Winthrop Center | 115 Winthrop Square | Financial District

[Blackdog]

Re: 115 Winthrop Square | Financial District

Why does every rendering look different? This could have been infinitely better.

This screams cost consolidation. I wish we took a lower bid.

I agree, there was another proposal that was just as ugly as this tower but at least that one was 50% affordable housing.

 

[DZH22]

Re: 115 Winthrop Square | Financial District

I agree, there was another proposal that was just as ugly as this tower but at least that one was 50% affordable housing.

I think the main difference is this one will have high quality materials with its crappy design, while the other one looked like it was lower quality materials with just as crappy of a design.

I still hope we can get an Accordia type tower somewhere else in the city, maybe even a taller version around North Station.

 

[Arborway]

Re: 115 Winthrop Square | Financial District

115 Winthrop's entry in the "Why couldn't they just make the whole building look like this part of the building?" series.

 

[cca]

Re: 115 Winthrop Square | Financial District

This screams cost consolidation. I wish we took a lower bid.

Welcome to the game most developers and their teams play (which I think is unethical) ... show sexy unrealistic stuff up front ... then walk it back over time until someone stops you, draw, build, sell. Rince and repeat.

cca

 

[617]

Re: 115 Winthrop Square | Financial District

I think my main issue with this is the back side of the tower...I hate the two buildings colliding look...doesn’t look clean at all.

 

[Arborway]

Re: 115 Winthrop Square | Financial District

I think my main issue with this is the back side of the tower...I hate the two buildings colliding look...doesn’t look clean at all.

It's mandatory these days to incorporate at least 3 or 4 clashing facade styles in your design.

 

[cca]

Re: 115 Winthrop Square | Financial District

It's mandatory these days to incorporate at least 3 or 4 clashing facade styles in your design.

Its called "mitigating scale issues". The neighborhood groups love that phrase. Learn it well. As well as "we are making free parking available to only people who live in the neighborhood" and "we are going to provide free sunlight to everyone all the time when you want it"

cca

 

[TheRifleman]

Re: 115 Winthrop Square | Financial District

I could see millennium group being held holding the bag on this development. Money could dry up quick if we are entering a bear market which I believe at least a 20% correction coming.

 

[Coyote137]

Re: 115 Winthrop Square | Financial District

oh for god's sake.

 

[odurandina]

How i stopped worrying and learned to love big VE'd towers.

re; How i stopped worrying and learned to love big VE'd towers.

I could see millennium group being held holding the bag on this development....

A downturn is assumed.... MP can start building it, top out, put on the curtain wall and keep going regardless of if the economy takes a dump.... and harvest the $$$ after the economy rebounds. .... we got ourselves a big league developer here just moving assets a board. Why do you think they won?

The VE'd architecture looking like something out of Bishkek, Kyrgyzstan in the 1970s is the result of Socialist/Marxist watchdogs like Shirley Kressel...... We're the Canaries in their post-industrial coal mine.

 

[statler]

Re: How i stopped worrying and learned to love big VE'd towers.

The VE'd architecture looking like something out of Bishkek, Kyrgyzstan in the 1970s is the result of Socialist/Marxist watchdogs like Shirley Kressel...... We're the Canaries in their post-industrial coal mine.

How so?

VE = "Value Engineering" as in adding value to the bottom line. It's literally only done to increase profit.

 

[odurandina]

Re: 115 Winthrop Square | Financial District

^^Start with offering a bit too much based on a programmable 750~775' tower.

Then telling all the beneficiaries, "we really can keep the benefits package in place simply by reassigning the massing, increasing the sq ft of the less valuable floors," etc.

