You should have kept reading. The "point" was in the next paragraph which I've helpfully quoted for you...
Few people care about the Great Hall. Lets build the thing and call it a day.
Winthrop Center | 115 Winthrop Square | Financial District
- Thread starter vanshnookenraggen
- Start date
You should have kept reading. The "point" was in the next paragraph which I've helpfully quoted for you...
Few people care about the Great Hall. Lets build the thing and call it a day.
KriterionBOS
Active Member
- Joined
- Mar 18, 2018
- Messages
- 179
- Reaction score
- 61
Well NYC and Boston are the two largest cities north of NJ...there is also some form of rivalry between the two as well. Of course outside of LA and possibly Chicago, no city is a virtual equal of NYC but both Boston and NYC are elite east coast cities. In many regards, Boston is a minature version of NYC in a way Chicago/LA/SF (not east coast), Philadelphia/DC (lack of the
"big city vibe") aren't. So its a valid comparison, albeit in a cute little-brotherly way.
A lot of posters here have even remarked that Boston is overall the most (NYC-ish) city in American, outside of NYC itself.
Below: BPDA and Millennium's bait-and-switch of January 2018, following 1.5 years of dog and pony shows.
Worth noting that in January 2018, while media headlines (and scores of comments by Tosh33/Odurandina) focused on a tower height haircut of 10%, the project increased in size to 1.6 msf.
Below: Commitments to the Great Hall in original bid. Safe to assume the commitments to The Connector are a fraction of what was stated during the public process.
Worth noting that in January 2018, while media headlines (and scores of comments by Tosh33/Odurandina) focused on a tower height haircut of 10%, the project increased in size to 1.6 msf.
Below: Commitments to the Great Hall in original bid. Safe to assume the commitments to The Connector are a fraction of what was stated during the public process.
Java King
Active Member
- Joined
- Apr 6, 2007
- Messages
- 961
- Reaction score
- 1,976
The building is a great addition overall to Boston, but it makes me sad that we could have had a smaller version of this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brookfield_Place_(Toronto)#/media/File:Brookfield_Pl._1_06.11.04.jpg
Maybe with Marche too? I miss Marche at the Prudential Center. There is one in the atrium of this building in Toronto.
Maybe with Marche too? I miss Marche at the Prudential Center. There is one in the atrium of this building in Toronto.
HalcyonEra
Active Member
- Joined
- Mar 6, 2012
- Messages
- 410
- Reaction score
- 7
Not to go off-topic but you seem a bit parochial here in your defense. Philly is 2x the size of Boston. If any place is a miniature version of NYC, it's Philly. Boston is like a big-small town, especially when comparing big city vibes. World Class, yes, Boston is that; big city, not so much. Little brother, yes, without a doubt.
There has been a "pound for pound" debate in Boston vs Philly and Philly is only in the range of 1.1-1.2 times bigger, not twice the size. We added in Boston's surrounding cities until the square mileage was equal. It's disingenuous to leave cities like Cambridge and Somerville out of the Boston calculation when it's one continuous urban area.
With that said, they both remind me of a baby New York. Philly is more like baby midtown, with the grid layout. Boston is more like baby downtown NYC. Then Providence is a baby Boston.
Anyone remember the Philly promotional ads running on TV a few years ago?
"Its like a mini New York!"
I hear you. I am very careful about mentioning Tokyo or drawing any comparisons between Boston (or America in general) and Tokyo (or Japan in general). People take it as bragging or necessarily putting Boston / America down.
I've visited this forum essentially every day since 2006 and have less than 200 posts.
We had one longtime member mention in another thread that he has visited lots of pedestrian-only high streets throughout the English-speaking world, and another longtime member immediately shot him down for being priveleged. WTF is that?
