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Re: Trans National Place (Winthrop Square) Part 2

Fox, great argument... I agree wholeheartedly. To nm88, how does one building "alter our city"?
 
Re: Trans National Place (Winthrop Square) Part 2

First of all, my apologies for misspellling in previous posting.

Mr. Lrfox: All due respect, I don't really care for "groundbreaking" -- like genius and fabulous, the term is overused to the point of being meaningless. One person's groundbreaking is another's mistake. I would prefer the more modest (and realistic) terms useful, engaging and welcoming. TNP seems to be known of these as far as I can tell. (And be suspicious of anyone who claims a 1000 foot buiding is "green.")

I agree with KZ, many of the "groundbreaking" elements of TNP are sales incentives, and now that the creative mind behind this design has departed we are left to the vision of a developer, a salesman. Be assured, he will endlessly exclaim the virtues of height and the "groundbreaking" details of a garden on the roof, etc., etc. The gullible will be awed.

Suffolk83: How does it alter our city? Look at the pictures and the renderings. From where, from what prospective, are they taken? Mostly, the vantage point is a great distance away, many blocks in some cases, impossible aerial shots in others. Why? Because that's how you engage a building like this -- either from a great distance, or the penthouse. One is impersonal and the other is for the rarified few.

In some cities this works, New York most of all. Boston is not New York. We should not try to imitate others, especially our lessers (not NY, but many others).

Look at our skyline: Like it or not, it has a certain, what do we call it, symmetry? Maybe too low-rise for many of you, but it makes some (dare I say) visual sense. TNP blows that up. For those of you who argue that this rending of our slyline will be remedied when the next 1000 footer is built -- this is Boston, don't forget, it may be 20 years before we see another behemoth built.

Forgive me if I rant, but this city, in spite of its many shortcomings, is far more interesting and unique than many give it credit for. Building tall simply to build tall is a race to the bottom. We are better than that.
 
Re: Trans National Place (Winthrop Square) Part 2

Lrfox, I think that the fact that the main virtue you found in this building has nothing to do with its appearance speaks volumes, well, of its appearance.

nm88, you're in a minority of at least 2. Here's hoping that this doesn't get built.

justin
 
Re: Trans National Place (Winthrop Square) Part 2

Look at our skyline: Like it or not, it has a certain, what do we call it, symmetry? Maybe too low-rise for many of you, but it makes some (dare I say) visual sense. TNP blows that up. For those of you who argue that this rending of our slyline will be remedied when the next 1000 footer is built -- this is Boston, don't forget, it may be 20 years before we see another behemoth built.

I would not say that it blows up the skyline but rather it creates a landmark for downtown, much like the John Hancock and Pru do for the Back Bay. It will allow you to orient yourself if you are wandering and get lost in the North End.

Take the Citigroup Tower in Long Island City, Queens.
jackson_av_eb_at_47th_rd.jpg


It isn't a remarkable building, some might say it is ugly, but it is one of the greatest landmarks in Queens. Where ever you are in western Queens you can see it and it allows you to orient yourself to where you are and where the city is (or where the major transportation hub in western Queens is).

This is the same idea that churches and water towers used when they were the tallest structures in a village or town. If you look at the downtown skyline you just see a mass of flat topped buildings, each more boxy and bland than the next. But if you look towards Charlestown you can clearly see the Bunker Hill Monument and know that if you travel in that direction you will get to Charlestown. Once in Charlestown you don't need it but you will need other landmarks to point you in the right direction out of Charlestown. Likewise, if you are lost in the Fenway or South End, just look for the Pru to get you into the center of things.

Think about any strong neighborhood in Boston and you will ultimately think about it's landmark(s); Old North Church -> North End, Pru -> Back Bay, Citgo Sign -> Kenmore Sq, State House - > Beacon Hill, Federal Crt House -> South Boston Waterfront. A landmark should help define a neighborhood. Where is the center of the South End? Roxbury, Dorchester, Roslindale? These places exists in a much more ambiguous sense because they don't have as easily identifiable landmarks (visually, and still I'm sure this will stir up some argument, but you should at least get the gist of it).

Downtown once had a great landmark, the Customs Tower. Due to height restrictions and a federal government loop hole, the Customs Tower was the only skyscraper Boston had well into the middle of the 20th Century. "Progress" changed that and now it is only visible from the water, and even then it is obscured by the background noise of the other office towers downtown. This tower is needed to point people downtown, and this is just as much a factor as ego was in the decision to build a 1,000 ft tower in Boston. This is the only place a 1,000 ft tower should go because it is the only place something that high is needed.
 
