11-21 Bromfield Street | DTX | Downtown

Re: One Bromfield (28-story DTX tower) | 1 Bromfield Street | Downtown

wonderful mechanism called ZONING

Whait, that wonderful mechanism which deems almost all of Boston's greatest places illegal, reduces density, drives car culture, and encourages us to spread out?
 
Re: One Bromfield (28-story DTX tower) | 1 Bromfield Street | Downtown

When used properly, zoning is a wonderful mechanism.
 
Re: One Bromfield (28-story DTX tower) | 1 Bromfield Street | Downtown

When used properly, zoning is a wonderful mechanism.

Agreed. Remember, we have not had a city-wide master plan for 5 decades. The zoning in place today is crap and outdated (for the most part).

Good example of zoning working is the northern part of the South End -- recent Harrison Albany corridor planning and re-zoning. Encouraging dense new developments (Troy, Ink Block, 345 Harrison...) in former poorly utilized single story industrial land and parking lots. Exactly the OPPOSITE of sprawl.
 
Re: One Bromfield (28-story DTX tower) | 1 Bromfield Street | Downtown

Another example of zoning is having most of downtown at 155 feet, so the BRA and the mayor can negotiate special deals with developers. Make zoning realistic so developers can actually build something without 12,000 permits and it might work a little better.
 
Re: One Bromfield (28-story DTX tower) | 1 Bromfield Street | Downtown

Another example of zoning is having most of downtown at 155 feet, so the BRA and the mayor can negotiate special deals with developers. Make zoning realistic so developers can actually build something without 12,000 permits and it might work a little better.

Is that true? Because that seems at least a little draconian. Downtown and the high spine should be zoned for at least 400 feet as of right
 
Re: One Bromfield (28-story DTX tower) | 1 Bromfield Street | Downtown

In some spots 500 feet seems reasonable to me.
 
Re: One Bromfield (28-story DTX tower) | 1 Bromfield Street | Downtown

Another example of zoning is having most of downtown at 155 feet, so the BRA and the mayor can negotiate special deals with developers. Make zoning realistic so developers can actually build something without 12,000 permits and it might work a little better.

You mean that is a bad example and you think it should be zoned for higher than 155 feet, right? If so, I agree.

Here's an example of bad zoning:

A couple months ago, I was looking at a small, decrepit single-family home on a street in Somerville where every single other structure was a two- or three-family home on lots of identical size to the single-family home. The area is zoned such that if a developer purchased the single-family home, knocked it down, and built a triple-decker identical to its neighbors, it would be WAY beyond the current zoning limits.

Basically, many areas are currently zoned so that building contextual structures requires a zoning exception. This is so that the city can be more involved and have more power than it otherwise would if proposed structure were built to zoning code. Setting up zoning in this way is wrong, and extremely anti-development.
 
Re: One Bromfield (28-story DTX tower) | 1 Bromfield Street | Downtown

Agreed. Remember, we have not had a city-wide master plan for 5 decades. The zoning in place today is crap and outdated (for the most part).

Good example of zoning working is the northern part of the South End -- recent Harrison Albany corridor planning and re-zoning. Encouraging dense new developments (Troy, Ink Block, 345 Harrison...) in former poorly utilized single story industrial land and parking lots. Exactly the OPPOSITE of sprawl.

This is more an example of zoning not harming than an example of it helping. Zoning isn't "encouraging" those dense new developments as much as it is allowing them. Take away the zoning and those developments would still be as dense, if not denser.

That being said, I do agree that zoning done right can be a force for good. But it has to be done right, and it rarely is...
 
Re: One Bromfield (28-story DTX tower) | 1 Bromfield Street | Downtown

This is more an example of zoning not harming than an example of it helping. Zoning isn't "encouraging" those dense new developments as much as it is allowing them. Take away the zoning and those developments would still be as dense, if not denser.

That being said, I do agree that zoning done right can be a force for good. But it has to be done right, and it rarely is...

There was ZERO movement in building on those parcels before the zoning was changed. The zoning change signaled the City's willingness (from a collective planning process) for density in this area. Developers knew then that the path was clear.

And I agree with others that we need some rational rezoning of the high-rise spine. Every tower should not be a major battle with community groups.
 
Re: One Bromfield (28-story DTX tower) | 1 Bromfield Street | Downtown

Subtle argument shifting at work. What Statler is addressing is the line of argument that goes: "There are lots of retail vacancies, hence the street must be redeveloped".

There is a difference IMO between your standard "retail vacancy" of months or even a few years and storefronts that have been vacant for a decade or longer.
 
