Winthrop Center | 115 Winthrop Square | Financial District

[citylover94]

Re: 111 Federal St. | Formerly Trans National Place (Winthrop Square) Part 2

You are right I was a bit overeager but to see even proposals moving in that direction is I think something special especially with it becoming more common. Especially considering some of the more unfortunate towers built recently as well such as the Kensington.

 

[stick n move]

Re: 111 Federal St. | Formerly Trans National Place (Winthrop Square) Part 2

I think recently Boston has actually been at the front of some architectural trends with Liberty Mutual as a modern Art Deco style, the almost "cut" pinstripe effect on the Four Seasons is another style of the glass tower that is new to the scene, and One Bromfield and Accordia both resemble elements of 11 W 57th St. I think for the first time since the John Hancock Tower and City Hall/ the other brutalist buildings Boston is at the forefront of architecture after a short break following 80s POMO.

In my opinions 1 Dalton reminds me a lot of columbia center in Seattle, but like were saying its still moving the style forward. The small intricacies that add depth to the glass facade, the color choices with gold accenting, the cantilevers, the engaging street life/retail...etc. Millennium is a very very good overall development and these if built will already outshine it. That being said its a great tower that breathed new life and vision back into the downtown skyline.

 

[JeffDowntown]

Re: 111 Federal St. | Formerly Trans National Place (Winthrop Square) Part 2

I feel like 111 W 57th (Also SHoP), better illustrates your point better than Tower Verre. There's already a mock-up of the facade, and IMO it looks fantastic.

Both 111 W 57 & 340 Flatbush are SHoP designs.

Tower Verre is a great example of how the structural elements can play into the design of the facade.

Just pointing out that the floor by floor evolving pattern proposed by Accordia is WAY more complex than the vertical striping shown for 111 W 57th.

I just get a strong gut feeling that this is classical developer bait and switch -- renders are cheap -- twirling floor by floor tiles are not.

 

[citylover94]

Re: 111 Federal St. | Formerly Trans National Place (Winthrop Square) Part 2

The facade is the same system as 111 from the looks of it though with the difference being instead of using identical tiles they have 5 to 10 unique versions that are used in a specific pattern to create a rotating effect I doubt it is much more expensive than if they were all the same.

 

[JeffDowntown]

Re: 111 Federal St. | Formerly Trans National Place (Winthrop Square) Part 2

The facade is the same system as 111 from the looks of it though with the difference being instead of using identical tiles they have 5 to 10 unique versions that are used in a specific pattern to create a rotating effect I doubt it is much more expensive than if they were all the same.

Maybe if they come in pre-assembled strips with (REALLY CLEAR) instructions. The logistics of not making a mistake over 70 stories of the pattern is pretty complex.

 

[odurandina]

Re: 111 Federal St. | Formerly Trans National Place (Winthrop Square) Part 2

Accordia and 1 Bromfield, 1 Dalton, Copley Sq etc....

 

[cca]

Re: 111 Federal St. | Formerly Trans National Place (Winthrop Square) Part 2

Maybe if they come in pre-assembled strips with (REALLY CLEAR) instructions. The logistics of not making a mistake over 70 stories of the pattern is pretty complex.

All buildings come with instructions. Its just like building a lego set.

cca

 

[statler]

Re: 111 Federal St. | Formerly Trans National Place (Winthrop Square) Part 2

Another reason to appreciate/save the craftsmanship involved in old masonry buildings.

 

[Boston02124]

Re: 111 Federal St. | Formerly Trans National Place (Winthrop Square) Part 2

Accordia and 1 Bromfield, 1 Dalton, Copley Sq etc....

If it wasn't for the Pru ,at 1st glance I wd never think this was Boston, lets hope this is the future!

 

[Scalziand]

Re: 111 Federal St. | Formerly Trans National Place (Winthrop Square) Part 2

Just pointing out that the floor by floor evolving pattern proposed by Accordia is WAY more complex than the vertical striping shown for 111 W 57th.