Re: Trans National Place (Winthrop Square) Part 2

Look at our skyline: Like it or not, it has a certain, what do we call it, symmetry? Maybe too low-rise for many of you, but it makes some (dare I say) visual sense. TNP blows that up. For those of you who argue that this rending of our slyline will be remedied when the next 1000 footer is built -- this is Boston, don't forget, it may be 20 years before we see another behemoth built.
This I have to disagree greatly. Yes currently, downtown Boston is symmetrical and that a 1000 foot tower is a lot higher than the surrounding towers. However, this is not the first time it has happened in Boston. Remember the Prudential and John Hancock Tower? Both of these were built in pretty much close proximity to a residential neighborhood. Both of these towers are about 33% taller than the next tallest tower, the Custom House at the time. Sure these towers may have blow up the skyline but in the end, we can't imagine the city without it. This is the same exact case for TNP. Plus the TNP is only 21% taller than the John Hancock. Even the Custom House was the same. Thanks to its Federal Building status, the Custom House was more than two times taller than the next tallest building, the Ames Building. The Custom House was sticking like a middle finger right in the center of the city. The next building to even come near its height came a few decades later. The point is, if a city is always about being symmetrical, then the city will never build anything tall and this is especially the case in Boston.
 
Re: Trans National Place (Winthrop Square) Part 2

ba_transbay21-interior_ph3.jpg

Pelli and Hines won the Transbay competition.
See:
http://archrecord.construction.com/news/daily/archives/070921transbay.asp
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/09/21/BAO7S9J2H.DTL

Not that I favored the Hines/Pelli design, but that building will be more groundbreaking with regard to plazas and being environmentally green than anything Trans National could hope to be.

The Pelli Flash file on the project is a big file, download-wise.
http://www.pcparch.com/flash.cfm
 
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Re: Trans National Place (Winthrop Square) Part 2

The signifigance of this building is that its very tall. It pushes the envelope and creates a new standard for downtown. So, subsequently, we may get other (nicer) super-talls in other spots (City Hall Plaza, Friar Arch site, Gateway Center, etc.) in the future.
 
Re: Trans National Place (Winthrop Square) Part 2

This changes the appearance of the city. It does not change the city itself. Fanuiel Hall isn't going to blow up, the north end isn't going to fall in the harbor, Newbury St isn't going to open a Wal-Mart, and Sox fans won't desert their team. This sky is falling mentality is exactly the attitude that hinders progress. Who cares about symmetry?
The Sears Tower didn't make Chicago's skyline symmetrical, neither did the WTC in NY. The fact is that although the WTC was ugly by alot of people's standards, even in 1975, they were still extremely popular because of their height. People will love this for that reason alone.
I think this building is important. It sends a message that the city isn't stagnant. I believe the height barrier is a glass ceiling that needs to be broken, and the economic impact is huge both symbolically and in real terms.
 
Re: Trans National Place (Winthrop Square) Part 2

I have to disagree with this idea that somehow breaking this 1000 foot barrier means we're going to show the world that Boston is still economically vibrant... There are many more meaningful ways to show this to the world, such as creating meaningful lo-rise sustainable developments which would show that Boston is smart enough to move on from the "whose is bigger" competition.
 
Re: Trans National Place (Winthrop Square) Part 2

I never said it's a who's bigger competition, Boston will never win that. Aren't there meaningful low-rise developments going on now? Haven't there been several in the last few years? If not what exactly does "meaningful low-rise sustainable developments" mean?
Bottom line is TNP would create large amounts of class A office space that could allow a large company to occupy one building and either stay here in Boston or come to Boston. I thought I remembered hearing something about a company that was going to move out of International place because they needed 200,000 sq ft and IP couldn't give them that, and when they looked at other options for that much class A office space, there were only one or two options?
 
Re: Trans National Place (Winthrop Square) Part 2

^^That's a fair point.

I've never really cared to much for the height for height sake argument but if we assume the following is true:
a. large corporations require large amounts of continuous Class A office space
b. having large corporations move into the city is good for Boston

Then we have to accept that these type of towers are good for the city.

I just wish they would make them look nicer.
 
Re: Trans National Place (Winthrop Square) Part 2

I never said it's a who's bigger competition, Boston will never win that. Aren't there meaningful low-rise developments going on now? Haven't there been several in the last few years? If not what exactly does "meaningful low-rise sustainable developments" mean?
Bottom line is TNP would create large amounts of class A office space that could allow a large company to occupy one building and either stay here in Boston or come to Boston. I thought I remembered hearing something about a company that was going to move out of International place because they needed 200,000 sq ft and IP couldn't give them that, and when they looked at other options for that much class A office space, there were only one or two options?

