Winthrop Center | 115 Winthrop Square | Financial District

[Beton Brut]

...a grand public gesture it is not.

I've been thinking about the real meaning of this statement in the linked context of the Bostonian psychographic and the broader values of American society in the 21st Century.

What is a "grand public gesture" in the age of Instagram? Is it an object to take a selfie in front of? A place to tag yourself to make your friends jealous? A spot with a good view of the (insert team here's) victory parade?

Part of me wants to surrender this blingy mess to the developer and let them make it what it will be -- an office building lobby. And ask for a check for the difference to invest in improving City Hall, or our neighborhood libraries, or other worthy historic sites.

 

[dshoost88]

A sincere question: is it common to NOT include ADA-required ramps in detailed renders like the ones released earlier today (looking at the stairs in the 'Great Connector')?

Thanks.

I think that actually is accessible. If you look at the Page 22 render, the accessible route does something like 7 zig zags while the stairs cut through the ramping.

Uhh, if we're looking at the same slideshow, then The Connector elevation change is indeed ADA accessible. It's, like, 40% ramps.

 

[datadyne007]

It does this:

 

[rjacobs]

Uhh, if we're looking at the same slideshow, then The Connector elevation change is indeed ADA accessible. It's, like, 40% ramps.

Yes, I see that...now. (a lot harder to discern on the p. 24 'head on' view). I was expecting a short straight ramp, instead of an 80 yard ramp that snakes back and forth in and out of the paths of a gauntlet of people and steps. Or perhaps the incline would be too steep.

I noticed the figure on the left side of p. 22; I picture the biker approaching the steps, looking left, then right, then left again, and then say 'ef it' and before hurling their bike towards the corridor of least resistance (and bodies).

 

[mdd]

These kind of ramps look a lot better, but I'd be willing to be people that actually need to use them hate having to traverse a dozen switchbacks.

 

[Kinopio]

I KNEW there was some poster out here who still had the hots for Squirrely Shirley! Just couldn't remember who..

BPDA director Brian Golden: Is so corrupt and incompetent that he tried to give away city owned land for practically nothing. If it was up to him he would have cost the taxpayers of Boston about $130 million dollars.

Shirley Kressel: Pointed out how corrupt and incompetent Brian Golden is. Helped the taxpayers of Boston get what is rightfully theirs, which will lead to improved parks and more affordable housing.

Hmmm I wonder which of those two people commenters should be criticizing?

 

[Rover]

BPDA director Brian Golden: Is so corrupt and incompetent that he tried to give away city owned land for practically nothing. If it was up to him he would have cost the taxpayers of Boston about $130 million dollars.

Shirley Kressel: Pointed out how corrupt and incompetent Brian Golden is. Helped the taxpayers of Boston get what is rightfully theirs, which will lead to improved parks and more affordable housing.

Hmmm I wonder which of those two people commenters should be criticizing?

Shirley Kressel's goal in life is to shut down all development higher than a tree and get her name in the paper. The woman is a loon. I used to like getting into it with her in the comments section of the Globe but she's either stopped posting or has been institutionalized. Regardless, if (and I'd need to see some actual links on this subject) she was part of getting more money out of the developer it was purely by accident. Sorta like if somebody comes by your house and asks you to sell it, and you give them a bullshit # to get rid of them, but then they say "sure" and hand you a suitcase full of cash.

 

[617]

Sorta like if somebody comes by your house and asks you to sell it, and you give them a bullshit # to get rid of them, but then they say "sure" and hand you a suitcase full of cash.

Bad analogy...happens constantly around here

 

[Rover]

Bad analogy...happens constantly around here

I know. The point being that if you stumble ass backwards into a good outcome that you never intended it doesn't make you a genius.

 

[nm88]

I've been thinking about the real meaning of this statement in the linked context of the Bostonian psychographic and the broader values of American society in the 21st Century.

