The St Regis Residences (former Whiskey Priest site) | 150 Seaport Blvd | Seaport

Re: Whiskey Priest/Atlantic Beer Garden Redevelopment | 150 Seaport Blvd | Seaport

October surprise.....

October surprise.
 
Re: Whiskey Priest/Atlantic Beer Garden Redevelopment | 150 Seaport Blvd | Seaport

The rules are just different for different players concerning Chap 91.

This is a fact because if they abided by the Chap 91 law since 1800's we would not have Harbor Garage in the first place.

There is no such fact.

The provisions of Chapter 91 have been changed several times by the Massachusetts legislature over the years, most particularly beginning nearly 40 years ago. (After Harbor Towers and the HT garage were already built.) In any event, all the changes to Chapter 91 were in place at the time your favorite developer bought the HT garage.

The need for changes to Chapter 91 was brought about because the highest court in Massachusetts ruled, in the case of Lewis Wharf, that the owners did not own title to the tidal land on which Lewis Wharf was built. Title was contingent on the owners of the wharf engaging in trade and commerce.

As it happens, it would seem the decision in the Lewis Wharf case threw into question whether the HT (and the BRA (parking lot) before HT was built) had title, under the law at the time, to the land on which HT (and the garage) was built.

See:
Boston Waterfront Development Corporation v. Commonwealth
http://masscases.com/cases/sjc/378/378mass629.html
 
Re: Whiskey Priest/Atlantic Beer Garden Redevelopment | 150 Seaport Blvd | Seaport

This might not be the board to start a debate on this.

But the original proposal for Harbor Towers was for 3rd Tower in the garage spot--(Which in Theory would have left gaps of space to access the Waterfront.)
Harbor Garage does not So how did the BRA/Commonwealth give the GREENLIGHT for this type of Development on the Waterfront with Chap 91?
 
Re: Whiskey Priest/Atlantic Beer Garden Redevelopment | 150 Seaport Blvd | Seaport

https://youtu.be/452XjnaHr1A?t=19

AAEAAQAAAAAAAAI8AAAAJGMzYjc1YjczLWQ2NTMtNDU2Ny1hODU0LWIzMjNmOTQ3N2I4NA.png
 
Re: Whiskey Priest/Atlantic Beer Garden Redevelopment | 150 Seaport Blvd | Seaport

Because as far as I can tell based on what others have posted the open space requirements have been changed over the years and when these were built they met that requirement. Stellar even posted a link to a court case related to this question. But maybe you should just realize it is too late and the garage was not found to violate Chap. 91 when it was proposed and we will just have to wait for someone to find a way to make redevelopment feasible to remove the garage.
 
Re: Whiskey Priest/Atlantic Beer Garden Redevelopment | 150 Seaport Blvd | Seaport

Simply for the record, and to correct another erroneous claim:

the original plan for the Harbor Towers called for three stacks of rental units, plus a parking garage, done in the Brutalist style of the day: all raw concrete and hard angles. (Peter Forbes, an architect who lived in the towers in the mid-’90s before moving to Florence, Italy, points out that such a design was considered a “heroic gesture” in the late 1960s, an effort to “get away from the steel and glass skyscraper of the ’50s, which people were beginning to feel was cold and impersonal.”) In order to free up the space for the project, the BRA also allowed the historic India Wharf Building to be demolished. “In retrospect,” writes Cobb, the towers’ architect, “[that move] was arguably a mistake.”

Of course, there were limits to how big a chance the developers would take. Because they couldn’t be certain anyone would want to live out in the grubby hinterland that was the waterfront, three towers eventually became two, with a pool installed where the third was to have stood.
http://www.bostonmagazine.com/2008/01/the-harbor-towers-towering-contradictions/
 
Re: Whiskey Priest/Atlantic Beer Garden Redevelopment | 150 Seaport Blvd | Seaport

Because as far as I can tell based on what others have posted the open space requirements have been changed over the years and when these were built they met that requirement. Stellar even posted a link to a court case related to this question. But maybe you should just realize it is too late and the garage was not found to violate Chap. 91 when it was proposed and we will just have to wait for someone to find a way to make redevelopment feasible to remove the garage.

So if the current garage was not found to violate Chap. 91 how does chiofaro proposals violate Chap 91? It does not make sense.
 
