New Red and Orange Line Cars

Seashore has just about every old 2-car set form the rapid transit lines of the T, including some of the old buses. I've visited them twice.

Yep. This is all the Boston stuff they've got in their collection: https://www.trolleymuseum.org/collection/roster2.php?geo=boston&type=all&sort=railway&format=images.

Only about 3-1/2 miles from the new summer-only Downeaster stop at Kennebunk that's opening either next year or 2018 depending on whether they can finish construction in time to catch the tail end of next season. The town is mulling ideas for a shuttle bus around local attractions which *might* make the museum fully transit-accessible, but no firm plans for that as of yet.
 
Is it the case that the T has now ordered enough Red Line cars for three minute headways as long as no Arlington extension happens?

How does Orange Line car supply work out if a West Roxbury extension happens?

I think California is probably being smarter than Massachusetts in deciding to have Proterra and Greenpower Bus build factories in California, which I suspect will have pretty consistent demand from year to year, and to send California's more intermittent subway car orders to another state. If we want consistent transit vehicle manufacturing jobs in western Massachusetts, we should be trying to get a battery bus manufacturing facility built in Massachusetts.
 
???

What on earth relevance do battery buses have to manufacture of subway cars? The production facilities for each mode aren't even remotely the same. Look at who the leading bus manufacturers are worldwide vs. railcar manufacturers. There's hardly any overlap. Those companies don't play in the same procurement pool at all.
 
CRRC Springfield has also won a 64-car order for subway cars (Red/Purple) from LA Metro worth $179m (with an option for 218 more, presumably worth about another $500m)

So, yes, the dirigiste Patrick/Legislature deal that mandated a factory in Springfield appears to be working, at least as far as getting an order from a second transit authority. So we're at least as far along as SEPTA/Pennsylvania were in madating Rotem to build in Philly and luring MBTA CR to order the 1800/800 series double deckers from Rotem. Which is to say that if component-installation quality sucks (as it did in Rotem/Philly) all is still lost.

Meanwhile, CRRC Springfield has competition from CRRC Chicago will be building* 846 new El cars for $1.3b, unless Bombardier gets the contract overturned.

*As in Boston, CRRC won the Chicago deal by underpricing the competition by $239m and with the offer of an in-state $120m assembly plant (on the south side of Chicago), despite Bombardier's bid having outscored CRRC on points 3,667 to 2,869 on a 5,000 point scale.
 
Is it the case that the T has now ordered enough Red Line cars for three minute headways as long as no Arlington extension happens?

How does Orange Line car supply work out if a West Roxbury extension happens?

No need to worry, neither line will be extended before these new cars are on the verge of retirement.
 
The folks in West Roxbury will allow a second gas line before they allow the Orange Line. :/
 
Meanwhile, the folks in Roslindale wouldn't mind getting just a one mile extension, something the new car order could easily accommodate.
 
Does only building Orange Line to Roslindale Village actually save any money vs Orange Line to West Roxbury if the former involves building a third track from Forest Hills to Roslindale Village that would be unneeded in the latter scenario?

And if the goal is to get the Needham Line trains off the NEC mainline, is not building to West Roxbury actually a viable long term option at all?
 
Does only building Orange Line to Roslindale Village actually save any money vs Orange Line to West Roxbury if the former involves building a third track from Forest Hills to Roslindale Village that would be unneeded in the latter scenario?

And if the goal is to get the Needham Line trains off the NEC mainline, is not building to West Roxbury actually a viable long term option at all?

The ROW is already 3 tracks wide to Rozzie, and FH-Rozzie is over a third the total distance to W. Rox at only +1 stations. No major earth-moving necessary. The reason for doing that station is more related to Forest Hills bus terminal's congestion than the NEC. It's a down payment on eventually completing to W. Rox, but the reason for front-loading it is for taming the extreme bus congestion at Forest Hills. Currently you have 9 separate bus routes duplicating themselves between FH-Rozzie Sq. down Washington St. Bunching problems galore with the buses making those schedules unreliable, and giant crushes of the Orange Line platform when those duplicating bunched buses take a big dump of transferees all at once. If you've ever stood on the Forest Hills platform at rush as those swells of bus transferees come in you know full well that the station can't absorb any more overload.