What is a "grand public gesture" in the age of Instagram? Is it an object to take a selfie in front of? A place to tag yourself to make your friends jealous? A spot with a good view of the (insert team here's) victory parade?

Part of me wants to surrender this blingy mess to the developer and let them make it what it will be -- an office building lobby. And ask for a check for the difference to invest in improving City Hall, or our neighborhood libraries, or other worthy historic sites.

BB, interesting. The selfie world needs a back drop, yes? The financial aspect you mention is actually happening - the city will benefit. One of the reasons I think this development was selected.

These elements evolve. There were other proposals I liked better. What I did like about this one was how it greeted the public. It seemed to my eye, grand and welcoming. Not so much anymore. But who knows?

 

[Beton Brut]

...if you stumble ass backwards into a good outcome that you never intended it doesn't make you a genius.

Well okay then...Let's stretch this out a bit: are you suggesting that there's no value in activists holding elected officials, government agencies, and private sector developers to account? Or is it only those voices you disagree with that you wish to have silenced?

And while were on the topic, are you capable of discourse that hovers ever so slightly above insult and character assassination? Just curious...

The selfie world needs a back drop, yes?

Not a world I spend much time in, to be honest. In the broader sense, the urban landscape isn't a back drop. In the world I inhabit, it's the dynamic habitat for an ever-evolving society. I've no problem with it being photogenic, but I also want it to be equitable, adaptable, and authentic.

 

[Rover]

Well okay then...Let's stretch this out a bit: are you suggesting that there's no value in activists holding elected officials, government agencies, and private sector developers to account? Or is it only those voices you disagree with that you wish to have silenced?

And while were on the topic, are you capable of discourse that hovers ever so slightly above insult and character assassination? Just curious...

Lets take 'em one at a time.

1) You have to properly assess the activists motivations, which I feel often doesn't get a proper vetting. Some people may care strenuously about ticky tack procedural issues which is fine aside from them needing lives. Others may just wish to delay a project indefinitely to hide their true goal of seeing it not built for whatever reason. Its extremely important to figure this out else the whole city be held hostage by a small minority of skilled tacticians who don't have the public's best interests at heart.

I'll also say what really gets missed here is the foregone tax revenue which could be used for schools, police, transportation, etc as projects are needlessly delayed. Even if it eventually gets built, a 5 year delay is 5 years of taxes the city will never get back.

2) Depends on if people deserve it or not! Funny how you never seem to complain when I give Rifleman trouble...

 

[Beton Brut]

Fair enough.

There are scores of people in my neighborhood who I disagree with, but we interact with each other often at community meetings. (I saw a couple of them just last night, at a BPDA meeting about this shitty proposal in Maverick Square). I learn a lot of useful things from these interactions, even though we use different systems to measure value and assign meaning. Some of my neighbors maintain worldviews that I find utterly repugnant; I'd bet my life they feel the exact same way about me. But we stand on the same piece of dirt, so the returns for shin-kicking and toe-stomping get low quickly...

Disliking an opponent's tactics does nothing to win an argument. Ask them questions, and follow what their responses reveal...

The most interesting thing Shirley Kressel ever told us (briv and a couple of others were present as well) is that creating the Greenway was a stunning lost opportunity. She told us that the City would have been better off selling all of those parcels to residential and mixed-use developers, with the earnings invested in better access to the waterfront. Perhaps her opinion has evolved over the past several years...

 

[bigpicture7]

^As a society, we don't need to agree on everything. But we will never survive if we agree on nothing.

A shared basic value system that's compatible with differing worldviews is the only way to make it work, and constructing such a system requires input from both (all) sides.

 

[Beton Brut]

^ Indeed. Marginalizing dissent is a tactic toward elimination. Functioning civic societies don't do this.

 

[atlantaden]

The most interesting thing Shirley Kressel ever told us (briv and a couple of others were present as well) is that creating the Greenway was a stunning lost opportunity. She told us that the City would have been better off selling all of those parcels to residential and mixed-use developers, with the earnings invested in better access to the waterfront. Perhaps her opinion has evolved over the past several years...