HalcyonEra
Active Member
- Joined
- Mar 6, 2012
- Messages
- 410
- Reaction score
- 7
I recall the discussion, but to me a city of 1.5M vs 685K and an MSA of 6M vs. 4.8M is a significant difference. That's a lot of people. I was referring more to the "lack of a big city vibe" comment, as I spend a lot of time there, and other than NYC and Chicago, to me, it retains that vibe and then some.
But I digress, the new Winthrop lobby still sucks ass. Maybe the great hall did as well, but at least it had a majestic feeling to it rather than a renovated office lobby in Waltham feel.
Below: BPDA and Millennium's bait-and-switch of January 2018, following 1.5 years of dog and pony shows.
Worth noting that in January 2018, while media headlines (and scores of comments by Tosh33/Odurandina) focused on a tower height haircut of 10%, the project increased in size to 1.6 msf.
Below: Commitments to the Great Hall in original bid. Safe to assume the commitments to The Connector are a fraction of what was stated during the public process.
Yeah, but it's good enough for Rover, so ya know, 'just call it a day'!
Some people are simply fans of VE.
Rumor has it that old Bobbie Burns, the wandering bard of Winthrop Sq., patron to pigeons and loitering bike messengers alike, was so disgusted upon finding out that the Great Hall is being transmogrified into the Connector that he is decamping for the rustic splendors of the Fenway, where nary an office tower is proposed and shadow controversies are just whispers floating on the gentle summer breeze. In a fit of pique, he's supposedly taking his dog, too.
Equilibria
Senior Member
- Joined
- May 6, 2007
- Messages
- 6,959
- Reaction score
- 8,038
I'd day some of us have lives and don't have a ton of time to worry about dumb shit like this that affects almost no one. However, if you'd like to form a citizens group ("Save The Great Hall"???) and press the developer and city to build as originally envisioned then I wish you well in your endeavors. In fact, if I ever see concerned citizens with pitchforks and torches protesting by the construction site, I will post those pictures as I walk by there every day on my way to work.
In the meantime, just build the F'ing thing, Great Hall or Great Corridor be damned!
Beton Brut
Senior Member
- Joined
- May 25, 2006
- Messages
- 4,382
- Reaction score
- 335
^ For those of us who are less sanguine on the City's "public space" requirement for this project, can you help us understand why a retail corridor that can be repurposed as a yoga studio, fashion runway, or tchotchke bazaar presents real value for the average Bostonian?
I understand that Millennium is writing the City a check for $153M, and that they'll fully abide by the mandated 13% affordable housing requirement. I'm asking about this space as currently presented. Why's it awesome? Why should I be excited? Why should anyone pat Marty Walsh, the City Council, and the BPDA/BCDC on the back for this?
I understand that Millennium is writing the City a check for $153M, and that they'll fully abide by the mandated 13% affordable housing requirement. I'm asking about this space as currently presented. Why's it awesome? Why should I be excited? Why should anyone pat Marty Walsh, the City Council, and the BPDA/BCDC on the back for this?
Last edited:
KriterionBOS
Active Member
- Joined
- Mar 18, 2018
- Messages
- 179
- Reaction score
- 61
I'll try to clarify what I meant. Everyone knows NYC's stats (biggest, most densely populated, most skyscrapers, tallest skyline, etc). The city rarely ever sleeps en masse.
My experiences in Boston and Philly are admittedly sparse (spent 3 days in Boston, 1 in Philly) but I've lived in Chicago and spent a few months in Manhattan.
The Chicago Loop dies after 6 or 7 pm on a weekday - you will hardly see a soul unless you're at the Mag Mile on Michigan Ave.
I was walking around downtown Philly (near the Amtrak station...30th street, is it???) on a Friday afternoon and it was pretty dead. It was also less densely built than Boston's financial district.
Boston, I drove around downtown on a weekday from 5 pm onwards. Yes, around 7pm it was pretty dead, but the same thing happens in Chicago - which is a much larger city. Hung out in the Back Bay on a Saturday and it was really busy around Newbury and Huntington as well as the core area around Berkley St. The Back Bay could have been a neighborhood in Brooklyn or Queens.