But, it was supposed to strike a balance between a gilded, visible, iconic landmark w/ public use at its base + a skywalk. To keep the promises made to the beneficiaries, they've spurned that standard.


from 06-20-2016,

Not sure when this was added, but acquisition price offers from each team are now on the BRA website.
Not looking good for the aB poll leader...

from 06-20-2016,

Purchase offers* are as follows:

Millennium - $150,790,000 ($100,000,000 land offer + $50,790,000 at $100/sf as units are sold)
HYM - $100,000,000 ($68,250,000 land offer)
LendLease - $75,000,000 (land offer only)
TransNational - $75,000,000 (land offer only)
Trinity - $60,500,000 (land offer only)
Accordia - $50,000,000 (land offer only)

*Developers included other public benefits & payouts. Some are not raw land offers.

from 06-20-2016,

i don't like Millennium's render despite that the base of the tower looks very good. i've been worried Millennium would win based on their cash reserves – wealth sufficient to see a campaign saddled with possibly lowered expectations to the end nevertheless with room to spare.

But the BRA doesn't have to look too far into the future to justify Accordia or Transnational to anti-development empress Shirley or anyone else. Over time, the money evens out probably with Transnational besting Millennium.

from 06-20-2016,

I looked into the program of each proposal. While the tax rates and revenues are pretty hard to calculate (because they're based on value, not SF), it's pretty striking how differently-sized these buildings actually are. You can pretty closely relate SF to value, and therefore to projected revenue.

Trans National - 1.715 million GSF (500-700K office, 1 million residential, 30K retail)
Millennium - 1.4 million (500K office, 600K residential, 30K retail)
Trinity - 900K
HYM - 785K
Accordia - 767K

I'm not sure whether the Trans National number includes their existing building or not, which may make a difference, and Lendlease's (annoying) presentation doesn't give it.

I'm not an expert, but I'm not sure how the city can give this to Accordia. They'd be walking away from a huge amount of money. If the City needs a Downtown school, HYM might be workable.

The question is whether the increased value of Trans National over time makes up the $75.79 million in additional cost paid by Millennium upfront. I did some quick calculations using the assessor's database with a condo in 45 Province and 200 Clarendon as exemplars for residential and office value per SF. At the current property tax rates, Millennium would pay about $12M per year in R+O property tax, and Trans National $18.

The City of Boston breaks even in year 13. Now, that doesn't account for the fact that Millennium has the Great Hall and Trans National has... a set of posters about innovation, or that Millennium is the definition of proven and Trans National has spent a decade failing on this very site during a boom.

For those of us - like me - who don't like the Millennium design, we're probably going to have to get used to it.

prescient.

from 06-26-2016, suggesting Millennium has overbid, setting Boston up for a poor outcome with a tower too large (fat) for the parcel; that MP had effectively, "bribed the city."

Despite that the base of Millennium's 111 Fed tower proposal looks very good, it's important to remember, it's just an artist's drawing. The site isn't as large as the artist's render makes it appear. The bad far outweighs the good. The last thing we need is another ugly, extremely fat highrise in any part of Boston. Millennium Partners could win based on their large cash reserves: wealth sufficient to see any project to the end (despite the breakup of the EU and world recession) with room to spare.

Despite the money up front for a building that is far too large, (Millennium) the BRA doesn't have to look too far into the future to justify a smaller project like Accordia or Transnational. Over time, the money evens out probably with Transnational besting Millennium, or simply doing Accordia + HYM.

from 06-27-2016,

i resent Trinity's proposal... and Millennium's. Both proposals are designed to ignite controversy, and work up populist resentment against the BRA from community activists and generally, left-leaning citizens. A scare tactic to sway the Board from embracing iconic towers like Accordia's. Sorry, but these proposals are as far more cleverly contrived stunts than thoughtful, and well-designed towers.

The BRA made very clear their desire to see good architecture done here and Trinity and Millennium have disqualified themselves with ridiculous proposals.

Millennium's proposal is WAY TOO LARGE for this parcel.... taken as a whole, their offer is little more than a bribe....

i'd have been excited to see the original fat design shortened by 35 feet from 750' to 715'. Now, they've made it even fatter, and eliminated the attractive curtain wall.

We have Shirley Kressel to thank for introducing the narrative of a MAX VALUE sale of the Garage.
.

 

[odurandina]

Re: 115 Winthrop Square | Financial District

from 06-27-2016,

Sorry odurandina, but I must wholeheartedly disagree with this one. A traditional/well-documented/tried-and-true business strategy is to specialize and differentiate; each of these developers was trying to do as strategy theorists love to exclaim "stay out of the middle of the road!" My guess is that these guys all knew it was going to be a crowded field, and they know that a proposal that is average across all factors will never win; simply put, they sought to differentiate, and took bold guesses as to which dimension they should focus on.

