Silver Line to Chelsea

[BostonUrbEx]

Anyone have any idea what the travel time from downtown Chelsea to South Station will be during peak as well as off-peak hours? I actually don't have much of a sense of how bad the Ted is during rush hour...

The Ted usually isn't bad. Most of the traffic gets caught behind the Boardman St light further north.

 

[cybah]

darnit I didn't click submit before others replied, but here's the post anyways.

Sounds great except that the Chelsea Street bridge takes 30 minutes to go up and down, so the schedule will never be reliable.

Not really. I ride the 112 often and it's not THAT bad. Maybe 10-15 minutes or so, depending on the ship size.

But as far as the reliability, you have to keep in mind a few things:

MassDOT owns and operates the Chelsea Street bridge, not the US Coast Guard (this was transferred to MassDOT a few years ago I think).
This means MassDOT can control when the bridge goes up.
And this also means MassDOT will know when the bridge goes up.

These three points are are very important because..

From what was told to us at the community meetings at city hall, was that MassDOT and the T plan on using the also installed countdown LED boards at Airport Station and the stations along the new busway to alert passengers when the bridge is about to go up. This way passengers will know that it's going up, and they can either seek alternatives (especially at airport with the BL) or decide to wait. And I'm also sure the T will be aware also so they can hold buses at stations, so they don't bunch up and/or riders can get on or off and/or divert/turn-out buses.

The other points to remember are:

What makes it seem so long when the bridge goes up (and this is more about the Merdian St bridge, but applies to the Chelsea St too) is traffic. You're stuck there in traffic waiting... and waiting.. just to get to cross the bridge. It seems like forever, but in reality (and yes I've timed it) it's about ~10 minutes usually.

The nice thing about the SLG is that it uses very little city streets, so it's not going to sit in traffic since it's on a busway almost at both ends of the bridge so once the bridge goes back down, it should be one of the first few vehicles over the bridge just to get right back onto a traffic-free busway.

And yeah, sure, it still will slow things down, but at least you'll know (unlike the local buses currently) And honestly, as I described above in another post with trying to build a tunnel or a bridge, it's just not possible at all. (unless we want a mini-bigdig or a massive bridge the size of the tobin) So unfortunately we have to kind of deal with it, and the above is MassDOT's solution.

It will be interesting to see if/how it works and/or how effective it is. Regardless, there's not much we can do about it, and it should be far better than the 116/117 which because of traffic and signals, it can take like 30 minutes to get over the Meridian St bridge. I just don't feel it's going to be that much of the issue, if it's done right.

 

[cybah]

I'm sure this was covered somewhere but what are the ridership projections between Chelsea and Airport and Airport and South Station? I'm assuming more people will get off at Airport than ride to SBW but that will grow once the service takes hold and the SBW builds out.

I'd like to know this too. This is the part of the service, I'm very interested in because this is the first connection to the BL @ Airport. It's always bugged me that Chelsea, being so close to Logan, we have no direct connection. This (almost) solves that.

I'm sure it's in the SEIR doc somewhere, however I don't remember this being discussed much in any of the meetings as we were mainly focused on the alignment and station placement along the busway in Chelsea.

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

darnit I didn't click submit before others replied, but here's the post anyways.



Not really. I ride the 112 often and it's not THAT bad. Maybe 10-15 minutes or so, depending on the ship size.

But as far as the reliability, you have to keep in mind a few things:

MassDOT owns and operates the Chelsea Street bridge, not the US Coast Guard (this was transferred to MassDOT a few years ago I think).
This means MassDOT can control when the bridge goes up.
And this also means MassDOT will know when the bridge goes up.

These three points are are very important because..

From what was told to us at the community meetings at city hall, was that MassDOT and the T plan on using the also installed countdown LED boards at Airport Station and the stations along the new busway to alert passengers when the bridge is about to go up. This way passengers will know that it's going up, and they can either seek alternatives (especially at airport with the BL) or decide to wait. And I'm also sure the T will be aware also so they can hold buses at stations, so they don't bunch up and/or riders can get on or off and/or divert/turn-out buses.