Re: One Bromfield (28-story DTX tower) | 1 Bromfield Street | Downtown

There was ZERO movement in building on those parcels before the zoning was changed. The zoning change signaled the City's willingness (from a collective planning process) for density in this area. Developers knew then that the path was clear.

And I agree with others that we need some rational rezoning of the high-rise spine. Every tower should not be a major battle with community groups.

So are you now admitting zoning is stifling or not? I'm even more against zoning now than I was before you said it was "good."
 
Re: One Bromfield (28-story DTX tower) | 1 Bromfield Street | Downtown

So are you now admitting zoning is stifling or not? I'm even more against zoning now than I was before you said it was "good."

Bad, out of date zoning is stifling. Good zoning is enabling. Like a lot of things in life. Rarely black or white. Lots of gray.

Largely depends on the process that created the zoning. It is simply a tool. Tools can be used well, or they can be abused.

Also, stifling is a matter of opinion. We here typically try to stifle hazardous chemical storage next to apartment towers and schools (through rational zoning), unlike in Tianjen China (or Texas). Laissez faire development tends to allow those things -- which many do not believe is a good idea (unless you are a chemical industry lobbiest).
 
Re: One Bromfield (28-story DTX tower) | 1 Bromfield Street | Downtown

Bad, out of date zoning is stifling. Good zoning is enabling. Like a lot of things in life. Rarely black or white. Lots of gray.

Largely depends on the process that created the zoning. It is simply a tool. Tools can be used well, or they can be abused.

Also, stifling is a matter of opinion. We here typically try to stifle hazardous chemical storage next to apartment towers and schools (through rational zoning), unlike in Tianjen China (or Texas). Laissez faire development tends to allow those things -- which many do not believe is a good idea (unless you are a chemical industry lobbiest).

You're being a-historical in your description of zoning. Zoning was not some tool like a hammer that got invented to accomplish a general task that used to be done with rocks or other things that could bash an object. Before zoning in the US, we did not have laissez faire development in any real sense of that phrase. Zoning in many places was explicitly created to create a new-fangled way to exclude poor renters of any color and black people of any income out of "proper" residential neighborhoods. "Proper" being defined as white, above some income level, living in single-family houses.

The need to keep hazardous chemical storage away from schools was very often a smokescreen, albeit one that quickly morphed into a goal in and of itself: and often a good and worthy goal for low-income rents. Consider how the lack of zoning tied in to the Great Molasses Flood here in Boston.

Before zoning existed, poor people and black people were excluded from "proper" neighborhoods by flat-out terror and state-semi-sanctioned violence. As for smelly industrial uses, they were kept out of "proper" neighborhoods because wealth was even more concentrated then than it is now, and it was quite easy and obvious to have various gentlemen's agreements about where not to put the smelly stuff.

As US society became more complex and the economic elite began having less ability to use unspoken but clearly understood rules, they shifted over to zoning. And, subsequent to the creation of zoning, all sorts of other non-racist and non-elitist people have attempted to use zoning for entirely good and worthy purposes.

So, I am not completely disagreeing with you: zoning can be used for good or ill, and there is no longer any simple breakdown between who's on what side. Powerful eco-forces can be either pro or con on a particular zoning law or idea, and populists can be either pro or con. It's all messy now, politically.

I am generalizing quite a lot here. The specifics vary wildly across different times and places. But there is a lot of dirt to the early history of zoning. It was a weapon of social control, used by people who despised many of their fellow Americans, especially the recently-arrived and the dark-skinned. And that dirt is not gone entirely from zoning. Best example in the suburbs: demanding large minimum lot sizes. In public those nice suburbanites go on and on about traffic and density and overcrowding in schools - all of which may be true and which they may well actually also care about. But lurking beneath that is the perfectly clear understanding that keeping to those large lot sizes in a mostly built up suburb will "keep out the undesirables" - which can and often is phrased in a more ugly fashion behind closed doors.

The street in Boston we're discussing is far from a suburb, so that example is not pertinent here. But zoning history in Boston is not neutral.

Or as you put it: "tools can be used well, or they can be abused". Yep, and I'm sure we can find at least one zoning change proposal that I would define as an abuse and you would define as using zoning well. Who's right? (why, me, of course!! - this is my post) The decision point for me on good or bad isn't whether a zoning rule is old or new. It's: what embedded bias does this zoning law steer towards?

/rant
 
Re: One Bromfield (28-story DTX tower) | 1 Bromfield Street | Downtown

You're being a-historical in your description of zoning. Zoning was not some tool like a hammer that got invented to accomplish a general task that used to be done with rocks or other things that could bash an object. Before zoning in the US, we did not have laissez faire development in any real sense of that phrase. Zoning in many places was explicitly created to create a new-fangled way to exclude poor renters of any color and black people of any income out of "proper" residential neighborhoods. "Proper" being defined as white, above some income level, living in single-family houses.