Re: Whiskey Priest/Atlantic Beer Garden Redevelopment | 150 Seaport Blvd | Seaport

So if the current garage was not found to violate Chap. 91 how does chiofaro proposals violate Chap 91? It does not make sense.

It makes all the sense in the word if you bothered to read any of the replies directly to this same question you have previously asked at least a dozen times.

The verbiage has been amended in the years since the 19th century. It is not static. The S's in the text don't all still look like F's.
 
Re: Whiskey Priest/Atlantic Beer Garden Redevelopment | 150 Seaport Blvd | Seaport

The verbiage has been amended in the years since the 19th century. It is not static. The S's in the text don't all still look like F's.

It needs to be amended again. The open-space standards shouldn't be the same for a proposal that is being built on actual, existing open-space vs. one that is replacing a structure that would violate those requirements today.

In this case, Chapter 91 is essentially pretending that the garage doesn't exist. But it does, and any improvement on the area should be encouraged. I think a fair fix would be to meet a developer halfway between what is required for a structure built on open space under Chapter 91, and the open space currently allotted by the existing development.

Thus, if you need 40% open space under Chapter 91, but the current structure only provides 10% open space, the new replacement structure would need to provide a minimum of 25% to meet the amendment's requirements. A win-win for both the city and the developer.

Of course, our planning departments are way too shortsighted for this type of compromise solution.
 
Re: Whiskey Priest/Atlantic Beer Garden Redevelopment | 150 Seaport Blvd | Seaport

Side topic cuz i never do that but what kind of sea wall is required for these new properties that are so close to the water? i'm asking in conjunction with Pier 4, J hook site and the Harbor Garage. (i figured i'd ask since you are having so much fun already).
 
Re: Whiskey Priest/Atlantic Beer Garden Redevelopment | 150 Seaport Blvd | Seaport

It needs to be amended again. The open-space standards shouldn't be the same for a proposal that is being built on actual, existing open-space vs. one that is replacing a structure that would violate those requirements today.

In this case, Chapter 91 is essentially pretending that the garage doesn't exist. But it does, and any improvement on the area should be encouraged. I think a fair fix would be to meet a developer halfway between what is required for a structure built on open space under Chapter 91, and the open space currently allotted by the existing development.

Thus, if you need 40% open space under Chapter 91, but the current structure only provides 10% open space, the new replacement structure would need to provide a minimum of 25% to meet the amendment's requirements. A win-win for both the city and the developer.

Of course, our planning departments are way too shortsighted for this type of compromise solution.

On this I agree 100%. There are betterments to an area, that while they may not meet the letter of the law, they improve something that doesn't come close to meeting the law. This happens all the time, and some on here want to think because something is written in black and white, that compromises aren't real options.

The garage and Whiskey Priest both offer way below required levels of open space and access to the waterfront. Both of the proposed replacements to these offer more of each of these criteria.

The all or nothing mentality helps no one. If we could get a better development that helps add housing, better street interaction, better access to the harbor, and more open space..... that sounds like a win all around. Not having a dusty old document dusted off and saying 'no you must meet every requirement'. Forcing developers to keep the low rises that fully block access to the harbor with little to no open space, and do not fully achieve a locations potential is not just short sighted, but detrimental to the urban environement they are supposedly protecting.

It's all back asswards.
My comment above is about stop asking the same stupid questions that have already been answered. You can change the past. But, we should be changing the future for the better.
 
Re: Whiskey Priest/Atlantic Beer Garden Redevelopment | 150 Seaport Blvd | Seaport

In this case, Chapter 91 is essentially pretending that the garage doesn't exist.

Thank you this is what I was not getting. Chap 91 is not recognizing that the current structures are already blocking the Harbor access from making the area better access for the public in the first place.

THIS IS WHY THE LAW DOESN'T MAKE SENSE (It doesn't recognize that a current structure is blocking the access to the water)

You are calling me stupid. How stupid is the planning dept of the city.
 
Re: Whiskey Priest/Atlantic Beer Garden Redevelopment | 150 Seaport Blvd | Seaport

Thank you this is what I was not getting. Chap 91 is not recognizing that the current structures are already blocking the Harbor access from making the area better access for the public in the first place.

THIS IS WHY THE LAW DOESN'T MAKE SENSE (It doesn't recognize that a current structure is blocking the access to the water)

You are calling me stupid. How stupid is the planning dept of the city.