The other points to remember are:

What makes it seem so long when the bridge goes up (and this is more about the Merdian St bridge, but applies to the Chelsea St too) is traffic. You're stuck there in traffic waiting... and waiting.. just to get to cross the bridge. It seems like forever, but in reality (and yes I've timed it) it's about ~10 minutes usually.

The nice thing about the SLG is that it uses very little city streets, so it's not going to sit in traffic since it's on a busway almost at both ends of the bridge so once the bridge goes back down, it should be one of the first few vehicles over the bridge just to get right back onto a traffic-free busway.

And yeah, sure, it still will slow things down, but at least you'll know (unlike the local buses currently) And honestly, as I described above in another post with trying to build a tunnel or a bridge, it's just not possible at all. (unless we want a mini-bigdig or a massive bridge the size of the tobin) So unfortunately we have to kind of deal with it, and the above is MassDOT's solution.

It will be interesting to see if/how it works and/or how effective it is. Regardless, there's not much we can do about it, and it should be far better than the 116/117 which because of traffic and signals, it can take like 30 minutes to get over the Meridian St bridge. I just don't feel it's going to be that much of the issue, if it's done right.

In addition to MassDOT getting hours of notice for a bridge opening to plot their dispatching around, the ships also keep a pretty regular schedule. It's not like this is a foreign concept in these parts. Even the drivers pretty much know by instinct what extra time to build in around typical times of day for a bridge opening. And the T dispatches the Yellow Line buses today with headway throttling around scheduled openings. Which happen a lot faster with the new lift than the creaky old bridge. The only thing that's changing with this Silver build is that they'll be more precise about it with a "brand-name" service vs. the Yellow Line, and the surrounding grade separation means they can dispatch Silver (or future light rail) packed closer to an opening than they can with the 112, which needs the extra unpredictability padding on-street.


To continue the thought on grade separation...in addition to that "barf bag-steep" incline making a parallel fixed bridge impossible and a redundant movable superfluous, the already pricey potential tunnel dig here gets even pricier when you consider how many times in the 100-year service life of a tunnel build is the river going to have to be dredged for deeper ships. You'd basically have to make a wild overprojection on tunnel depth because it's totally unknown what the shipping needs are going to be to the Eastie terminals in the year 2085. There's just no way the amount of extra depth fudge factor that would have to be baked in is ever going to be worth it. So plan on Chelsea St. bridge now, Chelsea St. bridge forever. And a mode that works with it: BRT begats LRT (or begats both), never HRT. Hey...it'll never be anywhere near as bad as the B Line at the BU Bridge clusterfuck. That much we can be sure of.

 

[cybah]

In addition to MassDOT getting hours of notice for a bridge opening to plot their dispatching around, the ships also keep a pretty regular schedule. It's not like this is a foreign concept in these parts. Even the drivers pretty much know by instinct what extra time to build in around typical times of day for a bridge opening. And the T dispatches the Yellow Line buses today with headway throttling around scheduled openings. Which happen a lot faster with the new lift than the creaky old bridge. The only thing that's changing with this Silver build is that they'll be more precise about it with a "brand-name" service vs. the Yellow Line, and the surrounding grade separation means they can dispatch Silver (or future light rail) packed closer to an opening than they can with the 112, which needs the extra unpredictability padding on-street.

I agree. That's the other thing people forget is that the ships do come to port on set schedules so it's not random. Its also tied to the tides (so to speak) too. I know if its low tide, its rare for a large boat to go into the creek.

I also didn't know the T actually does adjust the local bus routes for the bridge going up. It sure doesn't seem like it tho.. but interesting. I do know the bus drivers are aware because they look at the tides to know if the bridge goes up or not.

Thanks F-Line. You really do learn something every day.

