South Station Tower | South Station Air Rights | Downtown

Re: South Station Tower

Notables coming out against track expansion at South Station. Guess if you live long enough you get to see everything. I've got nothing against through traffic to North Station. But why does Dukakis believe the two are mutually exclusive?

https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2...ns/WY26xqBSrPmjwXF0UmrR0J/story.html#comments

Other than Dukakis (and seriously - what the hell, Dukakis?!) this has nothing to do with SSX and is just Widett people agitating to put the layover yard at either of the other two sites. Which is why it's going to end up in Allston, as MassDOT has already included in their designs for the site. Of course, that creates another dead zone in an urban neighborhood to match the one that already exists in the South Bay, but sure.
 
Re: South Station Tower

How would a NSRL even work? The thought of tunnel big enough for a commuter train underground in Boston just doesn't seem possible, especially with 93 tunnels orange, red, green, blue lines all converging there. If anything it would be big enough for 1 train to travel though...anyone know anything about this design wise?
 
Re: South Station Tower

When the I-93 tunnels were built they included a space underneath them for a commuter rail tunnel. I believe there is enough space for up to four tracks and the stations as well. It is all just plain fill underneath the tunnels and would be relatively simple tunneling compared to pretty much any other suggested tunneling project in the region.
 
Re: South Station Tower

How would a NSRL even work? The thought of tunnel big enough for a commuter train underground in Boston just doesn't seem possible, especially with 93 tunnels orange, red, green, blue lines all converging there. If anything it would be big enough for 1 train to travel though...anyone know anything about this design wise?

In addition to the under-93 fill space there is a moldy old DEIR explaining the technical mechanics of all this at an official level. Short answer: yes, it's completely engineering-feasible and it works. Debates about project makeup are strictly scope- and features- related. Alignments, and required steel + concrete for the baseline build are long-settled debates. If it's built at all, it'll look and act like what they say it is.


But again...it has NOTHING to do with the surface terminal expansion, which either gets done or service levels get choked off in near enough time that the AB.org forums will probably still be around for us to bitch about what a present-day travesty that has become. One poorly-written Globe article, Dukakis grinding an axe, and Mike Flaherty acting like ass in public does not re-frame the context. NSRL and SSX have jack fricking squat to do with each other. Always did, always will.
 
Re: South Station Tower

Other than Dukakis (and seriously - what the hell, Dukakis?!) this has nothing to do with SSX and is just Widett people agitating to put the layover yard at either of the other two sites. Which is why it's going to end up in Allston, as MassDOT has already included in their designs for the site. Of course, that creates another dead zone in an urban neighborhood to match the one that already exists in the South Bay, but sure.

What are the arguments for/against Readville? It seems there is already a yard there? Or formerly was a yard there?
 
Re: South Station Tower

What are the arguments for/against Readville? It seems there is already a yard there? Or formerly was a yard there?

Unlike the other two sites, Readville has residential neighbors. Layover yards also get better the closer they are to South Station, since the point is to store trains near where they're needed for the evening commute. Readville would require more backtracking.
 
Re: South Station Tower

What are the arguments for/against Readville? It seems there is already a yard there? Or formerly was a yard there?

Menino's ghost and long shadow over Hyde Park. He spent his entire career in city politics trying to kick the train yards out or otherwise cripple them from operating at full capacity. Hence, the lasting DCR truck ban that chased the Stop & Shop warehouse out of town and prevents any truly useful freight transloading at the CSX yard taking traffic off 93 and thoroughfares in Dorchester and Roxbury.

That entrenchment doesn't just vanish a year after his death. The BRA is pretty much institutionally auto-programmed to be hostile to transportation use at those Readville sites.


FWIW...Yard 2, the current commuter rail storage facility, can more than double in size by displacing the recycling center that leases the Neponset-facing half of the T's parcel. Yard 5, the one across the street that recently got a full environmental cleanup, has almost as much acreage as northside Boston Engine Terminal even with Industrial Dr. sub-dividing the property. That yard was the home of the southside's BET-equivalent passenger shops from the NYNH&H days to the mid-70's. It has big advantages with that turning loop configurable for equal access to the Franklin, Fairmount, and NEC tracks (instead of just Fairmount via a reverse move like Yard 2). And one big disadvantage in residential opposition from Dedham (though that can be mitigated by putting the quieter enclosed shop and work equipment storage there behind a noise fence, while keeping the idling revenue trains elsewhere). But Yard 5's the one the BRA keeps pushing born-loser mixed-use narnia proposals and "tech lofts" on.

