Winthrop Center | 115 Winthrop Square | Financial District

Re: 115 Winthrop Square | Financial District

115 Winthrop Sq on the agenda at today's BCDC meeting scheduled for ~8:00 pm.

http://www.bostonplans.org/news-calendar/calendar/2017/02/07/boston-civic-design-commission-meeting



....They will be facing some hard questions in the underwriting of their guarantees, and I think they are years away from being able to provide answers that are verifiably accurate.....

Before anyone starts answering "but insurance solves all!!", go read that Bloomberg article on the SF Millennium thread. Millennium almost certainly cannot show that they are certainly and adequately insured for their exposure. ...no one should call this done until they see it actually start. This could be the next Filene's stalled site. Wouldn't that be a weird irony?

At meeting #1 and #2, Project Chief Joe Larkin reassured the audience that the money available for this project was protected from the implications of the other project.

i'm incredulous as to how this can be so, as i imagine most of you are.
 
Re: 115 Winthrop Square | Financial District

i'm incredulous as to how this can be so, as i imagine most of you are.

The whole point of incorporation is limited liability. Every major company in every industry is actually a bundle of dozens and dozens of incorporated legal entities among which assets and liabilities are distributed to optimize exposure to risk and taxation (among other things).

Having done no research - i fully expect that there is an on-paper corporation called 'MP SF Liabililty Vehicle Inc." or something similar that is going to be holding the bag here - and which is separated by a gigantic legal firewall from everything else that we have in mind when we say 'Millenium Partners'.

tl;dr - corporations are people; specifically people with valuable legal privileges
 
Re: 115 Winthrop Square | Financial District

Presenting this without an architectural re-design is ballsy. Let's see how it pays off.
 
Re: 115 Winthrop Square | Financial District

The whole point of incorporation is limited liability. Every major company in every industry is actually a bundle of dozens and dozens of incorporated legal entities among which assets and liabilities are distributed to optimize exposure to risk and taxation (among other things).

Having done no research - i fully expect that there is an on-paper corporation called 'MP SF Liabililty Vehicle Inc." or something similar that is going to be holding the bag here - and which is separated by a gigantic legal firewall from everything else that we have in mind when we say 'Millenium Partners'.

tl;dr - corporations are people; specifically people with valuable legal privileges

Your post is entirely accurate but your conclusion reaches too far. There is no such thing as a firewall big enough to protect a firm from every possible scenario. To take just one glaring example: Lehman Brothers. Lehman had vastly more firewalling of the sorts you describe than Millennium Partners, by an enormous margin. And vastly deeper pockets, too. Lehman got vaporized over the course of one weekend. No one is safe from all risks, limited liability laws are not a perfect panacea.

Millennium is certainly not facing a risk as staggering as what Lehman backed itself into. But Millennium is certainly nowhere nearly as big either. I'm confident they've done very professional and extensive firewalling between that SF tower and their Winthrop project. My point is that the problems in SF are of a dramatically larger potential than is usual for a real estate project, and the uncertainties of where the liabilities will fall are also quite abnormal.

Millennium Partners cannot at this point define their risk in SF. The media is reporting a collective pool of insurance coverage in the $150M - $200M range, but with possible exclusions that put much of that $150M out of play. Cost of problem has not been defined. This is a case where those carefully built firewalls could be breached (and not just Millennium).

Maybe they come out fine. If I were on the investment committee at either a lender or equity investor looking at the Winthrop sq project, there'd be some hard questions for the loan officer or acquisitions manager.

ETA: on the first pass, I made this sound like a legal thing mainly. Well it clearly is all tied up in legal issues. But it's also a question of how much protection Millennium obtains for each deal behind each firewall. There's no such thing as limitless insurance coverage, that would carry limitless costs. Each firewall can be breached if the coverage for that deal's risk gets exceeded. That's what is more clearly possible on their SF deal: the risk burning through the firewall. It's a fairly uncommon thing to see, but not at all impossible, and not as rare as many think it is.
 
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Re: 115 Winthrop Square | Financial District

I updated the sinking tower thread in the General architecture forum, with a link to a columnists' story in the Feb 7 San Francisco Chronicle.

A key point in the story is that if Millennium fraudulently sold condominiums (by not telling prospective buyers that the building was sinking, and the allegation is that Millennium knew it was sinking when marketing and selling units, then Millenniums' insurance policies don't cover Millennium's liability for design/construction defects (if Millennium found liable, in whole or in part). If its determined that fraud occurred, the $100 million insurance coverage that Millennium has on the building is void.
 
Re: 115 Winthrop Square | Financial District

,..... If its determined that fraud occurred, the $100 million insurance coverage that Millennium has on the building is void.