But how realistic was this thinking after the city's residents were promised parkland after years of Big Dig disruption? If those parcels were sold off to developers to throw up residential/mixed use developments, the public, including many here, would have screamed that this was the West End all over again. And please explain better access to the waterfront, since the waterfront was already lined with private development, the only new building after the Big Dig that was built was, I believe, the InterContinental Hotel, and that was built on and around a vent building. The water front along the Greenway was already set in stone, so to speak. I have a feeling that if her opinion had evolved, it would probably be something along the lines of...."hmmm, actually, it wasn't feasible". Or am I just missing something here?

 

[Rover]

It's all about full disclosure. Do you have an angle to support or oppose a project that has nothing to do with its merits or lack thereof. If you see me at every meeting cheering every single project, and then you find out I'm being hired out to do so, well then I'd deserve to be called out. Also if I have a history of reflexively supporting every single proposal even if I don't have a direct stake in the outcome, again its not a problem if that's a known issue.

There is a professional group of people in the city who have become experts at the legal/regulatory workings of project approval, and that's not a bad thing. When they use that to stymie projects left and right for nefarious reasons (publicity, a feeling of power, don't want anything to change from a past era that they're fond of, Ned Flaherty looking to parlay that into a lucrative job, etc) that needs to be called out just as much.

 

[Beton Brut]

But how realistic was this thinking after the city's residents were promised parkland after years of Big Dig disruption?

That's very hard to say, and I'm not sure if the concept of restoring the pre-Central Artery street-grid with similarly scaled buildings was ever on the table during the mitigation meetings with North Enders circa 1990. I do recall seeing a document authored by members of the BSA that showed what such a build-out could have looked like.

And please explain better access to the waterfront, since the waterfront was already lined with private development...

Recalling a conversation that took place ~10 years ago is a tall order, but I think Shirley was referring to the reclamation of the Ft. Point and Reserve Channels, and a signature park on Fan Pier.

Ned Flaherty looking to parlay that into a lucrative job...

Well I've never heard that one. I thought he was using his argument against Columbus Center and ultra-fine particulate matter as a way to safeguard the view from his South End condominium. I recall Ned becoming very quiet when I asked why he failed to protest the expansion of Logan Airport or the construction of the Centerfield Taxiway allowing an increase in flights-per-hour capacity. Think of all the UFPs sifting down on his neighborhood from jetliners departing on 9/27.

 

[Rover]

Well I've never heard that one. I thought he was using his argument against Columbus Center and ultra-fine particulate matter as a way to safeguard the view from his South End condominium. I recall Ned becoming very quiet when I asked why he failed to protest the expansion of Logan Airport or the construction of the Centerfield Taxiway allowing an increase in flights-per-hour capacity. Think of all the UFPs sifting down on his neighborhood from jetliners departing on 9/27.

http://www.archboston.org/community/showpost.php?p=91100&postcount=381

From this website as reported by the Herald.

I recall several other incidents like this. One time the legislature had to specifically pass a law to stop some guy on the North Shore IIRC from suing a project for linkage fees or whatever. Apparently he'd become a master at holding up projects until developers contributed to his pet charities in the area.

You and I may differ on whether this is the norm or an outlier. I personally believe its the tip of the iceberg. Professional NIMBY's are the bane of this city's existence.

 

[DowntownDave]

That's very hard to say, and I'm not sure if the concept of restoring the pre-Central Artery street-grid with similarly scaled buildings was ever on the table during the mitigation meetings with North Enders circa 1990. I do recall seeing a document authored by members of the BSA that showed what such a build-out could have looked like.

This, I imagine?

From Inventing the Charles River, pg. 340. The book talks about this idea (all buildings) being mentioned and discussed in the Globe amongst other possibilities. They've even gotten rid of that crummy Cross st. parking lot in the image.