Yes Philly has a slightly larger population (as mentioned above, you include Cambridge, Somerville, Medford, Newton, Quincy, etc and Boston's population would be significantly closer to Philly's) but the MSA pop's are not that different 6M vs 5M. Boston actually has a bigger CSA.
Overall size - Philly
Population density - Boston
# of skyscrapers - Boston (though Philly's are taller)
BOS vs PHI airports - Boston (both by # of pax and # foreign airlines)
So I think its a lot more even than people might think. Philly just has a few more people, but I don't think it "feels" bigger than Boston.
The only cities that "feel" noticeably bigger than Boston would be NYC, Chicago, Miami, LA. I haven't been to Houston or SF but I would put them on the list. Again, while DC feels big, it doesn't have the same feel as Boston due to its lack of tall buildings and greater degree of sprawl. Even Atlanta doesn't "feel" as big despite being slightly larger in terms of MSA population.
HenryAlan
Senior Member
- Joined
- Dec 15, 2009
- Messages
- 3,901
- Reaction score
- 3,755
You have no reason to be excited when focusing your vision on that one piece of the project. I would argue that piece is not for you. Yes, maybe the Great Hall would have been for you. That was certainly the theory behind it. But do you believe it would have functioned as indicated in the renders? I don't. I think it was a pretty idea that would have ended up being a needlessly vast pedestrian passageway. I think the disconnect between people not bothered by the formalized change and those strongly bothered by it is whether we ever had expectations that matched the articulated vision.
Beton Brut
Senior Member
- Joined
- May 25, 2006
- Messages
- 4,382
- Reaction score
- 335
Henry, you and I are on the same page. The very idea that the City signed off on this farcical response to a "public amenity" requirement in the RFP is a preposterous intellectual insult. Clearly, a bad/dumb "ask" on the City's part has lead to a bad/dumb response from the Millennium. As my old man says, "Don't piss in my ear and tell me it's raining."
My $0.2
Great hall was definitly better but honestly this looks fine...for what it is. Let’s not compare this to the galleria in Milan etc bc they’re worlds apart. I’m not sure if Marty deserves a pat on the back but $150M is very exciting for the city. I also applaud Marty for letting Boston rise so to speak. He’s been great imo.
Lastly, Philly is a dump outside of rittenhouse sq. It also doesn’t feel like a major city imo...more second tier. DC is pretty cool but I agree it feels smaller bc it’s squat. Chicago is awesome, feels big, tall, but Boston is just as vibrant if not more so...and much safer. Miami is great but can’t be compared with Boston. It feels mid size. LA feels mid size to me as well, the city part anyway. Ny is in a league of its own.
Great hall was definitly better but honestly this looks fine...for what it is. Let’s not compare this to the galleria in Milan etc bc they’re worlds apart. I’m not sure if Marty deserves a pat on the back but $150M is very exciting for the city. I also applaud Marty for letting Boston rise so to speak. He’s been great imo.
Lastly, Philly is a dump outside of rittenhouse sq. It also doesn’t feel like a major city imo...more second tier. DC is pretty cool but I agree it feels smaller bc it’s squat. Chicago is awesome, feels big, tall, but Boston is just as vibrant if not more so...and much safer. Miami is great but can’t be compared with Boston. It feels mid size. LA feels mid size to me as well, the city part anyway. Ny is in a league of its own.
odurandina
Senior Member
- Joined
- Dec 1, 2015
- Messages
- 5,328
- Reaction score
- 265
The whole Chicago Northside is wonderful, urban USA. Like Boston supersized. They are also fortunate in having the scale and space for a couple of rows of 450~500' set back between Lakeshore Blvd & Clark St near Fullerton. Like Boston, Philly, or NJ across the Hudson, you could insert any of them as a 6th borough of NYC.