Winthrop Center | 115 Winthrop Square | Financial District

Re: 111 Federal St. | Formerly Trans National Place (Winthrop Square) Part 2

If I remember correctly, wasn't Belkin the only developer to even submit a proposal back in 2007? The fact that there are 7 other developers proposing a project on a significantly smaller piece of land is a testament to just how piping how the real estate is in Boston
 
Re: 111 Federal St. | Formerly Trans National Place (Winthrop Square) Part 2

citylover94 said:
I think it is different materials not a reflection because it tapers so the top of the tower has nothing to reflect but the sky.
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Unless the glass is angling in such a way that the reflection of the lower skyline is being pulled up. You may be right, but that is what is confusing me.
 
Re: 111 Federal St. | Formerly Trans National Place (Winthrop Square) Part 2

I guess we will have to see another render to find out. I hope it is some sort of bronze type accent around the windows.
 
Re: 111 Federal St. | Formerly Trans National Place (Winthrop Square) Part 2

tmac9wr said:
If I remember correctly, wasn't Belkin the only developer to even submit a proposal back in 2007? The fact that there are 7 other developers proposing a project on a significantly smaller piece of land is a testament to just how piping how the real estate is in Boston
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To be fair, Menino was asking for 1,000', not 750', but you're right.

Also, the Accordia design has me asking - how many great firms like SHoP don't ever get work in Boston because every other developer simply MUST go with CBT or Elkus? I don't hate everything those two do (and a lot of it is client-driven), but other cities are getting innovative buildings in part because local developers are willing to hire innovative firms. How did only the dark horses seem to do that here?

This is an issue where Walsh and the BRA could exert a bit of pressure, but given how much the principals at those firms probably donated to his election campaign...

EDIT: For those who are interested, the proposals are available here (big ZIP file, last one on the list):
http://www.bostonredevelopmentautho...il&utm_term=0_f1dd6a69b7-1bb0f7f02e-121422525

Further EDIT: Looking through the Accordia one first (alphabetical order), and I notice they're playing up the minority-owned business angle. Since they have legit financial backing and what is clearly the best design concept, that might be something. Also, there are more pictures, and they are gorgeous.

- Accordia and Ares are doing the D Street hotels, so their hotel component has some weight behind it. They'd partner with Starwood again, and the hotel would be have the "Le Meridien" brand on it.

- Accordia doesn't have a website because it's a brand new company, but the principals claim to have "over 60 years' experience", albeit in less-prominent projects. The other partners, though, have done some big stuff (Aloft/Element, Channel Center). CV Properties is actually a stakeholder in Accordia - it owns 45% of the company. The rest is owned by a private developer out of Jamaica Plain (Kirk Sykes). He claims to have a lot of African-American investors behind him.

- The public concourse element of the Accordia proposal would be designed by Hacin + Associates, a firm behind the SBW District Hall. That should play well with the BRA.

- See p.32 for the ground-level render. It actually looks a lot like the Rudolph building, and SHoP refers directly to not imposing on that building by setting the tower back.

- Rockpoint Group (which owns 75-101 Federal) is on the Accordia team. The ground-levels of the buildings would be fully integrated.

One last thing about Accordia's proposal: From looking at the (not very high-res) renderings, and given the motif on the left-hand side of the presentation pages, I think the idea is to have a facade made of boxes that stick out on one corner. SHoP has done that concept before. The coloration would presumably be applied to the extruded corners, so the tower would conceivably change color depending on the angle. Since all the full-color renders in the proposal are from one side, I'm not sure about that.
 
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Re: 111 Federal St. | Formerly Trans National Place (Winthrop Square) Part 2

Equilibria said:
- Rockpoint Group (which owns 75-101 Federal) is on the Accordia team. The ground-levels of the buildings would be fully integrated.
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So that would make it, 75-101-111 Federal then, right?


Just skimmed through the proposals, and I'm a big fan of what HYM is proposing, with the relocation of the Shrine. I'd like to see Accordia's tower with HYM's site plan.
 
Re: 111 Federal St. | Formerly Trans National Place (Winthrop Square) Part 2

bobthebuilder said:
So that would make it, 75-101-111 Federal then, right?


Just skimmed through the proposals, and I'm a big fan of what HYM is proposing, with the relocation of the Shrine. Give me Accordia's tower with HYM's site plan.
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Ultimately, yes. The address given in the document is 115 Winthrop Square, though.