And if that happened - big giant emphasis on IF - then that would be a $100M firewall suddenly dropping to a $0 firewall. They could try declaring bankruptcy with the specific entity that did the SF tower. Might work to firewall it, might not.

Curious detail in the article you linked to: some individual plaintiff condo owners have alleged fraud, while the homeowner's association has not alleged fraud, presumably to avoid nullifying the insurance. That'll get confusing in court.
 
Re: 115 Winthrop Square | Financial District

Meeting just got started moments ago.

Kinda late on a very busy night.
 
Re: 115 Winthrop Square | Financial District

Renders in the pnf have been 750'.

Apparently, they listened to you ladies and gentlemen that said let's light the rooftops better.

The mechanical screen will be lit well enough to actually see!
 
Re: 115 Winthrop Square | Financial District

And if that happened - big giant emphasis on IF - then that would be a $100M firewall suddenly dropping to a $0 firewall. They could try declaring bankruptcy with the specific entity that did the SF tower. Might work to firewall it, might not.

Curious detail in the article you linked to: some individual plaintiff condo owners have alleged fraud, while the homeowner's association has not alleged fraud, presumably to avoid nullifying the insurance. That'll get confusing in court.

For the lawyers, see p. 6 of the condo owners complaint, in which they seek to go after MP itself, as well as two principals of MP by name, and several Does who will be identified subsequently.

https://media.bizj.us/view/img/10296296/finalsignedcmpt.pdf

The attorney filing the complaint is also a co-plaintiff. The attorney is primarily a patent. intellectual property litigator, but he does have an undergraduate engineering degree.
 
Re: 115 Winthrop Square | Financial District

What happened at the meeting?

Any pics of the lit crown?
 
Re: 115 Winthrop Square | Financial District

ETA: on the first pass, I made this sound like a legal thing mainly. Well it clearly is all tied up in legal issues. But it's also a question of how much protection Millennium obtains for each deal behind each firewall. There's no such thing as limitless insurance coverage, that would carry limitless costs. Each firewall can be breached if the coverage for that deal's risk gets exceeded. That's what is more clearly possible on their SF deal: the risk burning through the firewall. It's a fairly uncommon thing to see, but not at all impossible, and not as rare as many think it is.

I agree, and this is exactly why I stated in the Building Sinking thread several months ago that if Millennium were handling this more competently, they would immediately commence engineering and construction work to underpin the tower. I roughly guesstimated this at $200mil. Why? Because, that would lock down a near-certain cost obligation and show everyone that they were taking responsibility. Is $200mil unattractive for MP? Sure is. But a certainty of $200mil is a much better proposition than an uncertain $0 - infinity. And it's looking more and more each day like this will be closer to infinity. I get it, they're playing the game (insurance, firewalls, bankruptcy protection, etc etc)...but I guarantee that if they fronted the $200mil, they would get a large portion of it back through insurance and through settlements with other entities (the engineering firm, etc.). This will only get worse if they let it fester over time, and the cost hit will only get more uncertain over time - the right thing to do is the front the money and lock down the uncertainty. Also, condo values will almost immediately stabilize if they do this, so its a win-win for everyone and it should quell the hostility of the condo owners.
 
Re: 115 Winthrop Square | Financial District

The whole point of incorporation is limited liability...

i had an opportunity to speak to MP...

Pardon me; i changed 'dozens' to 'a number of.'

The whole point of incorporation is limited liability. Every major company in every industry is to bundle [a number of] incorporated legal entities among which assets and liabilities are distributed to optimize exposure to risk...

...i fully expect that there is an on-paper corporation called 'MP SF Liabililty Vehicle Inc." or something similar that is going to be holding the bag here - and which is separated by a gigantic legal firewall from everything else that we have in mind when we say 'Millenium Partners'.

balls on accurate.

Piles + arches or trusses can be installed.

the ether said:
Jane, you ignorant slut.

now; wait and study.

later (possibly); micropiles.



What happened at the meeting?

Any pics of the lit crown?

I second that! Can't wait to see it!

No pics of the lit screen. but the lighting will be prominent, and run along each of the vertical ribs at the mechanical penthouse.

 
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Re: 115 Winthrop Square | Financial District

i had an opportunity to speak to MP...

Pardon me; i changed 'dozens' to 'a number of.'



balls on accurate.





now; wait and study.

later (possibly); micropiles.







No pics of the lit screen. but the lighting will be prominent, and run along each of the vertical ribs at the mechanical penthouse.

Beautiful. Where'd you get that top rendering?
 
Re: 115 Winthrop Square | Financial District

This must be built. Starting to love it. Need new renders though, come on Millennium.
 

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