They've got the permanent Beacon Park easement Equilibria references to play on.

I won't even rehash the full stupidity at Widett that Flaherty is flame-baiting. We covered the Food Market's inefficient land use there and superior relocation opportunities by the Marine Terminal seafood warehouses up-and-down the B24 thread. The Widett house of cards arguably failed because nobody would phone up MassDOT about a ground-level storage easement underwriting the decking costs of what gets built above, instead shoving all the risk on mythical "Master Developer" who never materialized.


This is a totally, absolutely manufactured crisis. To the degree it even is a crisis. Four sites offer up enough space for a 100-year fix of train capacity and that full-service southside heavy maintenance facility building they need. They're unable to do anything with Readville or Widett because of decades of ratfuckery from City Hall, and who knows if Beacon Park's going to get nitpicked to death by the same walnut-brained fiefdoms when the Pike realignment is done.
 
Re: South Station Tower

A bit of a derailment. I just came across another new building on top of a transit hub, of all places, in Milwaukee. I would almost prefer this over the blandness of SST, even if it is a bit Miami-ish looking.

This project sits on top of a new light rail system and connects to the waterfront park as well as the Art museum with the Calatrava-designed building.

couture_0000.jpg
 
Re: South Station Tower

When the I-93 tunnels were built they included a space underneath them for a commuter rail tunnel. I believe there is enough space for up to four tracks and the stations as well. It is all just plain fill underneath the tunnels and would be relatively simple tunneling compared to pretty much any other suggested tunneling project in the region.

In addition to the under-93 fill space there is a moldy old DEIR explaining the technical mechanics of all this at an official level. Short answer: yes, it's completely engineering-feasible and it works. Debates about project makeup are strictly scope- and features- related. Alignments, and required steel + concrete for the baseline build are long-settled debates. If it's built at all, it'll look and act like what they say it is.

Holy Shit!
 
Re: South Station Tower

617 and Odu - you guys should really check out the NSRL thread - this has all been covered there in detail over the last several years, and it even includes some diagrams, maps etc. from the engineering documents...
 
Re: South Station Tower

Both are required. Both need to happen as long as steel wheel on steel rail is the most efficient way of moving large numbers people around.
The Northern New England Passenger Rail Initiative indicates 8 round trips on the inland route per day and 1 round trip to Montreal. Those are all surface, non NSRL trains. Acela II will likely be ready before these plans. That needs space. South Coast Rail/Taunton Service may be an element of NSRL or maybe not. Indigo of the Fairmount Line. Possible Manchester/Nashua New Hampshire service. These are all Additional needs that will require more capacity than will exist with either one of these projects alone.
 
Re: South Station Tower

Shouldn't this discussion be over here in the South Station Expansion thread? Station expansion and the tower are completely different projects. And there's a 543-post North-South Rail Link thread for those that are interested, as well.
 
Re: South Station Tower

Yes. still, such a wild wacky macro-scale political drama that will to play so close to what will ultimately be Boston's 6th or 7th tallest.

617 and Odu - you guys should really check out the
NSRL thread - this has all been covered there in detail over the last several years, and it even includes some diagrams, maps etc. from the engineering documents...

Thanks! Yep, i'm more confused than evaar about what actually lies beneath or adjacent to i-93. If there truly is infrastructure in place that leads to a shorter completion time and cost savings - this is big news to me. With this wiki crap, not telling the story, i guess i've got plenty of reading to do.

Wiki said:
The original Big Dig plan also included the North-South Rail Link, which would have connected North and South Stations (the major passenger train stations in Boston), but this aspect of the project was ultimately dropped by the state transportation administration early in the Dukakis administration. Negotiations with the federal government had led to an agreement to widen some of the lanes in the new harbor tunnel, and accommodating these would require the tunnel to be deeper and mechanically-vented; this left no room for the rail lines, and having diesel trains (then in use) passing through the tunnel would have substantially increased the cost of the ventilation system.[18]
 
Re: South Station Tower

Heh, that Milwaukee example reminds me of Berlin's Bahntower rising out of the corner of the Sony Center, but without the good architecture.
 
