Waterside Place 1A | 505 Congress Street | Seaport

[czsz]

... lets not forget that it took the pru decades to be what it is today. Thats the best i can hope for Waterside place....that it will somehow be improved upon 30 years down the road.

How sad is it that, after the Pru and Copley Place, no one can get it right the first time around?

Egad, this isn't even the inland Back Bay. It's the waterfront! Isn't there an attraction to having streets and stores and restaurants out in the open? They deliberately chose not to go this route on Fan Pier. Granted, this property isn't directly fronting the harbor, but it's barely a block away, and it's called Waterside Place! This building fails to respond either to the harbor or the city. It may as well be built in Burlington.

Also in that picture, what is the green building in the background??

The mysterious, narrow "Congress Street hotel" project.

 

[KentXie]

Are you saying it's anti-urban because it is a shopping mall? I don't think the Prudential mall or Providence Place are anti-urban.

Yes, that's exactly what Im saying. I cant speak speak for the Providence mall, but have you ever walked the lower stretch of Huntington or Ring Rd?

I strongly disagree. Have you've been to the mall near Time Sqaure (don't quite remember the name, has a ferris wheel in it). It is crowded than ever and doesn not make it Anti-Urban. However maybe it only works in NYC but I believe if you make the area dense enough, it would be actually more urban than anti-urban.

 

[czsz]

Have you've been to the mall near Time Sqaure (don't quite remember the name, has a ferris wheel in it).

That's not a mall; it's a Toys 'R' Us store.

There are malls in Manhattan - but they're relatively tiny. The Mall of Manhattan probably has a footprint about 1/4 the size of this, and the Time Warner Center is not only half the size of that, but interacts far more seamlessly with the city than this vast box ever could.

 

[KentXie]

Have you've been to the mall near Time Sqaure (don't quite remember the name, has a ferris wheel in it).

That's not a mall; it's a Toys 'R' Us store.

There are malls in Manhattan - but they're relatively tiny. The Mall of Manhattan probably has a footprint about 1/4 the size of this, and the Time Warner Center is not only half the size of that, but interacts far more seamlessly with the city than this vast box ever could.

My mistake but I do remember I went inside a mall that had multiple retail stores in there. Maybe it wasn't at that location but it was near it. Where is the Mall of Manhattan? Maybe that's the one I'm talking about.

 

[czsz]

Where is the Mall of Manhattan? Maybe that's the one I'm talking about.

34th & Broadway (Herald Square). Here's a photo to jog your memory:

 

[Equilibria]

This anti-urban stuff would all make sense if this was going in Government Center, but it isn't. This is going on the SBW, which has no culture at all to maintain. This isn't the largest building on the model, the BCEC and WTC could both be seen as larger, and the WTC is certainly more boring.

I think a good analogy for this district can be found in Crystal City, Arlington VA. It's a district of DC hotels anchored by the Metro, National Airport, and a large shopping mall even less architecturally imaginative than this one, and yet it thrives doing what it was built to do: housing businesspeople for conventions and meetings downtown.

Again, if this were Back Bay, the North End, or someplace with a history of urbanism and a tradition to uphold, where people actually live, I'd agree with you guys, but the grocery store's got to go somewhere, and I don't mean the silly specialty ones they're trying to get downtown (not Whole Foods, the other ones). The electronics retailer needs a home, and the people who live in the South End need these services. Despite its name and relative proximity, this is not on the waterfront, which will have its share of urban-style, outdoor development.

We need to stop trying to make SBW the North End and accept that it's going to be a district of yuppie hotels. That's where this sort of thing belongs. That said, the wood will be hideous.

 

[jass]

I like it.

Nobody goes to this part of Boston unless they have a job that requires them to go there. Its not a destination. Once in awhile, a family or couple will plan an evening at a seafood place, but thats it.

This is necessary to bring people to the area, and have the people who live there have acess to shops and services they need. Its big, yes, but so is everything else in the area.


I like the wood, it works with the ICA. is the ICA wood real?


Also, I see this spurring phase 3 of the silver line, so people can take a direct line to the area, and not a transfer onto the red line. (Green - red - silver instead of green - silver at Boylston).


I do think they should find a way to build the cinema though. Why not? Add a cinema floor on the roof.

 

[czsz]

I think a good analogy for this district can be found in Crystal City, Arlington VA. It's a district of DC hotels anchored by the Metro, National Airport, and a large shopping mall even less architecturally imaginative than this one, and yet it thrives doing what it was built to do: housing businesspeople for conventions and meetings downtown.