Business 101. Not everything is a left-driven conspiracy. Plus, it is in no developer's advantage to skewer the BRA.

Fair enough; no one can blame MP for developing the winning strategy and having the clout to pull it off. i'll withdraw from undressing the outcome as the [scourge of socialism] or even Shirley Kressel having succeeded in stopping iconic development at Winthrop Square--especially, in a City whose residents deserve the maximum # of affordable units be built, and our green spaces be properly maintained.

Of all institutions; it was the Globe who posed this very question in the context of 115 Winthop Square after the bids were submitted;

Affordable Housing vs Cool Architecture....

https://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion...-has-choose/K0UDKcLAKpCIOysqTeyxBI/story.html


Boston is strong enough that we can draw the additional revenue (fatness) to keep the promises to the beneficiaries from the greater real estate boom. We don't need to squeeze every last dime from a single parcel and ruin a once-in-a-generation opportunity.

 

[Coyote137]

Re: 115 Winthrop Square | Financial District

Who are you calling fat?

 

[Justin7]

Re: 115 Winthrop Square | Financial District

The massing would work much better if the Federal Street volume was shorter.

That does look significantly better with your edit, but also because you can't see the 3rd (!) facade style from that angle.

 

[DZH22]

Re: 115 Winthrop Square | Financial District

I will say that if this is built as-is, the tall back section will create a hell of a canyon on Federal Street. Silver linings I guess.

 

[theSil]

Re: 115 Winthrop Square | Financial District

At this point, I think I'm most unhappy with what they're proposing to do to the Winthrop Square park (page 29). Why replace a charming green space that feels like Boston with something that looks like an Anywhere, USA corporate campus.

Looking at the Street View from Aug 2017, it is clearly functional and gets a lot of use as is. https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3547959,-71.057514,3a,75y,237.26h,83.04t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s4l_VVtIdMjE7iZx85aNiiQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656. Improve the seating and call it a day.

 

[DZH22]

Re: 115 Winthrop Square | Financial District

At this point, I think I'm most unhappy with what they're proposing to do to the Winthrop Square park (page 29). Why replace a charming green space that feels like Boston with something that looks like an Anywhere, USA corporate campus.

Looking at the Street View from Aug 2017, it is clearly functional and gets a lot of use as is. https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3547959,-71.057514,3a,75y,237.26h,83.04t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s4l_VVtIdMjE7iZx85aNiiQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656. Improve the seating and call it a day.

"Why make something better, when we could make it worse instead?" -Boston

 

[reverend_paco]

Re: 115 Winthrop Square | Financial District

At this point, I think I'm most unhappy with what they're proposing to do to the Winthrop Square park (page 29). Why replace a charming green space that feels like Boston with something that looks like an Anywhere, USA corporate campus.

Looking at the Street View from Aug 2017, it is clearly functional and gets a lot of use as is. https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3547959,-71.057514,3a,75y,237.26h,83.04t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s4l_VVtIdMjE7iZx85aNiiQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656. Improve the seating and call it a day.

Funny, I've always noted how it gets its use from the fixie crowd, and this google view shows exactly that. The bike delivery crowd uses it as a remount and seen at night is the occasional St.Anthony's shrine wanderer.

I'm not saying it's uninviting, but it is not generally used as a public hang out (like PO square).

 

[nm88]

Re: 115 Winthrop Square | Financial District

At this point, I think I'm most unhappy with what they're proposing to do to the Winthrop Square park (page 29). Why replace a charming green space that feels like Boston with something that looks like an Anywhere, USA corporate campus.

Looking at the Street View from Aug 2017, it is clearly functional and gets a lot of use as is. https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3547959,-71.057514,3a,75y,237.26h,83.04t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s4l_VVtIdMjE7iZx85aNiiQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656. Improve the seating and call it a day.

Agreed. Why indeed?