Adding the Rozzie +1 lets you load-spread 40-50% of those 9 duplicating bus routes to loop at a different terminal. That in turn substantially shortens travel times on routes like the 30, 35, 36, 37 while giving lower Washington a great big enema so its remaining routes no longer bunch so badly and have room to increase their frequencies. It's a bus-centric solve, and that's part of the reason why Rozzie's advocacy for it is much higher than W. Rox's. W. Rox won't have a choice when the NEC has to be reckoned with, but Forest Hills + Rozzie need this bad today. Those transit-dependent riders fear for their future when FH terminal hits the point of complete non-functioning oversaturation too many hours of the day.


Build would involve:

  • Replacing the single-track Robert St. overpass with a 3-track deck (abutments already triple-width).

  • Move the Needham Line's FH passing siding to next available outbound spot between Rozzie and Bellevue, possibly with lengthening of one of the other sidings if there's any residual train meets to make up. Possible opportunity to reinstate 2nd-track decks on some of the outbound bridges to W. Rox that were trimmed back to singles during the mid-80's SGR renovations...bucket list items you'll eventually need to take care of for Orange to W. Rox.

  • Revamp the FH Orange tail tracks--which will flank the mainline on each side--by doubling their length to compensate for the lost storage on the mainline tracks, and add new crossovers. There's another 800+ feet of gravel/pavement slack space past current end-of-track to do this.

  • Do up the Rozzie Orange tail tracks as single-track a la Oak Grove past the Robert St. overpass so the embankment doesn't need reshaping next to the single Needham track.

  • Do any residual track/traffic mgt. corrections on the SW Corridor end of Orange to compensate for the more delicate balance of movements around FH layover. TBD what those touches would be until detailed traffic modeling is released. Shouldn't be anything major, but you're dealing with lower margins for scheduling error on accessing those flanking yard tracks while revenue service runs through the middle, and have to zip some deadheads in/out of Rozzie during shift changes. End result can comfortably live within lower margins and slightly klunkier shift changes so long as it's Do No Harm to the OL at-large.

  • Do up the Orange station on the footprint of the current station + parking land...sensibly cost-controlled (this is the last place that needs a towering glass edifice!). Busway and modest bus parking (any buses idling for > few minutes would deadhead back to Forest Hills, so short-term spaces only) displace some of the excessive parking capacity at the current station. Slap them silly to keep from lighting $$$ on fire trying to match or increasing parking capacity; it never made sense to have such a big P&R lot in a dense square choked with buses as far as the eye can see.

  • Do the replacement CR platform offset from the Orange station, by the municipal parking lot behind Citizens' Bank. Connect with simple outdoor sidewalk and don't integrate all platforms at once into the OL station structure like Malden Center. Not worth driving up station costs or fattening the station footprint for a Needham platform that's not going to be used for more than +15 years before the NEC squeeze forces full conversion to rapid transit, and the Needham stop will see its utilization crater with the extension and mass-cleanup of the area bus schedules.


The new car fleet is not only outright bigger for better headways, but also fattened more for spares. You won't need to purchase any additional equipment to run a Rozzie +1 now that they'll be properly stocked with a recommended maximum of reserves. You might even be OK running the whole W. Roxbury shebang on this upcoming car fleet, though that would pretty much tap out all the padding and put them back in the same uncomfortable situation they are today with threadbare rush-hour reserves. But that's W. Rox...and W. Rox gets forced for a different set of reasons than Rozzie.
 
Orange Line to West Roxbury

The folks in West Roxbury will allow a second gas line before they allow the Orange Line. :/

Is this a serious or sarcastic comment?

If MassDOT holds a hearing and says ``We'd like to stop running diesel trains through your neighborhood and replace them with electric trains'', is there really going to be opposition to that?

Some of the anti gas pipeline folks seem to have been folks who specifically want less carbon pollution in the air, so I'd expect at least some of the pipeline opposition to be in favor of the conversion to Orange Line.
 
Orange Line Extension

The reason for doing that station is more related to Forest Hills bus terminal's congestion than the NEC. It's a down payment on eventually completing to W. Rox, but the reason for front-loading it is for taming the extreme bus congestion at Forest Hills.

If it turns out that building Orange Line to Roslindale Village first and doing the rest later will get the Orange Line to Roslindale Village substantially faster, I don't object to building to just Roslindale Village first.