The need to keep hazardous chemical storage away from schools was very often a smokescreen, albeit one that quickly morphed into a goal in and of itself: and often a good and worthy goal for low-income rents. Consider how the lack of zoning tied in to the Great Molasses Flood here in Boston.

Before zoning existed, poor people and black people were excluded from "proper" neighborhoods by flat-out terror and state-semi-sanctioned violence. As for smelly industrial uses, they were kept out of "proper" neighborhoods because wealth was even more concentrated then than it is now, and it was quite easy and obvious to have various gentlemen's agreements about where not to put the smelly stuff.

As US society became more complex and the economic elite began having less ability to use unspoken but clearly understood rules, they shifted over to zoning. And, subsequent to the creation of zoning, all sorts of other non-racist and non-elitist people have attempted to use zoning for entirely good and worthy purposes.

So, I am not completely disagreeing with you: zoning can be used for good or ill, and there is no longer any simple breakdown between who's on what side. Powerful eco-forces can be either pro or con on a particular zoning law or idea, and populists can be either pro or con. It's all messy now, politically.

I am generalizing quite a lot here. The specifics vary wildly across different times and places. But there is a lot of dirt to the early history of zoning. It was a weapon of social control, used by people who despised many of their fellow Americans, especially the recently-arrived and the dark-skinned. And that dirt is not gone entirely from zoning. Best example in the suburbs: demanding large minimum lot sizes. In public those nice suburbanites go on and on about traffic and density and overcrowding in schools - all of which may be true and which they may well actually also care about. But lurking beneath that is the perfectly clear understanding that keeping to those large lot sizes in a mostly built up suburb will "keep out the undesirables" - which can and often is phrased in a more ugly fashion behind closed doors.

The street in Boston we're discussing is far from a suburb, so that example is not pertinent here. But zoning history in Boston is not neutral.

Or as you put it: "tools can be used well, or they can be abused". Yep, and I'm sure we can find at least one zoning change proposal that I would define as an abuse and you would define as using zoning well. Who's right? (why, me, of course!! - this is my post) The decision point for me on good or bad isn't whether a zoning rule is old or new. It's: what embedded bias does this zoning law steer towards?

/rant

So your answer is that because zoning can be abused, no zoning? You have simply described historical abuse of a tool. All use of tools have interest biases. They are used by humans.

How about a solution rather than a rant?
 
Re: One Bromfield (28-story DTX tower) | 1 Bromfield Street | Downtown

No, I am not arguing that because zoning can be abused, there should be no zoning, and I am not aiming to describe a historical abuse of a tool. I am suggesting zoning is a derivative tool, and that tool was not something that came into existence neutrally and then got abused. Zoning at its birth was invented to be a new tool for continuing age-old abuses. The original zoning itself was abusive, and meant to be so.

In many ways it worked, and continues to work in that fashion. There are many places in the US where zoning has codified stringent income segregation along with a strong side serving of racial segregation. In some such places the majority of inhabitants are thrilled with the outcome and use their majority to elect politicians who will defend to the death that ugly use of the zoning tool. No problem with zoning is perceived by such residents, thus no solution is desired from within, and can’t realistically be imposed from the outside. We have such places in the Boston metro area. In these places, the zoning tools themselves are abusive and are working as intended.

In other places, the tool has been taken over by people who do not want to use it abusively. Boston for example, once used zoning (and many other tools) to eradicate the West End, among other ugly actions. Boston has evolved so much that I have no fear that a repeat of that era is on the cards. But many of the long-outdated zoning (and other) tools that Boston has on the books date from that era.

My main worry with Boston is that Boston’s entire development process, zoning included, is still way too opaque and allows for way too much informal manipulation behind the scenes. Fixing that would have to start from broader reform of the BRA at the least, which Mayor Walsh has made some nods towards. Then you could hope to create a process by which a zoning plan could be drafted that would balance the competing interests fairly and transparently.

Given the hyper-concentration of power during the later Menino years, and the inevitable flux during the first term of Walsh’s tenure (would have been flux with anyone else, too), I’m not sure the zoning is the place to start in looking for solutions to development problems in Boston. I think we need to see what he proposes with the BRA. If it looks like a set of changes that make it look like a spiffier and more modernly run place but leaves power consolidated opaquely in his hands, the zoning won’t matter. If he proposes something that actually opens up some transparency, then we could talk zoning.
 
