South Station Tower | South Station Air Rights | Downtown

Re: South Station Tower

Nobody really knows the answer to that question at this time. ...Hopefully soon, if I had to guess I would say within 10-15 years, but who really knows. Theres always that small chance that they say screw you and stay put, but Boston will eventually work out a deal to get them to relocate for the betterment of the area/city.

Better hurry up and figure that out NOW.

Every 6 months, there's less and less land.
 
Re: South Station Tower

Nobody really knows the answer to that question at this time. It definitely will at some point, when that is we can only speculate. There is no plan in place at the moment for them to move, but its universally accepted that at some point they will. Hopefully soon, if I had to guess I would say within 10-15 years, but who really knows. Theres always that small chance that they say screw you and stay put, but Boston will eventually work out a deal to get them to relocate for the betterment of the area/city.

It's Congress, pure and simple. Thanks to the same set of Postal laws that has them voting on dozens of fluff Post Office renaming bills every year, it also takes a Congressional act to make it nice and legal for this sorting facility to move a half-mile down the street. Unlike a $0 cost fluff renaming, there is a non-$0 cost authorization required here...so forget about that ever leaving committee for a floor vote in this all-time historic unproductive session. And probably the 2017-19 term, too.

USPS has to keep saying it doesn't have the money and has its hands tied, because it's true. City/state/BRA could serve up a relocation deal on a silver platter at $0 federal cost, but it still wouldn't ever be brought up for a floor vote. Some ideological nihilist's objections to anyone anywhere spending money for any Postal Service-recipient purpose whatsoever will block it from being released from committee. And it's going to be that way for as long as the House leadership is unable to control the restive factions inside its own majority caucus.


Only thing the locals can do in the meantime is keep working at it in the background and get their agreement-in-principle as informally set as possible. At least if the mechanics of the move are 100% settled there's a good chance of sneaking it into the weeds at the noncontroversial arse end of some bloated omnibus bill where no one will waste any political capital picking at it. So local interests are still that much in the driver's seat. There just can't be an assumption that USPS is in any position to lead from behind on greasing their own skids. For whatever reason it took until the first failure at a relocation agreement for the local institutions to realize this.
 
Re: South Station Tower

^^omg. Never should have been put there in the first place.

I hope the same doesn't go down at the JFK Fed bldg.
 
Re: South Station Tower

^^omg. Never should have been put there in the first place.

I hope the same doesn't go down at the JFK Fed bldg.

USPS always had a presence at South Station. Mail in this country used to travel primarily by train until the private RR's went bankrupt. UPS didn't start offering parcel service to all 48 mainland states until 1975; FedEx didn't exist at all until 1981. So SS handled sizeable volumes of mail right up until the big '89 renovation. The old station used to have a full-service mail siding on the far Dot Ave. side right up until the station got chopped in half in the late-60's to build the USPS facility. Amtrak did USPS package shipping with materials handling boxcars tacked onto the back of a couple daily Northeast Regional off-peaks all the way until Fall 2004. That was only 11-1/2 years ago, 3 years after the Acela's debut and electrification, and after SSX and the sorting facility relocation had already been formally proposed. They'd unload the packages on carts after the platforms cleared of exiting passengers and wheel them right next door.

amt1400.jpg

^^ Mail cars under the wires @ SS, early-'00s.

You're talking extremely recent history where the Post Office ceased to have any reason for existing next door. And it took until the opening of Southie Haul Road to serve up viable relocation sites that wouldn't mess up traffic heading out to 93 time of day when the delivery trucks dispatched en masse for their daily runs.
 
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Re: South Station Tower

^^ dumb me. i forgot all about their use of Amtrak. :banghead:
 
Re: South Station Tower

Badly needs an iconic spire......as does, ironically, the office building planned for North Station.

Would be a nice symetry if the towers at both North and South Stations had matching and strikingly visible spires with beacon lights. There might even be some creative interplay between the two transportation centers in that respect.

Good idea! Two giant Tesla coils, one at each end of the Greenway.
 