Re: South Station Tower

Heh, that Milwaukee example reminds me of Berlin's Bahntower rising out of the corner of the Sony Center, but without the good architecture.

It mightn't be an example of stellar architecture, but the Milwaukee tower is mostly inoffensive. It reminds of a sterile, stretched version of NYC's Lipstick Building!
 
Re: South Station Tower

Thanks! Yep, i'm more confused than evaar about what actually lies beneath or adjacent to i-93. If there truly is infrastructure in place that leads to a shorter completion time and cost savings - this is big news to me. With this wiki crap, not telling the story, i guess i've got plenty of reading to do.

It's not a pre-existing cavern. What they did for the Big Dig was drive the slurry walls that frame the 93N tunnel ultra-ultra deep, as that was the only way to build it in soft soil. And then they re-packed it underneath with clean loose fill that has no utilities and no rocks or other crap in it. The serendipitous upside of that is that the side pilings and the floor of the highway happened to frame 3 sides of a lower-level box with just the right dimensions to run trains through. So between the insertion point at Rowes Wharf and the departing point at Causeway Street all they have to do is scoop out all that loose fill, install a floor at the very bottom, install a center divider wall to hold up the highway (since the load-bearing fill will be gone), and pour a second waterproofing layer on the side walls and ceiling (which the highway upstairs lacks, but the narrower train ROW can have so it doesn't leak like the rest of the CA/T). End result is two 2-track bores running directly underneath 93N for three-quarter mile, and no surface impact whatsoever to construct it.

North Station Under is pretty simple: slips off the highway alignment where 93 starts inclining up to the surface, runs runder the east service driveway of the Garden, and plunks a 6-8 track/3-4 platform underground station directly underneath the above-ground platforms. Then crosses under the river directly under the current tracks and portals-up about 500 ft. north of Gilmore Bridge. Fitchburg and Lowell/Eastern Route/Western Route portals will split on the last couple hundred feet of incline because earliest possible portal spot *just* miss the corner of Boston Engine Terminal where the lines are split by the maint facility's southern 'wedge'.

South Station is a lot more complicated. The 1-mile lead tunnels from the NEC/Worcester and Old Colony/Fairmount converge directly underneath the current surface track merge, and spend their whole time right under the surface tracks. NEC/Worcester portal is at Washington St, Old Colony/Fairmount have forked shallow-level portals on the last couple hundred feet of tunnel because--just like on the northside--the northern 'wedge' of Amtrak Southampton Yard *just* misses the earliest possible portal opportunity. At SS the main tunnel swings over to Dot Ave. at the Pike vent building and straddles Dot Ave. and the edge of the Channel (IMPORTANT!: This is how they structurally avoid any/all building impacts to the air rights tower pilings and the new row of Dot Ave. buildings coming post-USPS). Matching 6-8 tracks/3-4 platforms with North Station. Then it keeps going under Dot Ave., makes a little swing-out about 150 ft. into the Channel, and slices diagonally between the Seaport Blvd. and Northern Ave. bridges to insert underneath 93N.

Maybe there's a Central Station under Blue Line Aquarium if the portion under 93 is hollowed-out here into a wider cavern. But it would be very constrained and have fewer platforms, so it's dubious upside for the very high cost and a likely first cut from the project.

Electric-only. Steep grades, so best works on EMU's. Will be able to take conventional locomotive-hauled commuter rail push-pulls from any and all diesel lines on the system if the T buys the same kind of dual-mode locos that NJ Transit uses to get its diesel lines into Penn Station. The push-pulls would move a lot slower in the tunnel than the EMU's, so you'd want to up-front electrify enough of the system that most tunnel traffic is EMU, only the highest-demand diesel routes run thru, and the surface terminals handle the bulk of the traffic from low-frequency branchlines that don't merit electrification and heavy freight-traffic routes (Haverhill, for instance) that don't have the vertical clearances for tall freight cars under wires to feasibly electrify at all. One of several reasons why the surface terminals will always, always be fully utilized.




^That's the gist of it.

Now--before people start rolling eyes at the off-topic diversions--back to our regularly-scheduled tower and SSX discussion. NSRL truly is a whole entirely unrelated ball of wax decades apart that has nothing whatsoever to do with this tower or SSX.
 
Re: South Station Tower

i'm at a loss for words, sir. Thanks a lot.
 