I haven't read HYM's full document yet, but I can't say I disagree with that. I just don't trust them when the garage still stands at One Congress.
 
Re: 111 Federal St. | Formerly Trans National Place (Winthrop Square) Part 2

Equilibria said:
Ultimately, yes. The address given in the document is 115 Winthrop Square, though.
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I know, I knoooww. I just liked the aesthetic of the 101-111 better
 
Re: 111 Federal St. | Formerly Trans National Place (Winthrop Square) Part 2

Okay, time for Fallon. I didn't read the whole report as closely (we all know who Joe Fallon is). The tower looks pretty cool, actually. The line on the night render is actually a screen (copied on the smaller "tower" at a 90-degree offset) that shields half of what looks like a Seagram-style black-metal and clear-glass box.

The problem is, the thing is only 700' tall. Including mechanical. That's too short. Fallon didn't provide any skyline renders with the proposal, for obvious reasons: the tower would be too short to be really noticeable from the Harbor (actually, it was surprising to me in the Accorida package how little even a 750' tower sticks out from that angle).

Also, "retail concourse" is pretty rich for what it really is. Two big stores front both the interior hallway and Devonshire (CVS/Walgreens size), while a cafe fronts the hallway and Federal. I could see people cutting through there, and it's cool that it has no doors, but it's more of an alley than anything else.

EDIT: As for HYM, the site plan is the best part. In answer to my first question: They do have St. Anthony Shrine already on board for this. In addition to the new church, school, and priory, the plan also calls for table-topping all the streets between the two sites, which would effectively extend Downtown Crossing's pedestrian experience. All very nice.

The best part of HYM's document is actually the renders it has of other HYM projects. I hadn't seen the full site renders for One Congress with the Pelli tower, but they're in here, as are some ones for Warrior Ice Arena and Northpoint that might be new.

Problem is, I don't really trust this tower design. The only massing drawing they have for it is on p.13. It seems to have a taller (780') narrow segment, which I assume will be a blue glass sheet, with an elevator/service core behind. That elevator section is going to look like crap. I don't think they'll be cynical enough to actually just leave it blank like 45 Province, but it's not going to look nice, and another glass wall is not what the skyline needs. I'll reserve real judgment until I see an actual render, but... it's Elkus.
 
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Re: 111 Federal St. | Formerly Trans National Place (Winthrop Square) Part 2

Juuuuust throwing this out there, but the Copley Place Tower is Elkus. They can do good work.
 
Re: 111 Federal St. | Formerly Trans National Place (Winthrop Square) Part 2

datadyne007 said:
Juuuuust throwing this out there, but the Copley Place Tower is Elkus. They can do good work.
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Fair point. I guess the lower portion of the HYM design could curve like the setbacks in that building and look good. Still not sold vs. the Accordia SHoP proposal, though.

EDIT: I skipped Lend-Lease and Lincoln because the first doesn't really have anything interesting in it (no renders beyond the stacking plan) and Lincoln is half-baked. Lend-Lease is really selling this is as a copy of Toronto's Aura. Seems to be a mixed reception on that one.

Millennium's "Winthrop Tower" doesn't have any concavity to it when you view it in the document. It's just a boring glass box. Granted, it has wings on both long faces - the shield that you can see clearly in the render, and the matching one on the other side that you can see peeking out if you zoom in on the p.31 render. There seems to be a differently-colored glass in the void between the shield and the big box. No renders are ever shown from the North, there are no skyline renders, and the p.31 render is smaller and probably older.

Interestingly, the floor plans don't show a rectangular tower, but the stacking plan does. I suspect that accounts for the shields, but it's not obvious how the whole thing comes together. It would look rectangular from any direction, but if you look close in the render you can see a vertical line on the face where it bends away from the eye.

MP is much more sold on the retail concourse idea than Fallon is - they want stalls and small market fronts facing the pedestrians. They also extend the concept 40' up in a big atrium with a mezzanine. The ground level is the most appealing part of the plan.
 
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Re: 111 Federal St. | Formerly Trans National Place (Winthrop Square) Part 2

I find it hard to compare the proposals. They each describe their projects using different metrics. Some mention height, some number of floors, some just square feet. Even the Globe and Herald articles don't help. We need some sort of table listing: height, floor count, # residential units, # hotel rooms, office sqft, retail sqft, etc.
 