You did say that the height was a "glass ceiling" that had to be broken, though. Why does this height matter so much? I'm not talking about having the tallest in the world, or even in the US, but what is so important about having supertall towers here at all? The South Station tower will add to the Boston supply of office space (that simply can't be in that much demand, or they would've been able to build the original plan). I don't see any reason why this tower shouldn't be built, but the height should be the least important part of the plan...
 
Re: Trans National Place (Winthrop Square) Part 2

^Well, there's something to be said for aesthetics. Boston doesn't have to be NYC or Chicago but compared to other cities its size, Boston's downtown skyline is pretty bland and "flat"; it could use a few "spikes" to break things up.

PS - height DOES matter. Someone below said that this building is "unworthy" of Boston. Huh? Are the 60's-70's building block towers we already have "worthy" of Boston? This building will easily be one of our top 5 towers on its height alone. And, quite frankly, it isn't THAT unnattractive.
 
Re: Trans National Place (Winthrop Square) Part 2

(And be suspicious of anyone who claims a 1000 foot buiding is "green.")

A 1000 foot building is a lot more green then lowrise buildings, it's efficient land use, something that's "green". Miami has a development boundary, as well as Las Vegas, that's why they have skyscraper booms and a lot of highrises. I know Boston can't have one because the edges of the metropolitan area blend into the next city (Portland Maine, Providence, and NYC) but we should reduce the NIMBY attitude that blocks the city from moving forward and developing, like any other city. And Houston and Phoenix don't seem to be in a race for height, Phoenix is just building a 525 ft tower, not exactly "high".

Height does matter! We need supertall buildings, I don't get the opposition to height, even on this forum. Everywhere else embraces supertall buildings, but it seems like Boston is the only major city in the U.S. that opposes them even when one is right on their doorstep. Usually the city will wholeheartedly embrace the skyscraper as a means for further urbanity and economic development, with little or no resistance. Get rid of the shadows law! I've never heard anything as rediculous as that, plus shadows don't really have much negative effect on the Common and the Public Garden. They'll still be tourist hotspots, shadows or not.
 
Re: Trans National Place (Winthrop Square) Part 2

I really can't see the economic impact of finishing this building as a positive for Boston. There is already plenty of class A office space in the pipeline that will come to market much faster than this building ever would. In my opinion, this is too much space for the market to absorb at once. If anything, this building could be finished at the bottom of the next office space cycle, or it should wait for the next cycle after that.

I can already see the headlines "Belkin Finishes Giant Empty Box, Goes Broke"
 
Re: Trans National Place (Winthrop Square) Part 2

^^
If you build it they will come?
 
Re: Trans National Place (Winthrop Square) Part 2

Why not build it? I am sure that once this is built, there will not be a problem filing it up. It will Boston's premiere office tower, in the heart of CBD. People do travel to cities to see skylines, highrises and architecture. I am not saying that we will see a huge increase of people coming to Boston just for this, but it will be a destination for some. And it will be a sense of pride. Just like the Zakim is photographed and admired, this will be too. And maybe it will spur more growth. I would rather see a dense cluster of highrises, then spread out mid-rises. This, with Filene's and SST, and possibly what is developed on the Aquarium garage will only help Boston by drawing in businesses, tourism and help overall health of the city.
 
Re: Trans National Place (Winthrop Square) Part 2

All I can say is I'm ready for CBT to release those new renderings! It's been over a year!!
 
Re: Trans National Place (Winthrop Square) Part 2

Tall buildings do not make a city. Look at Charlotte. Tall buildings, empty streets.

Do you really think that 1000 foot plus buildings matter to the average person? I was at Pub trivia last Wednesday when the following question came up: Which American city west of the Mississippi has the tallest building. I salivated at this question, and the answer is obviously Las Vegas, and I was the only one who got it correct in the whole bar. Most probably guessed Houston or LA. And do you think that anybody could name the thousand foot buildings in those cities?
 
Re: Trans National Place (Winthrop Square) Part 2

My guess would have been San Francisco, or perhaps Seattle if the Space Needle can be considered a building. (Can it?)

I doubt that I can name more than a handful of very-tall buildings anywhere in the US:

Boston has the Pru and the Hancock, as well as the earlier Custom House and Old Hancock.

NYC has the Chrysler and Empire State and used to have the World Trade Center towers, but it has lots of other less-famous towers whose names I don't know.

Chicago has the John Hancock and the Sears Tower, and again lots of others whose names I don't know. You could throw in Tribune Tower and the Wrigley Building while you're at it.

Cleveland has the Terminal Tower.

Pittsburgh has the Cathedral of Learning.

San Francisco has the Transamerica Pyramid, notable for its unusual shape.

Los Angeles has .... I'm sure a whole bunch, but I can't name or picture even one.
 

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