Re: One Bromfield (28-story DTX tower) | 1 Bromfield Street | Downtown

Given the hyper-concentration of power during the later Menino years, and the inevitable flux during the first term of Walsh’s tenure (would have been flux with anyone else, too), I’m not sure the zoning is the place to start in looking for solutions to development problems in Boston. I think we need to see what he proposes with the BRA. If it looks like a set of changes that make it look like a spiffier and more modernly run place but leaves power consolidated opaquely in his hands, the zoning won’t matter. If he proposes something that actually opens up some transparency, then we could talk zoning.

West, on this point we are in violent agreement. I am also pretty convinved (but cannot prove it) that the long standing archaic zoning in much of Boston was left in place precisely to concentrate the power in the Mayor and the BRA -- everybody who wanted to build anything (almost) had to seek a variance (bow down to power).

Yes, we will have to wait and see if the Walsh administration actually opens up the BRA to transparent operation, or all the talk is just window dressing. Also, the way that the BRA is funded really has to be addressed -- it creates an inherent conflict of interest against good planning/zoning. In all of this, I understand and appreciate your concern.
 
Re: One Bromfield (28-story DTX tower) | 1 Bromfield Street | Downtown

Zoning at its birth was invented to be a new tool for continuing age-old abuses. The original zoning itself was abusive, and meant to be so.

In many ways it worked, and continues to work in that fashion. There are many places in the US where zoning has codified stringent income segregation along with a strong side serving of racial segregation. In some such places the majority of inhabitants are thrilled with the outcome and use their majority to elect politicians who will defend to the death that ugly use of the zoning tool. No problem with zoning is perceived by such residents, thus no solution is desired from within, and can’t realistically be imposed from the outside. We have such places in the Boston metro area. In these places, the zoning tools themselves are abusive and are working as intended.
.

Are you speaking of all zoning at its birth being abusive and ill motivated, or just Boston?

Do you view zoning strictly as a tool of racists, or can it serve any useful purpose?

If you think that zoning is theoretically appropriate, how would you use it to overcome racism?

If you believe that racism would be defeated if we had no zoning, how would that work, and can you provide any examples?

Thanks for your thoughts. It is a challenging subject.
 
Re: One Bromfield (28-story DTX tower) | 1 Bromfield Street | Downtown

Are you speaking of all zoning at its birth being abusive and ill motivated, or just Boston?

No, not at all. The story varies city by city and I don’t know Boston’s early history as well as I wish I did. In many places, the urge to separate out industrial from residential uses was the main driving factor, in other places it was “ooh, we can use THIS shiny new tool to kick the ____[insert unwanted local group]”. Sometimes that was much more explicitly classist than it was racist. In some places the varying impulses that drive zoning were a grab bag of different issues.

Do you view zoning strictly as a tool of racists, or can it serve any useful purpose?

Not at all. It can serve all sorts of useful purposes and plenty of politicians, citizens, and zoning officials are trying to do that. I would not go so far as to say zoning can serve “any” useful purposes. Part of my problem with zoning is that it must inherently be generalized to allow flexibility, but that means you end up with fairly blunt tools.

If you think that zoning is theoretically appropriate, how would you use it to overcome racism?

Well, the entire concept of inclusionary zoning gets at this, but it is awfully hard to do. Part of the problem gets down to the splintered nature of zoning regs (and school districts and every other aspect of local governance). One town cannot impose inclusionary zoning on its own. Chapter 40B is an attempt to address this, a pretty flawed attempt IMO, but better than nothing. At least, I think it’s better than nothing. I’d like to see it rewritten but I fear what the Legislature would actually do if they opened up the conversation to amending it.

If you believe that racism would be defeated if we had no zoning, how would that work, and can you provide any examples?

I do not in any way shape or form believe that racism would be defeated if we had no zoning, not a chance, nor would any other forms of institutionalized abuse of the weak be defeated if we had no zoning. Racism pre-dated zoning by a long, long time, and could survive without it. Racists use zoning tools to their advantage in some current jurisdictions while racists elsewhere are thwarted by zoning tools.

When I say that part of the impetus to create zoning was to find new ways of perpetuating racism, I do not imply that it was the only way that could have been accomplished. And I do not argue racism’s the only thing that drove zoning. It’s a nasty subtext to the history of zoning – and to the current reality in some places. Can’t be ignored, but can’t be made the end-all and be-all of any discussion about zoning.
 
Re: One Bromfield (28-story DTX tower) | 1 Bromfield Street | Downtown

West, I understand the ugly history of zoning being used to protect white enclaves from minorities (or even lower income) residents moving in.

But I think with the Bromfield Street discussion -- where this started -- we are talking about downtown commercial (mostly) zoning. I don't think there is much evidence of zoning preventing minorities (specifically) from building high-rise towers... (It may prevent everyone but the connected developer, but that connected developer could easily be a minority).
 

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