Re: 111 Federal St. | Formerly Trans National Place (Winthrop Square) Part 2

I'm combing through all the PDFs now and ripping images from them.

Slow day...
 
Re: 111 Federal St. | Formerly Trans National Place (Winthrop Square) Part 2

datadyne007 said:
I'm combing through all the PDFs now and ripping images from them.

Slow day...
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Thanks! Thought you might... :)

FWIW, Transnational and Trinity. Transnational's tower is pretty ugly, but the ground floor, which combines with the Rudolph Building, could be nice. It's a cool split-level atrium design. It actually becomes kind of pitiful how many times they try to work the word "innovation" in there, though. The "Innovators Walk of Stars" looks like the tackiest thing ever, since I suspect it's just going to honor whoever's company pays for a star on the floor. A feature that honors different types of "innovators" from MA might be nice - societal innovators like Harriet Beecher Stowe and Frederick Douglass, educational innovators like Horace Mann, etc. Also, I'm pretty sure Belkin hasn't actually asked the ICA and DeCordova if he can borrow their sculptures.

Trinity is pretty bad. They're the only ones to use pretty much the whole site footprint for the tower, which leads to both the complete encasement of the Rudolph building on two sides (which is a big problem) and also a silly-looking short section when they stop the narrow part along Federal twenty stories up (from the angle in the render, it looks like the building's... um... phallus).

The ground floor has zero public space - the only cut-through is vehicular access a la the Fenway projects. Trinity wants to make up for this by renovating Winthrop Square itself, and they sort of try to pretend that it's part of their site. The whole proposal is just a cynical, profit-maximizing, blocky mess.

In all - give me Accordia. It's the best tower by miles. If HYM can turn out a render that looks good, I might flip to them.
 
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Re: 111 Federal St. | Formerly Trans National Place (Winthrop Square) Part 2

Equilibria said:
Trinity is pretty bad. They're the only ones to use pretty much the whole site footprint for the tower, which leads to both the complete encasement of the Rudolph building on two sides (which is a big problem) and also a silly-looking short section when they stop the narrow part along Federal twenty stories up (from the angle in the render, it looks like the building's... um... phallus).
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So that's how the pregnant building got pregnant then.
 
Re: 111 Federal St. | Formerly Trans National Place (Winthrop Square) Part 2

It's kind of strange/interesting that one of the original advantages for Belkin was that he owned the Rudolph building, and therefore could know that down and create a "super site", but in the new plan, the Rudolph building stands.
 
Re: 111 Federal St. | Formerly Trans National Place (Winthrop Square) Part 2

tmac9wr said:
It's kind of strange/interesting that one of the original advantages for Belkin was that he owned the Rudolph building, and therefore could know that down and create a "super site", but in the new plan, the Rudolph building stands.
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There was a huuuuuge uproar about tearing down the Rudolph building. No self-respecting architect can call for its demolition. I'm glad it remains.
 
Re: 111 Federal St. | Formerly Trans National Place (Winthrop Square) Part 2

Transnational is ugly as someone else said....also they're not doing anything with their current building leading me to believe they have no advantage over others who do not own the adjacent site.

Accordia is my pick, I hope they light up the crown at night.

Also liked HYM but where else in the country does a public school exist in a financial district? I don't see how that location makes sense for a school...any school....maybe a daycare.
 
Re: 111 Federal St. | Formerly Trans National Place (Winthrop Square) Part 2

datadyne007 said:
There was a huuuuuge uproar about tearing down the Rudolph building. No self-respecting architect can call for its demolition. I'm glad it remains.
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Ah ok, I do remember the uproar but I didn't realize it was so loud.
 
Re: 111 Federal St. | Formerly Trans National Place (Winthrop Square) Part 2

617 said:
Transnational is ugly as someone else said....also they're not doing anything with their current building leading me to believe they have no advantage over others who do not own the adjacent site.

Accordia is my pick, I hope they light up the crown at night.

Also liked HYM but where else in the country does a public school exist in a financial district? I don't see how that location makes sense for a school...any school....maybe a daycare.
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There's a public school in 8 Spruce Street/New York by Gehry in Lower Manhattan, though I'm not sure if that immediate part of town (close to the Brooklyn Bridge) is included within NY's Financial District.
 
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