At the same time, I'd like to understand what the biggest obstacles are to the full build of Orange to West Roxbury and Green to Needham and how difficult they actually are. Is the EIS for the bridge across the Charles to Needham going to involve any significant challenges? Would cutting rush hour headways at Riverside in half to 12 minutes be a problem? Is anything about the Orange Line construction from Roslindale Village to West Roxbury difficult?

  • Replacing the single-track Robert St. overpass with a 3-track deck (abutments already triple-width).

I presume there's at least a small cost savings (on the order of millions of dollars) if the entire Purple to Orange conversion happens all at once and only two tracks are ever needed here.

  • Do the replacement CR platform offset from the Orange station, by the municipal parking lot behind Citizens' Bank. Connect with simple outdoor sidewalk and don't integrate all platforms at once into the OL station structure like Malden Center. Not worth driving up station costs or fattening the station footprint for a Needham platform that's not going to be used for more than +15 years before the NEC squeeze forces full conversion to rapid transit, and the Needham stop will see its utilization crater with the extension and mass-cleanup of the area bus schedules.

If Roslindale Village becomes the new Orange Line terminus, is there really any need to continue to have a commuter rail platform at Roslindale Village at all?
 
Re: Orange Line to West Roxbury

Is this a serious or sarcastic comment?

If MassDOT holds a hearing and says ``We'd like to stop running diesel trains through your neighborhood and replace them with electric trains'', is there really going to be opposition to that?

Some of the anti gas pipeline folks seem to have been folks who specifically want less carbon pollution in the air, so I'd expect at least some of the pipeline opposition to be in favor of the conversion to Orange Line.

It is a pretty real comment - Westie still has a large NIMBY contingent that don't want to give 'undesirables' easy access to the neighborhood, and those that still think the subway brings decay/change/etc. Plus, there are people that will be upset that their one stop 20 minute ride to South Station is taken away vs doing the Orange to Red for the same trip.
 
The things that NIMBYs say at hearings are rarely rational. Almost always they are a post-rationalization of a fear they've felt.

If they've decided they fear change, they will fixate on and testify against:
- a disadvantage of the new thing, no matter how dominated it is by the new thing's advantages
- a lost advantage of the old thing, no matter how dominated it is by the old thing's disadvantages

You simply must attend one or two of these hearings just to understand. I had my first "acid trip" at the GLX hearings, as those around me testified:

1) the MBTA could not be trusted to run electric trolleys Somerville/Medford because buses at the Salem St garage (Medford/Malden) are left running on cold nights. QED.

2) There'd obviously be a parking nightmare at the GLX terminus because there always is (Boston College & Cleveland Circle were omitted from the NIMBY mental maps)

Both were LSD-quality psychedelia but delivered stone cold sober and elicited head nods from those inclined to agree.
 
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NIMBYs and meetings and traffic

For someone who lives north of the Charles who's trying to figure out what the GLX terminus will be like, Alewife is likely to be a more familiar example than BC or Cleveland Circle.

Traffic going through Alewife Circle does not flow well during peak travel times, and I think I may have seen something saying that the whole reason that the Arlington Center to Cambridge border segment of Mass Ave has the second travel lane southbound (which is not mirrored in the northbound direction) is the cascading queuing from the mess that is Alewife Circle.

I don't think it's unreasonable for residents to want to make sure that their neighborhood isn't going to turn into the Alewife Circle mess before they sign off on the GLX.

Now, that said, the vast majority of the traffic going through Alewife Circle is probably not interacting directly with the Alewife Red Line station at all, and the presence of Route 2 is probably a much bigger factor there than the Red Line.

And traffic on Route 16 near where the GLX is proposed to go doesn't flow well, either.

These meetings are not set up in a way that works well for interactive discussion of trying to clarify issues that people are not yet adequately educated about, but on the other hand, it often seems like the government bureaucrats have their own agenda and sometimes seem to be unwilling to admit the truth when a voter has a concern that conflicts with that agenda, and of course many voters are not open to listening to logic.
 
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Orange vs Purple

Wouldn't it be great if there was some station somewhere south of Ruggles where we could give people the option of boarding either the Orange Line or the Needham Line, and we could let people vote with their feet and gather some hard numbers on which is better overall?