Re: South Station Tower

When height is governed by hard FAA caps (such at the South Station Tower) spires become completely infeasible.

Jumbo -- there really is nothing hard about the "FAA caps"

Look at the tops of most of the downtown towers, most sprout a variety of antennae, masts for TV cameras for traffic reports, weather instruments, etc. *1, *2

In the Back Bay things even get taller above the roof -- look at the collection of antennae on top of 200 Clarendon*3 and of course the penultimate example the Pru with its mighty 150' antenna mast*4

None of these are included in the official FAA height, as I believe that it only refers to permanent parts of the building superstructure, such as an elevator machinery penthouse or a cooling tower?

Spires if they were considered in the same category wouldn't effect the official height as long as they weren't a permanent part of the building

And then there are my two "inverted spires" :
1) inflatable
2) holographic projection

So I think the discussion can continue

Refs -- all data from the FCC [not FAA]Antenna Structure Registration given in meters [either above the ground or above mean sea level [msl] as indicated
converted to feet in {xxxx}
Note that "Overall Height Above Ground w/o Appurtenances" == the FAA height above the sidewalk
http://wireless2.fcc.gov/UlsApp/AsrSearch/asrRegistration.jsp?regKey=110005
  • 1 -- One financial Center
    Elevation of Site Above Mean Sea Level 4.9 {16.1 ft}
    Overall Height Above Ground (AGL) 208.1 {682.7 ft}
    Overall Height Above Mean Sea Level 213.0 {698.8 ft}
    Overall Height Above Ground w/o Appurtenances 182.5 {598.8 ft}
  • 2 -- One Beacon St.
    Elevation of Site Above Mean Sea Level 18.3 {60.0 ft}
    Overall Height Above Ground (AGL) 202.7 {665.0 ft}
    Overall Height Above Mean Sea Level 221.0 {725.1 ft}
    Overall Height Above Ground w/o Appurtenances 150.9 { 495.1 ft}
  • 3 -- 200 Clarendon formerly the John Hancock Tower has several antennae the tallest is:
    Elevation of Site Above Mean Sea Level 5.5 {18.0 ft}
    Overall Height Above Ground (AGL)259.7 {852.0 ft}
    Overall Height Above Mean Sea Level 265.2 {870.1 ft}
    Overall Height Above Ground w/o Appurtenances 239.9 {787.1 ft}
    translates into 852.0 ft above sidewalk
  • 4 -- Pru by itself to the roof top not counting anything on top of the roof -- 749' or 750' or [seems to be some uncertainty]. Pru has two antenna masts -- the taller antenna mast as per FCC data
    Elevation of Site Above Mean Sea Level 3.6 {11.8 ft}
    Overall Height Above Ground (AGL) 276.4 {906.8 ft}
    Overall Height Above Mean Sea Level 280.0 {918.6 ft}
    Overall Height Above Ground w/o Appurtenances 228.4 {749.3 ft}
    that is 918.6 ft above msl -- or a bit less from the sidewalk {906.8 ft} or --

    most significantly 157.5 ft above the FAA height
 
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Re: South Station Tower

Better hurry up and figure that out NOW.

Every 6 months, there's less and less land.

Odurandia -- at the rate the need for the USPS facility is shrinking -- the whole relocated USPS facility might just fit into one corner of the existing USPS parking lot off A street
 
Re: South Station Tower

It's Congress, pure and simple. Thanks to the same set of Postal laws that has them voting on dozens of fluff Post Office renaming bills every year, it also takes a Congressional act to make it nice and legal for this sorting facility to move a half-mile down the street. Unlike a $0 cost fluff renaming, there is a non-$0 cost authorization required here...so forget about that ever leaving committee for a floor vote in this all-time historic unproductive session. And probably the 2017-19 term, too.

