Winthrop Center | 115 Winthrop Square | Financial District

Re: 115 Winthrop Square | Financial District

Spite really isn't a substitute for policy.

No, but they can compliment each other. ;)

Saying the city should deal reasonably with people like Shirley Kressel is like saying if the world could only be nicer to Trump he'd act less insane. There's no reasoning with idiots, and since 90% of NIMBY's are in fact idiots, there's no reasoning with them.
 
Re: 115 Winthrop Square | Financial District

No, but they can compliment each other. ;)

Saying the city should deal reasonably with people like Shirley Kressel is like saying if the world could only be nicer to Trump he'd act less insane. There's no reasoning with idiots, and since 90% of NIMBY's are in fact idiots, there's no reasoning with them.

Can you reason with the other 10%? That would be a start. Reason should never be given up on. What is the alternative. Fight crazy with crazy?

cca
 
Re: 115 Winthrop Square | Financial District

It's not like Kessel or the CLF or any of the other watchdog groups don't have legitimate points sometimes. Crushing their opposition isn't good or highly desired IMO.
 
Re: 115 Winthrop Square | Financial District

Meddlepal,

In theory you're absolutely right; except the BRA is, for the most part more than reasonable–and "adjust" the ambitions of developers when their projects carry excessive negative impact/s–back to a scale all on their own. There are of course exceptions, which many on this board can cite. But, the vast majority of projects are weighed, then presented equitably to the neighborhoods. They don't arrive at Article 80 requiring obstruction (or what far too often amounts to extortion) from fierce neighborhood agitators–with their extreme selfish agendas or lonely-paranoid urban psychosis who are happy to follow them.

Then you got the yimby's like me. :rolleyes:
 
Re: 115 Winthrop Square | Financial District

The BPDA/BRA has shown historically that it cannot be trusted to act in the best interests of the city. A BRA without good oversight and accountability is what got us the razing of the West End.
 
Re: 115 Winthrop Square | Financial District

Meh, that was 60 years ago.

In the aftermath of that event, the searing of the conscience at City Hall after all those displaced residents, the welcoming of ugly Downtown towers, brutalist monstrosities that even included but not limited to a horrid inverted "ziggurat" (wtf) ....and after the arrival of Ray Flynn, Boston the nimby "Brahmin Way" grew as an accepted reaction throughout the neighborhoods. Your choice to cite the Razing of the West End to justify the current sentiment is as bogus as the Russian's claiming Germany is about to re-arm and invade for stacking a half a million soldiers and 75,000 tanks at the border.

If you wan't to talk bulldozers, just keep the rinse cycle for scaling back projects like Tremont Crossing and 45 Worthington going for a few more years. ...Then, you just might see the dozers make their triumphant return (this time in JP, Mission Hill), etc.
 
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Re: 115 Winthrop Square | Financial District

It's not like Kessel or the CLF or any of the other watchdog groups don't have legitimate points sometimes. Crushing their opposition isn't good or highly desired IMO.

You've got to be kidding me. Squirrely Shirley hasn't come up with a legitimate point even by accident in her whole unfortunate existence. The woman is a loon. You don't try to negotiate with people like that because its a waste of time, which plays into their hands.

Also as another poster said, get over the West End already. It was 60 freakin years ago.

Can you reason with the other 10%? That would be a start. Reason should never be given up on. What is the alternative. Fight crazy with crazy?

Yes, reason needs to be given up on for the greater good when dealing with idiots. Most people learn this after their first 6 months in the workforce after graduation. There are people out there who can not be reached, reasoned with or negotiated with. I understand affordable housing and transit concerns and those should be discussed. But when you have people simply looking to get their name in the paper for blocking or ruining a project, wasting valuable time trying to reach them costs the city real money that could be used for housing, parks, and transportation.
 
Re: 115 Winthrop Square | Financial District

Also as another poster said, get over the West End already. It was 60 freakin years ago.

Sorry but simply NO!.

Forget and we invite it to happen again.

The BPDA just re-upped their Urban Renewal authority with the State for another decade. So they still have all the bad, abusive, eminent domain power that can be misused.

Remember, but do not be blinded by it. Is West End, New York Streets, Scollay Square style urban renewal likely -- no. Is it possible, YES. BPDA has the innate power for abuse. They need to be watched.
 
Re: 115 Winthrop Square | Financial District

Remember, but do not be blinded by it. Is West End, New York Streets, Scollay Square style urban renewal likely -- no. Is it possible, YES. BPDA has the innate power for abuse. They need to be watched.

What are these "New York Streets" that you speak of?

Regarding Shirley Kressel, I blame her and the rest of the NIMBY's everytime we lose something historic. I blame her for the Dainty Dot because the appropriate height to include salvaging the building with a facadectomy wasn't allowed. I blame her for losing the Times Building because the appropriate heights (and additional units) wasn't allowed somewhere else. Every time we chop down proposals, all we are doing is pushing out that demand to ANOTHER proposal. That is the legacy of NIMBY's in Boston.*

*Let's say legacy since 2000 and leave the 1960's urban renewal bs out of it. That was a bad time for all of America, not just Boston, and I don't expect it to be repeated.
 