I just get a strong gut feeling that this is classical developer bait and switch -- renders are cheap -- twirling floor by floor tiles are not.

The facade is the same system as 111 from the looks of it though with the difference being instead of using identical tiles they have 5 to 10 unique versions that are used in a specific pattern to create a rotating effect I doubt it is much more expensive than if they were all the same.

Maybe if they come in pre-assembled strips with (REALLY CLEAR) instructions. The logistics of not making a mistake over 70 stories of the pattern is pretty complex.

Just to be clear, the tile pattern on 111 is NOT the same all the way up. It's just so subtle that it can't really be seen on the 2 story sample facade.

 

[BKNA]

Re: 111 Federal St. | Formerly Trans National Place (Winthrop Square) Part 2

The presentations that the developers made on May 31 are here:

http://www.bostonredevelopmentauthority.org/work-with-the-bra/rfps-rfqs-bids/rfp-listing-page?id=78

Warning: Large PDFs

Accordia

HYM

Lendlease

Millennium

TransNational (.SWF)

Trinity

Not sure when this was added, but acquisition price offers from each team are now on the BRA website.
Not looking good for the aB poll leader...

 

[type001]

Re: 111 Federal St. | Formerly Trans National Place (Winthrop Square) Part 2

I would say "no" too.

50,000,000 Accordia
65,000,000 Trinity
75,000,000 Transnational
75,000,000 Lendlease
100,000,000 Hym
150,790,000 Millenium

 

[datadyne007]

Re: 111 Federal St. | Formerly Trans National Place (Winthrop Square) Part 2

Not sure when this was added, but acquisition price offers from each team are now on the BRA website.
Not looking good for the aB poll leader...

Purchase offers* are as follows:

Millennium - $150,790,000 ($100,000,000 land offer + $50,790,000 at $100/sf as units are sold)
HYM - $100,000,000 ($68,250,000 land offer)
LendLease - $75,000,000 (land offer only)
TransNational - $75,000,000 (land offer only)
Trinity - $60,500,000 (land offer only)
Accordia - $50,000,000 (land offer only)

*Developers included other public benefits & payouts. Some are not raw land offers.

 

[Equilibria]

Re: 111 Federal St. | Formerly Trans National Place (Winthrop Square) Part 2

Millennium - $150,790,000
HYM - $100,000,000
LendLease - $75,000,000
TransNational - $75,000,000
Trinity - $60,500,000
Accordia - $50,000,000

...and there you have it.

I might keep HYM in the race, if only because they're offering to build a school and religious center (which isn't public, but does provide a soup kitchen and food bank, plus all the Catholic homerism), but 50% above the next highest bidder means its pretty much over.

EDIT: HYM values the school and shrine improvements at $93 million total.

FURTHER EDIT: Ah, HYM is counting the school costs in the bid. They really bid $62.25 million for the site.

EVEN FURTHER EDIT: Millennium actually bid $100 million for the site, and added an additional contribution for each "saleable square foot" of the residences that they sell. It seems like a flat rate, but I wonder if that's a hedge against being forced to include more market-rate or under-market units (i.e., their square footage wouldn't count). It may also have been a hedge against the financial disadvantage to the city by residential vs. office use (lower taxes and consumption of benefits).

 

[617]

Re: 111 Federal St. | Formerly Trans National Place (Winthrop Square) Part 2

How can they be so different...$50-$150 is a huge range.

 

[datadyne007]

Re: 111 Federal St. | Formerly Trans National Place (Winthrop Square) Part 2

...and there you have it.

I might keep HYM in the race, if only because they're offering to build a school and religious center (which isn't public, but does provide a soup kitchen and food bank, plus all the Catholic homerism), but 50% above the next highest bidder means its pretty much over.

EDIT: HYM values the school and shrine improvements at $93 million total.

FURTHER EDIT: Ah, HYM is counting the school costs in the bid. They really bid $62.25 million for the site.