 

[whighlander]

...To continue the thought on grade separation...in addition to that "barf bag-steep" incline making a parallel fixed bridge impossible and a redundant movable superfluous, the already pricey potential tunnel dig here gets even pricier when you consider how many times in the 100-year service life of a tunnel build is the river going to have to be dredged for deeper ships. You'd basically have to make a wild overprojection on tunnel depth because it's totally unknown what the shipping needs are going to be to the Eastie terminals in the year 2085. There's just no way the amount of extra depth fudge factor that would have to be baked in is ever going to be worth it. So plan on Chelsea St. bridge now, Chelsea St. bridge forever. And a mode that works with it: BRT begats LRT (or begats both), never HRT. Hey...it'll never be anywhere near as bad as the B Line at the BU Bridge clusterfuck. That much we can be sure of.

FLine -- there are limits as to how much dredging is worth doing in the inner harbor

When the 50' trenching was done for the 40' diameter TWT immersed tube tunnel they limited the draft of a ship entering the inner harbor to high tide + water depth over the rock piled on top of the TWT tubes

Only a couple of times a year could you realistically drive a bigger ship than 40' draft

 

[winstonoboogie]

I also didn't know the T actually does adjust the local bus routes for the bridge going up. It sure doesn't seem like it tho.. but interesting. I do know the bus drivers are aware because they look at the tides to know if the bridge goes up or not.

.

The specific departure times for the 114/116/117 and 112 are not based around specific bridge openings. The round-trip running times for the routes do have some padding in them to try to account for potential delays from the bridge openings. However, the larger the vessel, the longer it will take to pass. The bridges also have to open for the tugs returning, and how long that takes can vary.

 

[FK4]

That bridge actually has surprisingly little clearance, even for smaller craft. We took my dad's outboard up Chelsea Creek/River whatever it is (which was awesome) and I surprised at low the bridge was.

 

[datadyne007]

The Washington Ave bridge will be closing indefinitely on Tuesday, May 26 for the SL Gateway.

Chief Brian Kyes
‏@ChiefKyes
Effective Tuesday May 26th @ 10am the Washington Avenue Bridge located in Chelsea will be closed as part of the MassDOT Silverline Project
https://twitter.com/ChiefKyes/status/600777577901510656

Chief Brian Kyes
@ChiefKyes · May 19
Appropriate detour signs will be in place to redirect traffic, pedestrians, and bus stop relocations for approximately 6-12 months.

--
They have already been closing it intermittently and it has been causing absolute traffic chaos in Chelsea resulting in severely delayed emergency response times. The City of Chelsea is sticking their fingers in their ears regarding the Chelsea FD's request to have a temporary fire station on Everett Ave:

Chelsea Fire Dept. @FDChelseaMA · May 19
City says no to temporary fire station on Everett Ave even though it was completely paid for by Silverline Project.
https://twitter.com/FDChelseaMA/status/600616527444856832

--
We have some serious problems going on in Chelsea right now re: funding for the CFD. One of the ladders has been broken for 50 days now and the other breaks regularly (like today, we have no active ladders in Chelsea requiring help from surrounding towns). The CFD claims that the City is wary about the temp station because it would prove Chelsea needs a 4th engine, which the City refuses to invest in. Seriously, as a Chelsea resident that lives in a building that requires a "high rise response" this is deplorable to me.

Chelsea Fire Dept. ‏@FDChelseaMA May 19
@CJ45785 they r worried that if the temp station opened it would prove what several studies have stated... a 4th engine is needed in Chelsea

https://twitter.com/FDChelseaMA/status/600622009249189888

 

[cden4]

How much truth is there behind this article?
http://www.chelsearecord.com/2015/02/12/lamattina-takes-on-chelsea-st-bridge-issues/

Especially:
"MassDOT spokesman Michael Michael Verseckes said MassDOT is looking into the matter but said it is believed that with the old bridge, boats may have been able to proceed through the channel before the bridge was fully open, because since it was a drawbridge, vertical clearance was not an issue."

 

[Mongo]

How much truth is there behind this article?
http://www.chelsearecord.com/2015/02/12/lamattina-takes-on-chelsea-st-bridge-issues/

Especially:
"MassDOT spokesman Michael Michael Verseckes said MassDOT is looking into the matter but said it is believed that with the old bridge, boats may have been able to proceed through the channel before the bridge was fully open, because since it was a drawbridge, vertical clearance was not an issue."