The 2014 MBTA Blue Book has typical weekday boarding numbers:

Page 14: Forest Hills Orange Line: 15,150

Page 74: Forest Hills commuter rail: 112
 
Re: NIMBYs and meetings and traffic

Traffic going through Alewife Circle does not flow well ...And traffic on Route 16 near where the GLX is proposed to go doesn't flow well, either.
Let's stipulate that traffic everywhere flows badly at rush hour, shall we? If traffic is a wrong to be complained of, transit is a solution. Complaints of traffic is a reason to build transit, not a reason to oppose transit.

Part of the NIMBY bias is to see a transit terminal as a thing that makes traffic instead of a thing that solves traffic.

Here the residents of Plaistow NH may be cited who simultaneously believed
1) A new station would be so disused that it would be a classic waste of public money,
2) A new station would be so heavily over-used that it would cause constant traffic jams.

When, in fact, engineering estimates showed that the station, while busy, would produce/divert no more rush hour trips than a typical Wendy's, the construction of which would have been completely unremarkable.
 
Re: NIMBYs and meetings and traffic

Let's stipulate that traffic everywhere flows badly at rush hour, shall we? If traffic is a wrong to be complained of, transit is a solution. Complaints of traffic is a reason to build transit, not a reason to oppose transit.

Transit does not generate traffic. Parking generates traffic. The traffic generated by Alewife is entirely related to that 2700 space garage. Even then, most traffic on AWBP and FPP are through trips unrelated to anything local.

Note that Davis has more boardings than Alewife, yet generates near zero car trips.
 
Re: Orange Line Extension

At the same time, I'd like to understand what the biggest obstacles are to the full build of Orange to West Roxbury and Green to Needham and how difficult they actually are. Is the EIS for the bridge across the Charles to Needham going to involve any significant challenges? Would cutting rush hour headways at Riverside in half to 12 minutes be a problem? Is anything about the Orange Line construction from Roslindale Village to West Roxbury difficult?

Neighborhood politics in W. Roxbury are peculiar, but keep in mind that the OL conversion is not your normal advocacy-driven transit build: it's going to be forced by an external 3rd party--Amtrak--gobbling up Needham's CR slots to the point where W. Rox is staring down transit loss. And the literal cheapest fix for that is not widening the SW Corridor, which would cost over a billion, but biting the bullet on this rapid transit conversion. That's a very different value proposition from anything we've seen before with a transit proposal, so the NIMBY interactions won't be over the usual issues. What the state needs to advocate for--as all NEC member states are advocating for--is federal match funding on these kinds of transit improvements that compensate for the NEC's commuter rail capacity limits in an Amtrak-heavier future. For Boston that's the Needham trade-in. But in New Jersey that might mean the feds ponying up for match funding to build the West Trenton commuter rail line and Trenton-West Trenton extension of the RiverLINE to take load off the overcrowded NJ Transit Trenton Line on the NEC. In Maryland that might mean giving MARC's backwater Camden Line a total makeover so it's a more effective D.C.-Baltimore load-reliever for the Penn Line. In Philly that might mean some rapid transit augmentation to carve out some long-term breathing room at 30th St. and streamline the intra-city loads on the SEPTA Wilmington and Trenton Lines. Boston's one of several cities that'll be doing this kind of aggregate-improvements bargaining with the feds over the next 20 years re: local impacts to HSR planning.


As for Needham/Newton, see the thread in the Dev subforum for recent redev goings-on in Newton and Needham that have lit a new fire locally under doing that spur and the big TOD-driven ridership projected around Upper Falls and the Route 128 office parks. Those towns have never stopped advocating for it at the local level; it's always a Master Plan advocacy in those municipalities subject to regular local meetings. It just doesn't get much attention outside those towns because the state has pretended for 40 years that this advocacy doesn't exist. The current tactic is to push for the spur to 128 or Needham Heights on its own merits bound tightly around all this TOD activity, then let momentum carry through on the full conversion to Needman Jct. as "Duh!"-obvious follow-up after the first leg proves itself and those Amtrak considerations go front-burner. It's very early yet...we're talking the beginning-of-the-beginning for this latest TOD-driven Master Plan. But those are the talking points they've wrapped it tight around to maximize their chances over pressure and time. It's a different twist on the Rozzie +1 proposal: highlight that the Phase I spurs are not a down payment on the Amtrak inevitability, but have specific and more urgent needs in their own right. Then use that distinction to raise the profile for investment on the corridor. It's no accident that Newton-Needham coalesced around the TOD argument for the Green spur within months of Marty Walsh stumping on the campaign trail for the bus-centric Rozzie +1 solve on its own (i.e. de-coupled from W. Rox) merits.