This might be acceptable if not for the fact that:
1. This district is right next to downtown, not across the harbor or a mile down a subway line. There was an opportunity to extend the street network and pattern of development in dense Fort Point from the beginning...it wasn't a greenfield removed from the city center like Crystal City.
2. Many firms have presented master plans for the district that did present it as a successful model of true urbanism, and this development continues to erode any attempt to hew to them
3. The land could be used a lot more efficiently
4. The mayor's own words were that SBW would be "the next Back Bay"...not a vintage-70s attempt at TOD like the developments in Arlington.

In other words, why do we keep accepting incremental steps toward the suburbanization of any initial vision of this neighborhood?

Add a cinema floor on the roof.

They need to do something, anything with the roof.

 

[vanshnookenraggen]

I think a good analogy for this district can be found in Crystal City, Arlington VA. It's a district of DC hotels anchored by the Metro, National Airport, and a large shopping mall even less architecturally imaginative than this one, and yet it thrives doing what it was built to do: housing businesspeople for conventions and meetings downtown.

You know I never thought of it that way but I think you are right. No matter what Menino said there really is no way that SBW would or could ever become like the Back Bay. The Back Bay was developed as a neighborhood for the wealthy while the SBW is being developed as a neighborhood for the traveling business person, and this is reflected in the architecture. Is it a shame that we can't have a nice walkable neighborhood? Of course but then this isn't the place to expect it. Why should we expect that an area being developed by people who made their living building malls and subdivisions would all of a sudden realize how to properly build a real city.

That and the area still needs time to mature. I know I've been hasty to deride and write off this neighborhood but that really isn't right. It's a good start but it still needs a long way to go.

As for Waterside, I think this is a perfect place for a mall and they defiantly need a large cinema out there.

czsz: The problem is not the developers alone. Menino shares much blame for not really having a vision for the area. Saying he wants a "Back Bay like" area is a nice thing to get you support but we all know that was just a pipe dream. We just don't build the way we used to, either in layout or materials or style. The other problem is that these developers are just building what is the way to build in this day and age.

 

[palindrome]

Wouldn't it be cool if they hoested a free movie on the roof outdoors in the summers.

 

[tocoto]

I think a good analogy for this district can be found in Crystal City, Arlington VA. It's a district of DC hotels anchored by the Metro, National Airport, and a large shopping mall even less architecturally imaginative than this one, and yet it thrives doing what it was built to do: housing businesspeople for conventions and meetings downtown.

Believe it or not Crystal city is far more hideous than the Seaport. The metro stations are so far apart you need to take a shuttle bus to the metro. There isn't a building anywhere near as interesting as Manualife or the convention center. You can't see the city or the ocean or even the Potomac from most hotels. The mall is underground with a low ceiling and is truly unpleasant to be in. It's far more lifeless than the seaport even now, believe it or not. The seaport may not have small blocks, but it does have the waterfront and convention center. As more people move there it is going to be an interesting, walkable destination just outside downtown even with the malls. Given our freezing winters they might actually help. Though not as great as the Backbay, the Seaport will be far better than Crystal City. I have traveled all over the world and absolutely dread going to Crystal city.

 

[Ron Newman]

Mall of Manhattan is the former Gimbel's store. It was never very successful. After losing several successive anchor stores (Abraham & Strauss, Stern's), it was largely de-malled and turned into office space.

 

[TC]

czsz,

You do realize that this parcel sits directly over I90, HOV Lanes, Exit Ramps, and the Silverline Tunnel.

1. This district is right next to downtown, not across the harbor or a mile down a subway line. There was an opportunity to extend the street network and pattern of development in dense Fort Point

The nature of this parcel makes it extremely cost prohibitive to create a street grid. There will be an extension of the street grid at both Fan Pier and Hynes (formerly McCourt parcel)

3. The land could be used a lot more efficiently

There is no land here. The mall use for this parcel is the only logical use.

The one mistake that is being made is adding the supermarket vs. the theater. I'm a believer that urban supermarkets should be mixed in with residential development. Currently Nobody lives here! This means that the people who use this supermarket will be driving to the area and adding to the traffic. At least with a theater there is a chance people would use public transportation. The fact that they are buying groceries all but guarantees that people will now drive vs. public transportation.

The supermarket should have gone on the Hynes parcel where it could have supported future residents of that development, fan pier, and existing residents living in the fort point channel area. All these people would be walking to the supermarket just like at the Back Bay Shaws.

Our mayor is most definitely one to hold grudges and I think this last minute decision was a shot back at Hynes for suggesting the private school. A supermarket is a great tenant for developers and now becomes a big hole to fill in Hynes 3 million sf. of development.

 

[Ron Newman]

I'm not against a supermarket, but there's already a Super Stop & Shop in Southie, on East Broadway near L Street.

 

[czsz]

No matter what Menino said there really is no way that SBW would or could ever become like the Back Bay. The Back Bay was developed as a neighborhood for the wealthy while the SBW is being developed as a neighborhood for the traveling business person, and this is reflected in the architecture.