There is a lot of BS in that article especially this line

Verseckes added that maritime law dictates that a bridge must be opened upon request.

Bridges don't have to open immediately on request. For railroad bridges the railroad schedule takes priority, and if you are on a boat you are going to be waiting. There are plenty of vehicle bridges in busy areas that rely on a set schedule, like the mystic river bridge in mystic CT, where the bridge opens 20 minutes before the hour for however long it takes boats to transit, and if you miss the opening time you are shit out of luck for an hour.

Here is some interesting reading if you want to hear more about this.

https://www.federalregister.gov/art...wbridge-operation-regulations-mystic-river-ct

Basically the coast guard can meet with local officials and they can change how the bridge operates to help relieve traffic.

EDIT: and as to the line you picked out, yes that's usually the case. If there is clear sky you know you can clear it before the bridge finishes opening. But if the bridge is still there, like a lift bridge, it's hard to know what your actual clearance is.

 

[datadyne007]

I have a friend who knew someone on the design team for the Chelsea St. Bridge. The bridge itself has a crucial design flaw. The mechanical headhouses as designed were actually too small for the intended lift wheel size (discovered way too late), so the wheel was reduced in size by half and thus the bridge takes 2x longer to go up and down compared to the intended design. The bridge was not supposed to be as slow as it is.

 

[Jahvon09]

I have a friend who knew someone on the design team for the Chelsea St. Bridge. The bridge itself has a crucial design flaw. The mechanical headhouses as designed were actually too small for the intended lift wheel size (discovered way too late), so the wheel was reduced in size by half and thus the bridge takes 2x longer to go up and down compared to the intended design. The bridge was not supposed to be as slow as it is.

Yeah, it is so RIDICULOUSLY friggen slow! I THOUGHT that something was wrong with that bridge. They were much better off keeping the old one there. At least it went up and came back down faster.

I'm just so frustrated and so sick to death of the atrocious slowness of this bridge going up and coming back down! Seems like it's 5x slower. And the traffic in that area seems backed up for miles! Take at least 20 minutes for it all to equalize.

I don't wait for it to go up and come back down. I turn around and go on 1A north to get to Chelsea. It is definitely a design flaw. One that might come back to kick them in the butt!

 

[palindrome]

Yeah, it is so RIDICULOUSLY friggen slow! I THOUGHT that something was wrong with that bridge. They were much better off keeping the old one there. At least it went up and came back down faster.

I'm just so frustrated and so sick to death of the atrocious slowness of this bridge going up and coming back down! Seems like it's 5x slower. And the traffic in that area seems backed up for miles! Take at least 20 minutes for it all to equalize.

I don't wait for it to go up and come back down. I turn around and go on 1A north to get to Chelsea. It is definitely a design flaw. One that might come back to kick them in the butt!

I used to work in the area doing a job that required going over that bridge up to 10 times a day. Believe me....no one hates it more than me.

 

[Jahvon09]

I used to work in the area doing a job that required going over that bridge up to 10 times a day. Believe me....no one hates it more than me.

How in the Sam Hill were they allowed to get away with that? Sounds to me like it was a rush job! Get it done fast no matter come what may!

 

[CSTH]

I have a friend who knew someone on the design team for the Chelsea St. Bridge. The bridge itself has a crucial design flaw. The mechanical headhouses as designed were actually too small for the intended lift wheel size (discovered way too late), so the wheel was reduced in size by half and thus the bridge takes 2x longer to go up and down compared to the intended design. The bridge was not supposed to be as slow as it is.

This is a big deal if its true. Anyone have any leads on some solid sourcing for this?

 

[datadyne007]

This is a big deal if its true. Anyone have any leads on some solid sourcing for this?

Radio silence from MassDOT. I was surprised (and not) when I heard this. All I have is that third-hand account though, so you have to take it for what it's worth. I've never seen anything about this alleged issue published. Having worked on a different more-recent MassDOT bridge project, I can say that everything was hyper-coordinated in Revit & Navisworks. That might have been a result of what happened with the Chelsea St bridge.