USPS has to keep saying it doesn't have the money and has its hands tied, because it's true. City/state/BRA could serve up a relocation deal on a silver platter at $0 federal cost, but it still wouldn't ever be brought up for a floor vote. Some ideological nihilist's objections to anyone anywhere spending money for any Postal Service-recipient purpose whatsoever will block it from being released from committee. And it's going to be that way for as long as the House leadership is unable to control the restive factions inside its own majority caucus.

F-Line that is so so lacking in reality and all filtered through your Ideology

The huge 200 Smith Street USPS facility on Rt-128 in Waltham [37 acres, 350,000 sq ft.] is being converted into commercial space with apparently a small remnant for the local Waltham and Lexington USPS uses
see the BBJ story *1

Its all about money -- if the developer of the Dot Ave complex and the Commonwealth as the developer of the expanded South Station offer the USPS the right financial incentive i.e. $ >>0 -- the deal can be done


*1
BBJ last November
http://www.bizjournals.com/boston/print-edition/2015/11/13/no-tenants-no-problem.html
Focus on suburban real estate: No tenants? No problem
Andrew Maher and his team at Anchor Line Partners roll the dice in Waltham
Nov 13, 2015, 6:00am EST Updated Nov 13, 2015, 8:49am EST
Catherine Carlock
Real Estate Editor
Boston Business Journal

From the outside, 200 Smith St. in Waltham has the look of a fortress with impenetrable gray metal walls spanning the length of a parking lot, few visible windows and one lone entrance....Inside, concrete floors stretch the length of multiple football fields, all on one floorplate…..

Anchor Line won a competitive bid in June to acquire the 250,000-square-foot warehouse and accompanying three-story, 100,000-square-foot office space, Maher said. The firm has ambitious plans to create upward of 400,000 square feet of flexible office and lab space.
And they’re doing it all on spec.

The development comes at a time when escalating rents and tight inventory is guiding many business leaders to consider the suburbs, after more than a decade of high-profile companies abandoning the Interstate 95 and 495 belts in favor of the burgeoning urban centers of Boston and Cambridge…..

But spec development in Waltham, a suburb 15 miles west of Boston’s central business district, is more of a gamble. But it’s one Maher says he is sure will pay off…..
“Everyone, when they come over that threshold, there’s a big, ‘Oh, my God’ moment,” Maher said on a recent tour of the former USPS facility. “I just have to get them through the door.”….

At its peak in the mid 1990s, the USPS distribution center employed 1,100 across three shifts, sorting 13 million pieces of mail daily. But after the recent recession and an imploding business model, that dwindled to 3 million pieces of mail each day. The USPS decommissioned the property this decade, shifting the sorting to facilities along the Fort Point Channel in South Boston and Billerica.

The USPS then put the Waltham facility out to bid, in a deal lead by brokerage CBRE.
“It was really stiff competition to get it,” Maher said. But he and Anchor Line had arranged a $39.5 million acquisition, part of an deal that included $88 million in acquisition and construction financing from New York-based investment management firm AllianceBernstein…..

‘Urbanizing this location’
The USPS moved out of 200 Smith St. this summer, taking thousands of pounds of machinery valued at about $10 million with them, and leaving Maher, Amendolare and Chaisson with an empty, expansive warehouse….

“You can definitely see them understanding how it’s going to function when it’s done,” Maher said. “Some of them look at it as a way of creating a culture they don’t already have. … That opportunity to create that culture is something we’re really trying to sell, and they get it.”
The pitch also is tailored to cost-conscious CFOs; Anchor Line is marketing the property in the low $40s per square foot for office rent, a substantial discount from the $60-to-$70 asking rents for Class-A space in Boston and Cambridge.

Beyond lease rates, Maher and Anchor Line hope to lure tenants with amenities including walking trails on the 36-acre campus, a cafeteria and fitness center, gaming systems, and a bike room and repair shop. The facility will also have a shuttle service to the Alewife MBTA Red Line station — something Maher said is second only to the cafeteria in terms of importance of drawing in tenants with young employee bases.
“It’s urbanizing this location,” he said….