Re: South Station Tower

^ Thats been discussed on here in depth multiple times. People aren't just blindly saying NSRL! with 0 plans in place for it to happen. The capacity was built in with the sinking of the central artery. Theres plenty or reading to get caught up on the subject right here on this forum. Its still going to take billions to get it done but you don't have to start from scratch with a deep boring machine.

Anyways all I was doing was elaborating on Dukakis himself saying "Former Governor Michael S. Dukakis said that the money and resources that would be spent expanding South Station would be better spent building the North-South Rail Link, an underground tunnel that would connect North and South Stations in Boston."

The Post office is in a stalemate right now and there is nothing that has come out since that points to them changing their minds, so its not like the SSX is just waiting on shovels. Its DOA as it stands right now, unfortunately. I feel like they will get something done because its a hot topic right now...but that does not mean anything. The post office feels like they are not going to be compensated fairly, and so they dug their heels in. Being the post office is a branch of the federal government, if they don't want to move they're not moving. Theres nothing the city can do about it until they change their minds. As it stands now nobody knows if that will be in the next 5 years....or next 25 years.

I want SSX done as much as the next person and I'm confident that they will come to an agreement at some point, as it is very much needed, but that doesn't mean I have to say expanding south station is more important than bridging the biggest gap in the entire system. When SSX is done, cool now it can operate at capacity, but its still just bandaging the same shitty system we already have. Connecting the stations opens up a whole other realm of possibilities while taking stress off of the other subway lines, freeing up capacity not only for the commuter rail but also for the surrounding lines. We need both, but as it stands now neither is happening.

Anyways this thread is way off topic at this point and all of this should honestly be moved into the NSRL thread.
 
Last edited:
Re: South Station Tower

I want SSX done as much as the next person and I'm confident that they will come to an agreement at some point, as it is very much needed, but that doesn't mean I have to say expanding south station is more important than bridging the biggest gap in the entire system. When SSX is done, cool now it can operate at capacity, but its still just bandaging the same shitty system we already have. Connecting the stations opens up a whole other realm of possibilities while taking stress off of the other subway lines, freeing up capacity not only for the commuter rail but also for the surrounding lines. We need both, but as it stands now neither is happening.

So...you're saying you are A-OK with not being able to get a seat on any rush hour train in 10 short years and for most of the rest of your working career because South Station is tapped out and all the resources to fix an immediate problem were raided? All because it's no fun to apply practical fixes to imminent problems when something else completely unrelated is shitty and OH LOOK SOMETHING SHINY!!! (in 30 years...maybe). :rolleyes:



Why is it so difficult to grasp that unrelated things are unrelated? Forget Duke's cringeworthy marble-mouthed interview and the Globe's awful reporting of. Explain to me how this discussion keeps reflexively grasping at the fallacy that not-in-the-least-bit related things always fit an arbitrary binary choice. "It's a Purple choo-choo, so Red Pill or Blue Pill." Seriously? Should we also cancel the extra cars for the Orange Line coming in 4 years because Silver Line Phase III might see its first bus in 2050? That makes exactly as much sense force-fit into a binary choice.
 
Re: South Station Tower

So...you're saying you are A-OK with not being able to get a seat on any rush hour train in 10 short years and for most of the rest of your working career because South Station is tapped out and all the resources to fix an immediate problem were raided? All because it's no fun to apply practical fixes to imminent problems when something else completely unrelated is shitty and OH LOOK SOMETHING SHINY!!! (in 30 years...maybe). :rolleyes:



Why is it so difficult to grasp that unrelated things are unrelated? Forget Duke's cringeworthy marble-mouthed interview and the Globe's awful reporting of. Explain to me how this discussion keeps reflexively grasping at the fallacy that not-in-the-least-bit related things always fit an arbitrary binary choice. "It's a Purple choo-choo, so Red Pill or Blue Pill." Seriously? Should we also cancel the extra cars for the Orange Line coming in 4 years because Silver Line Phase III might see its first bus in 2050? That makes exactly as much sense force-fit into a binary choice.

Your missing my point either on purpose to keep the holier than thou argument going or accidentally. Either way this thread is way off topic so Ill step back because its going nowhere and were both wasting our time and iv been trying to stay out of the bs on this forum but was sucked in yet again.

Im done but I expect someone will attempt to drag it out further. Either way Im stepping back.
 

Back
Top