I presume there's at least a small cost savings (on the order of millions of dollars) if the entire Purple to Orange conversion happens all at once and only two tracks are ever needed here.
Yes, but keep in mind the differences in mission statements between Rozzie +1 and the whole thing to W. Rox. W. Rox not only has a dependency on doing the entire Green Line conversion in Needham as a tag-team, but it's going to have to be funded with heavier federal contribution because of the Amtrak factor and the feds' obligation to best-compensate for the commuter rail slots they're taking. Rozzie +1 is self-justifiable for Yellow Line reasons and general Lower Washington frequencies alone, because of how much Forest Hills terminal is slated to suffocate from overload after another 15 years of breakneck-pace development in JP, Roxbury, and Roslindale. It's not really accurate to frame it in terms of "down payments" anymore. That's why the advocacy has shifted so much in Boston and Newton-Needham about those first steps having wholly development and congestion mitigation justifications, while conversion of the rest is being re-framed as just a federal path-of-least-resistance. We're seeing more separation in the mission statements due to changing conditions, and it'll probably help the advocacies' chances over time to bullet out those justifications separate-but-clear instead of shotgunning mixed motives. Especially when those motives have--in just the last 5 years--taken on sharper local vs. federal divide.


In actual terms, it's not that big a cost difference because the ROW footprint doesn't need modification, and may indeed save money over the long run by having a faster start on 1/3 of the route miles instead of going monolithic and having inflation jack the ultimate full price to W. Rox. The more bang-bang and less overwrought the planning process is, the less overhead the state chews up in project management. See the GLX vs. Silver Line Gateway project histories for the price we pay for overthinking a monolith too many years in advance of first shovel in ground. Rozzie +1 done right can be more a SL-Gateway type fast start if the keep their planning pace brisk and uncomplicated.

If Roslindale Village becomes the new Orange Line terminus, is there really any need to continue to have a commuter rail platform at Roslindale Village at all?
Probably, because you don't want to induce transit loss for any interzone commuters who still use it. It's the highest-ridership non-terminal CR stop in Boston-proper, and that has to matter for something. The only reason not to do it is if the Phase II to W. Rox is coming much sooner on the calendar.

It's negligible expense to do the CR platform if they watch their cost control. Keep it offset away from the main station, and do up just the rote-generic platform spec for a single side ADA full-high. That should not cost more than $5-8M. Maybe they even relax the length requirement to trim costs because it's a short and dubious long-term future CR branch; go with a 450- or 600-footer matching the rest of the Needham platforms instead of a regular CR-standard 800-footer. They've got a big problem with contractor bloat as evidenced by the recent Blue Hill Ave. project starts announcement that had suspiciously off-scale high price tag for another prefab Fairmount platform. They have to stop killing themselves on unnecessary station costs for both new builds and rehabs in order to get anything accomplished within budget on any build. Prefab platforms like we're talking here were an order of magnitude cheaper per unit when they were building the Old Colony stations 20 years ago, and inflation alone doesn't explain the jarring change. Neither the Orange nor the CR platform here have any justification for costing so much when the T's base platform accessibility specs are generic enough to be counted in fixed costs for materials & labor. Solve the institutional problem with contractor management (or lackthereof) and this shouldn't be nearly as big a worry as it's been on present-day and recent-past station projects.
 
Re: NIMBYs and meetings and traffic

Transit does not generate traffic. Parking generates traffic. The traffic generated by Alewife is entirely related to that 2700 space garage. Even then, most traffic on AWBP and FPP are through trips unrelated to anything local.

Note that Davis has more boardings than Alewife, yet generates near zero car trips.

You seem to be making a general case against park-n-ride facilities which I can't agree with. Alewife serves as the single point of rapid transit access from pretty much all of metro-northwest Boston. The alternative is all of those cars driving into Boston. I do agree that the Alewife park-n-ride doesn't work as well as it should because it has poor road ingress & egress. Alewife does its job of stopping those cars right at the far edge of the rapid transit perimeter, but it fails miserably at the "get in" and "get out" mission of the park-n-ride by dumping all the garage traffic into the mess of local roads.
 

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