Re: 115 Winthrop Square | Financial District

DZH,

i'm sure you realize he's just reminding the board; the BRA didn't spare the wrecking ball from Downtown and much of the South End. Undoubtedly, a controversy that will probably never end. They took out a lot of slums and failing buildings, but a high number of capable structures as well. But we have a reasonably dense city nearly in proportion to it's might. ok, maybe not. The Dainty Dot was a blow.

Capping height at 149 (or 250') all over the city for non-educational residential and mixed use buildings is going to lead to more problems in the future; not-only can you not replace them with anything but 'extremely tall,' ...soon, nearest to the core, where the economics dictate more 300-400' buildings, the only parcels left will be obvious no-go's.

In the long run, Boston might be better-served if we were to get a mix height and density like what we're seeing (proposed) in the Fenway and Mission Hill and have it creep outward. Remove a few sets of 3 or 4 triple deckers, and replace them with the odd 300-400' tower, then a medium-height 'Serenity' type of thing, and infill. Build groups of parcels right the first time. It's the direction Boston will be forced to go anyway.

Otherwise, you're inching closer to the day when the BRA is once again forced to set about razing entire streets. i hope we don't do that, or get into replacing entire streets with too many parcels capped too low (but we probably will).

However slowly the evolution toward this type planning takes place, i wonder if the day ever comes where someone says, in order to save more historical treasures elsewhere in the City, "instead of developing Dorchester to look like recent developments on the New York Streets, we should just skip to the next level: Vancouver." One could argue we are Vancouver. If it's going taller than a brownstone, if someone says we should build that thing 80-150' taller – they could be right.
 
Re: 115 Winthrop Square | Financial District

I believe they were named after places in new york because of a rail road line that terminated here from new york.
 
Re: 115 Winthrop Square | Financial District

I believe they were named after places in new york because of a rail road line that terminated here from new york.

I believe it was to commemorate when the rail connection between Albany and Boston was created, giving the city a direct connection to the Erie canal. If I remember it was also kind of a marketing ploy to show to shipping companies that there was the direct connection there. Obviously, didn't really work to rival NYC again as a port, though.

Also, people seem to be leaving out the swaths of Chinatown and other neighborhoods that were lost for the highway, the Southwest Corridor that cut through the various southern neighborhoods, Barry's corner, etc. Urban renewal should never be forgotten - it almost killed the city in its march for modernism, and the city still bares the scars today, many which will be here for ever.

Also, as has been pointed out before, you don't need crazy height to have a high population density and a great urban city - again, just look at Paris and other European cities. We just need constant 5-6 story buildings from the core out, especially on main streets.
 
Re: 115 Winthrop Square | Financial District

Sorry but simply NO!.

Forget and we invite it to happen again.

The BPDA just re-upped their Urban Renewal authority with the State for another decade. So they still have all the bad, abusive, eminent domain power that can be misused.

Remember, but do not be blinded by it. Is West End, New York Streets, Scollay Square style urban renewal likely -- no. Is it possible, YES. BPDA has the innate power for abuse. They need to be watched.

Yes, it is important to remember history so as not to repeat it, but I don't think there is much of anyone out there, including at the BRA, advocating for wholesale bulldozing of neighborhoods. Cities all over the country have been trying to deal with the mistakes of the 1960s-70s for decades now. And that period certainly created the current focus on community buy in-which has its own problems but again reduces the possibility of a repeat of the West End or New York Streets.
 
Re: 115 Winthrop Square | Financial District

Also, as has been pointed out before, you don't need crazy height to have a high population density and a great urban city - again, just look at Paris and other European cities. We just need constant 5-6 story buildings from the core out, especially on main streets.

Or even some place closer like Washington D.C. which has overtaken Boston in terms of population within the last decade.
 
Re: 115 Winthrop Square | Financial District

Or even some place closer like Washington D.C. which has overtaken Boston in terms of population within the last decade.

DC is also 20 or so square miles larger than Boston. Doesn't seem like much but you could throw in Cambridge and Brookline and still have a few square miles left over.
 
Re: 115 Winthrop Square | Financial District

DC is also 20 or so square miles larger than Boston. Doesn't seem like much but you could throw in Cambridge and Brookline and still have a few square miles left over.

Yes but a significant portion of that is dedicated to federal land that can't house people.
 
Re: 115 Winthrop Square | Financial District

DC is also 20 or so square miles larger than Boston. Doesn't seem like much but you could throw in Cambridge and Brookline and still have a few square miles left over.

From wikipedia:
Boston density: 6,900/sq mi
DC: 11,158/sq mi

I was referencing density and not total population - you can have population density without building taller than about 6 stories, as DC also shows. Paris is on an entirely different level at 55,000/sq mi.
 
Re: 115 Winthrop Square | Financial District

That Paris number is extraordinary.
The looney tunes in the Globe comments sections who talk about how MA is the 3rd or 4th most densely populated state, and we already have too many people..... would love to live in Paris if you asked them. Without realizing they have literally 8 times our population density/sq. mi.

Be a great experiment. If you asked many in the opposition to Boston's growth, when given a number of options including Paris, which they would like Boston to be most like. I bet a high number would choose Paris.
 
Re: 115 Winthrop Square | Financial District

When's Baker signing this baby into law?
 

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