Nope. Just your questions. And, they only become stupid when they have previously been answered.
I don't particularly think you're stupid. You just live up to the name well.
Anyone who handles firearms will tell you that shooting from the hip rarely hit the target.

Point. Aim. Fire.

The planning dept. is stupid, but not so much in this case. My understanding is that Chap. 91 is a Commonwealth law, and not a Boston one. The Commonwealth is not as concerned as we are about a couple acres in the 10,555 square miles that make up Massachusetts. The BRA is not so much at fault here.

http://www.mass.gov/eea/agencies/ma...-the-massachusetts-public-waterfront-act.html
 
Re: Whiskey Priest/Atlantic Beer Garden Redevelopment | 150 Seaport Blvd | Seaport

Side topic cuz i never do that but what kind of sea wall is required for these new properties that are so close to the water? i'm asking in conjunction with Pier 4, J hook site and the Harbor Garage. (i figured i'd ask since you are having so much fun already).

Re: Whiskey Priest

The ground floor consisting of the residential entry, restaurant space and back of house facilities will occupy an area that is 18’ floor to floor, this height is intended to allow a future modification to raise the ground floor elevation up to 4 feet above the current building design of Boston City Base
elevation of 18.5’. In addition, outdoor waterfront areas will be designed to be raised in conjunction with any interior floor rises, as these exterior areas will be primarily on pile-supported piers and require periodic replacement as a part of regular maintenance.

The base building structure and below grade parking garage will be designed with saltwater resistant rebar and water proofed envelope that can be extended upward to the height of the first level above grade. The primary structural slab at the ground floor will also be designed to support a
secondary framing system of knee walls and saltwater resistant supports to allow the construction of a new raised entry-level elevation in the future. This will provide 14’ floor-to-floor dimensions on both the future ground floor and second level restaurant spaces.

Primary mechanical systems will be designed as Modular/flexible infrastructure that can be modified and/or supplemented as required to meet future building needs. All Critical MEP/FP systems are being installed above the FEMA flood elevation to facilitate operability during flood conditions. Electrical transformers are being installed on a waterproofed elevated platform, above the FEMA flood elevation, to facilitate operability during flood conditions. Backflow prevention valves will be placed on storm system outlets to prevent the injection of a flood surcharge into the building interior. Integrated floodgates will be provided at that entrance of the garage to prevent water from entering and elevator machine rooms will be located at the top of the shaft above the current and future sea levels.
 
Re: Whiskey Priest/Atlantic Beer Garden Redevelopment | 150 Seaport Blvd | Seaport

Now the Aquarium Garage squabbling has taken over this thread as well. Sigh...
 
Re: Whiskey Priest/Atlantic Beer Garden Redevelopment | 150 Seaport Blvd | Seaport

Now that we have a better understanding of the Chap 91:

What does the developer have to do for Whiskey Priest/Atlantic Beer Garden to make this work?
 
Re: Whiskey Priest/Atlantic Beer Garden Redevelopment | 150 Seaport Blvd | Seaport

Make the dock fatter, reclaim part of the Atlantic Ocean, etc just like he plans.

i moved my post to the soon-to-be-deleted thread.
 
Re: Whiskey Priest/Atlantic Beer Garden Redevelopment | 150 Seaport Blvd | Seaport

Why THE FUCK are you guys talking about the Harbor Towers and the Aquarium garage again?
 
Re: Whiskey Priest/Atlantic Beer Garden Redevelopment | 150 Seaport Blvd | Seaport

Why THE FUCK are you guys talking about the Harbor Towers and the Aquarium garage again?

Now the Aquarium Garage squabbling has taken over this thread as well. Sigh...


Both projects are similarly affected by the misguided Chapter 91. Both are replacing structures that would violate this statute if built today. It's more of a Chapter 91 discussion, and amending it to give leniency to buildings that aren't being built on existing open space.
 
Re: Whiskey Priest/Atlantic Beer Garden Redevelopment | 150 Seaport Blvd | Seaport

Dear Suffolk,

In the Globe Article referencing this development they reference Harbor Garage has having a similar problem with CHAP 91 law. Due to my lack of knowledge in this area I called upon my fellow archbostonians like Stellafun, SeamusMcfly to help explain my stupidity concerning this Commonwealth Law.

And this is HOW HARBOR GARAGE took over.
Also a special thanks to DZH22 actually explaining how the law is backwards especially concerning structures already built.

Sincerely
TheRifleman
 

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