EVEN FURTHER EDIT: Millennium actually bid $100 million for the site, and added an additional contribution for each "saleable square foot" of the residences that they sell. It seems like a flat rate, but I wonder if that's a hedge against being forced to include more market-rate or under-market units (i.e., their square footage wouldn't count). It may also have been a hedge against the financial disadvantage to the city by residential vs. office use (lower taxes and consumption of benefits).

Yeah, this is complex. I've been reading through the statements. Will clarify in my original post. It seems like they all used different numbers. TNP's says "without public benefits consideration."

 

[datadyne007]

Re: 111 Federal St. | Formerly Trans National Place (Winthrop Square) Part 2

Purchase offers* are as follows:

Millennium - $150,790,000 ($100,000,000 land offer + $50,790,000 at $100/sf as units are sold)
HYM - $100,000,000 ($68,250,000 land offer)
LendLease - $75,000,000 (land offer only)
TransNational - $75,000,000 (land offer only)
Trinity - $60,500,000 (land offer only)
Accordia - $50,000,000 (land offer only)

*Developers included other public benefits & payouts. Some are not raw land offers.

Carrying over important clarifications to the next page.

 

[Equilibria]

Re: 111 Federal St. | Formerly Trans National Place (Winthrop Square) Part 2

Yeah, this is complex. I've been reading through the statements. Will clarify in my original post. It seems like they all used different numbers. TNP's says "without public benefits consideration."

Really, the BRA will hopefully be considering life-cycle benefits, including not only whatever public benefits they see in each project (Millennium didn't value the Great Hall, FWIW) but also projected tax revenue and consumption of public services, for each proposal.

For instance, Accordia is including a luxury hotel. That's a huge tax bonus, which may partially offset the comparatively low bid for the land. By contrast, I bet Trinity's proposal, which would move a ton of medium and low-income families into the site, is actually quite a bit lower than $60 million in benefits, especially because Trinity doesn't build or fund a school.

 

[odurandina]

Re: 111 Federal St. | Formerly Trans National Place (Winthrop Square) Part 2

i don't like Millennium's render despite that the base of the tower looks very good. i've been worried Millennium would win based on their cash reserves – wealth sufficient to see a campaign saddled with possibly lowered expectations to the end nevertheless with room to spare.

But the BRA doesn't have to look too far into the future to justify Accordia or Transnational to anti-development empress Shirley or anyone else. Over time, the money evens out probably with Transnational besting Millennium.

 

[Equilibria]

Re: 111 Federal St. | Formerly Trans National Place (Winthrop Square) Part 2

But the BRA doesn't have to look too far into the future to justify Accordia or Transnational to anti-development empress Shirley or anyone else. Over time, the money evens out probably with Transnational besting Millennium.

I looked into the program of each proposal. While the tax rates and revenues are pretty hard to calculate (because they're based on value, not SF), it's pretty striking how differently-sized these buildings actually are. You can pretty closely relate SF to value, and therefore to projected revenue.

Trans National - 1.715 million GSF (500-700K office, 1 million residential, 30K retail)
Millennium - 1.4 million (500K office, 600K residential, 30K retail)
Trinity - 900K
HYM - 785K
Accordia - 767K

I'm not sure whether the Trans National number includes their existing building or not, which may make a difference, and Lendlease's (annoying) presentation doesn't give it.

I'm not an expert, but I'm not sure how the city can give this to Accordia. They'd be walking away from a huge amount of money. If the City needs a Downtown school, HYM might be workable.

The question is whether the increased value of Trans National over time makes up the $75.79 million in additional cost paid by Millennium upfront. I did some quick calculations using the assessor's database with a condo in 45 Province and 200 Clarendon as exemplars for residential and office value per SF. At the current property tax rates, Millennium would pay about $12M per year in R+O property tax, and Trans National $18.

The City of Boston breaks even in year 13. Now, that doesn't account for the fact that Millennium has the Great Hall and Trans National has... a set of posters about innovation, or that Millennium is the definition of proven and Trans National has spent a decade failing on this very site during a boom.

For those of us - like me - who don't like the Millennium design, we're probably going to have to get used to it.