Anchor Line has retained CBT Architects — a Boston-based firm with a portfolio chock full of high-profile urban Boston projects — for the facility’s design. Paul Finger Associates of Waltham is leading the landscape design…

Anchor Line hopes to have the facility — which it has named Post @ 200 Smith — ready for tenants in mid-2017…..
“We’re going to be able to deliver a product to this market that no one has seen on the Northeast Coast,” she said.

Catherine Carlock covers Greater Boston's commercial real estate industry.
 
Re: South Station Tower

[IMG]https://i.warosu.org/data/tg/img/0270/20/1378343292966.jpg[/IMG] said:
F-Line that is so so lacking in reality and all filtered through your Ideology

What, no Zombie Dukakis jokes to go with that? You spent 40 whole seconds CTRL+INS'ing those last 3 posts after mashing a random assemblage of keys and pressing the Google "I'm Feeling Lucky" button. Don't you want to reward yourself for a hard day at the office, Professor?
 
Re: South Station Tower

What, no Zombie Dukakis jokes to go with that? You spent 40 whole seconds CTRL+INS'ing those last 3 posts after mashing a random assemblage of keys and pressing the Google "I'm Feeling Lucky" button. Don't you want to reward yourself for a hard day at the office, Professor?

F-Line -- I posted a while back - -Detente Comrade -- I'm avaoiding all of the stuff focused on politicians in order to concentrate on Policy

I would hope that you might try it as well -- not everything that happens on Beacon Hill or Captitol Hill that you might not agree with -- is a conspiracty designed to enslave the working man to the benefit of the Ubsers
 
Re: South Station Tower

Its all about money -- if the developer of the Dot Ave complex and the Commonwealth as the developer of the expanded South Station offer the USPS the right financial incentive i.e. $ >>0 -- the deal can be done

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

So if it hasn't been done, it must be because the right incentive has not yet been offered? And we'll know the right incentive when it materializes, because it will lead to the project getting done?

So tidy....nicely done.
 
Re: South Station Tower

To state the obvious - too many agencies with too slow or no process. The bankrupt USPS is a dead carcass with no reason to leave. The parcels between Harrison and Albany Streets in Dorchester seem a good location. Better hurry. With these sites being sold for housing, by the time anything happens, there may be few options. The DOT parcel/s on Kneeland Street are available for a swap. But we're trying to move the USPS - not put them next door. And those parcels will also be gone soon.

Is eviction a possible option?
 
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Re: South Station Tower

To state the obvious - too many agencies with too slow or no process. The bankrupt USPS is a dead carcass with no reason to leave. The parcels between Harrison and Albany Streets in Dorchester seem a good location. Better hurry. With these sites being sold for housing, by the time anything happens, there may be few options. The DOT parcel/s on Kneeland Street are available for a swap. But we're trying to move the USPS - not put them next door. And those parcels will also be gone soon.

Is eviction a possible option?

The proposed parcel over in South Boston is a better location than these. They want to be closer to the airport, because that is how long distance mail moves today.

The other parcels you are talking about have significant development potential. Detailed RFP process right now with the State DOT about Parcels 25 and 26 on Kneeland. Trust me, they are not going to pick the USPS.
 
Re: South Station Tower

The proposed parcel over in South Boston is a better location than these. They want to be closer to the airport, because that is how long distance mail moves today.

The other parcels you are talking about have significant development potential. Detailed RFP process right now with the State DOT about Parcels 25 and 26 on Kneeland. Trust me, they are not going to pick the USPS.

And not just the Ted being an ideal mail route, but also Southie Haul Road. USPS would save lots of money with the vastly superior truck access in the Seaport vs. the constipated movements they have backing out of the garage bays onto Dot Ave. today.

If it weren't for that handshake required with the paralyzed federal gov't and the local institutions moving with their typical sloth, that's a deal the sorting facility would make in a heartbeat. They aren't the ones being naturally reluctant. It's the hands that tie USPS approvals, and the hands the locals are tying themselves in knots that are making the process drag and drag.
 

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