Silver Line began running. Like the T, they ended up with a terrible, rutted, crumbling mess.
Unlike the T, they had a contractor repave it until the job was done properly and didn't just pretend like everything was fine while their brand new line literally crumbled away.
Metro has lots of issues, but they have much more forward momentum than the T. There's no comparison.
LA is all about trains these days and they're fighting WWIII against NIMBYs over TOD.
Metro did open a new BRT transitway less than a year after the MBTA Silver Line began running. Like the T, they ended up with a terrible, rutted, crumbling mess.
Unlike the T, they had a contractor repave it until the job was done properly and didn't just pretend like everything was fine while their brand new line literally crumbled away.
Metro has lots of issues, but they have much more forward momentum than the T. There's no comparison.