Is it even what traveling businesspeople want? It's really sad wandering into the Seaport Hotel and hearing people come up to the concierge's desk asking "I thought this hotel was in Boston? How do I get to Boston?" They probably came expecting narrow streets and humane, traditional architecture. Travelers, business or otherwise, want to see "classic" Boston when on convention, not this vertical geography of nowhere. One of the reasons that New Orleans was the most popular convention city in the US prior to Hurricane Katrina was that conventioneers could walk from its soulless downtown to the French Quarter. Nearness to the Back Bay always added tremendously to the Hynes' appeal, before it was outclassed by larger such centers.

Is it a shame that we can't have a nice walkable neighborhood? Of course but then this isn't the place to expect it. Why should we expect that an area being developed by people who made their living building malls and subdivisions would all of a sudden realize how to properly build a real city.

The Toll Brothers made their living building McMansions in New Jersey, and are now erecting some of the most urbane condo towers in New York. This is no excuse.

The city and various organizations like Vivien Li's are more blameworthy; they were the ones who helped widen the streets to excess capacity and demand a Copley-sized park between every building currently standing across from the WTC.

That and the area still needs time to mature. I know I've been hasty to deride and write off this neighborhood but that really isn't right. It's a good start but it still needs a long way to go.

Why accept this faith-based planning? Shouldn't the area be redesigned before it's too late? True, we've all seen the Pru "mature" over the years, but why should we have to wait several decades for a neighborhood to go from bad to mediocre when we have a tabula rasa right now?

Menino shares much blame for not really having a vision for the area. Saying he wants a "Back Bay like" area is a nice thing to get you support but we all know that was just a pipe dream.

I agree that he shares the blame for not following through with higher standards and better oversight.

We just don't build the way we used to, either in layout or materials or style. The other problem is that these developers are just building what is the way to build in this day and age.

Given the right context and guidance, they can do better. In Amsterdam an area like this would have been criscrossed by new canals and divided into modern townhouses.

 

[KentXie]

SBW should have been the entertainment area of Boston. They should add are few clubs here, a stadium (for any sports move the Revolutions here or something) a few theaters, move the Time Square Project here, restaurants, hotel, arcade, mall, a few unique parks, maybe a rollercoaster in the mall or wave pool, ice/roller skate rink, mix with the ICA and the Children/Computer Museum and bam you have your 24 hr district in Boston.

 

[czsz]

You do realize that this parcel sits directly over I90, HOV Lanes, Exit Ramps, and the Silverline Tunnel.

They could have planned for this - reinforced the tunnel ceiling or buried the 90 a bit deeper. Instead, they created another air rights problem where one didn't exist before - thanks Big Dig!

Anyway, given the need for a large building on this site, wouldn't it have made more sense to have placed the gargantuan convention center on top, so that the land it now straddles (it's probably half the size of Back Bay) could be properly subdivided?

 

[czsz]

At the very least, couldn't they break up Waterside Place's facade and add street level entrances to shops like they did with the Eaton Center in Toronto?

^ May look slightly tacky, but it's way better than the long, long, mostly blank white facade that was there before.

 

[stellarfun]

You do realize that this parcel sits directly over I90, HOV Lanes, Exit Ramps, and the Silverline Tunnel.

They could have planned for this - reinforced the tunnel ceiling or buried the 90 a bit deeper. Instead, they created another air rights problem where one didn't exist before - thanks Big Dig!

Anyway, given the need for a large building on this site, wouldn't it have made more sense to have placed the gargantuan convention center on top, so that the land it now straddles (it's probably half the size of Back Bay) could be properly subdivided?

The convention center is way bigger than Waterside. As gargantuan as you may think it currently is, it was designed for expansion. I think it can grow perhaps a third more in size by building out at the south end to the original footprint.

 

[stellarfun]

Developers keep asserting that they want the retail for Waterside, or Seaport Square to be a destination shopping experience, with an area total of several million sq. ft. of retail to visit.

Mall of America -- which is a destination shopping experience like no other -- has a mouseover map of its various stores.

http://www.mallofamerica.com/adults_map_directory.aspx

Two of the four anchor stores at the Mall of America do not yet have a Boston presence: Nordstrom and Bloomingdales, so arguably, the presence of either or both of those could make the South Boston retail complex a destination. Two other stores oft-mentioned, JCPenny and Target, are not destination stores. If you mouseover all the other larger retail store locations in Mall of America, most already have a presence in downtown-Back Bay Boston.

If you look at the list of shops at Columbus Circle, these don't strike me as being destination retail.

But if you look at the list of shops for Rodeo Drive and Beverly Drive, those would seem to fit a definition of destination retail, albeit for 0.01 percent of the population.

http://map.mapnetwork.com/destination/lawestside/beverlyhills/