Notice in that article above they dodge the slow bridge comment by trying to blame marine policies rather than the pathetically slow bridge itself. They also seem to raise it all the way up most of the time regardless of boat size, so even for small boats, the bridge goes all the way up. On a few occasions, I have seen them bring it halfway, so it is possible. Possibly trying to work out the kinks and figure out best SOPs.

 

[cybah]

Well time for an update... Construction is moving along on the new busway and the new Washington Ave bridge.

I went out today (6/20/15) to take some more photos of the construction since I know there's been some progress since last time (4/25/15). (I check weekly)

Far more brush has been removed along the busway and in one section near the Bellingham Street bridge (as you'll see below) is all graded now.

The Washington Ave bridge is coming along. Most of the old bridge, minus a small pedestrian walkway is gone, and the retaining wall work has started.

For this photo essay, I decided to save time and skip Airport and Mystic Mall stations since virtually no work is being done at these two places yet. So this photo essay primary focuses on Eastern Ave to the CR station section of the busway.

If you'd like to see the previous photo essay from 4/25/15 you can click here.

And if you'd like to see the NEW photos, you can click here.

Now for the highlights:

Here's looking north at from Cottage Street. As you can see the new busway has been started to be graded and drainage work has been done.

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Here's looking south from the Bellingham Street bridge at the newly graded section. I'm not quiet sure what the piles are for and/or if they will be removed. However, remember the shared use path will run on that side and connect to the opposite of the bridge so they may have something to do with that. I do know that the plastic is to prevent run off onto the newly graded section.

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Here's looking north from the Bellingham Street bridge at the newly graded busway.

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Notice how deep it is here. Makes me wonder how high and/or if a retaining wall will be built.

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Looking north from Willow Street at the edge of the new construction. Yes the fence is new. It runs almost all the way to the Broadway bridge.

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Looking north, at the busway from the end of Library Street. (toward Box District Station).

All the brush has been removed and abutting fence at the MWRA building has been moved back.

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Looking north, where the future Box District Station will be.

All the brush has been removed and the fence pushed back.

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Standing on the future Shared Use, looking down at Box District Station and the merge with the Newburyport/Rockport Commuter Rail Line (to the left).

This whole area will have a path and a retaining wall built with all new plants and shrubs.

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Looking down from the Broadway Bridge. CR to the left and the new busway will be to the right. A new retaining wall will be built along the right side of the new busway to hold the new shared use path.

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Looking north at the new busway (left) and CR tracks (right). Notice all the old railroad ties that have been removed!

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Construction of the Washington Ave bridge. New beam on the left (holding up telecom cable!) and what's left of the old bridge (as a pedestrian path) on the right.

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Old stone retaining wall of the old bridge.

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The Fay Sq side of the old bridge. Notice the telecom cable and how close the construction is to 63 Washington Ave's foundation!

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Looking down (north) at the current commuter rail station. Notice the old tracks have been removed and jersey barriers have been installed and has become a work area for the bridge. And if you look closely you'll see a now paved island. This is the new temporary outbound CR platform!

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Street level view of the old CR platform. Notice how the old track and pavement is gone.

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CR station platform view of the Washington Ave Bridge.

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That's it. It wasn't worth walking all the way to Market Basket, as I was just there yesterday there's zero work to being done! I'm sure as time goes on (probably late fall) some work will start over there.

Next Update: Late August!

 

[FK4]

See, it's exactly marketing of stuff like this that the T has always done a shitty job of. This is a great project, and an important one, yet there is little to no media attention (there've been a few Globe articles, to be fair). Some of that reflects the bias against projects in nontrendy, poor areas, but the T ought to start pumping out an ad campaign - put up posters in every T station trumpeting the GLX, trumpeting this. Make people aware of what's happening, portray these as shiny new lines, wave of the future etc etc. It really wouldnt cost much at all - Im sure they could do it in non-official ad spots in stations without having to compromise other paid ads.

 

[Scalziand]

Wow, fantastic progress on the SLX.