[ARCHIVED] Harbor Garage Redevelopment | 70 East India Row | Waterfront | Downtown

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Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

What's your agenda here stellar? I've read your posts for years and this seems highly inconsistent. It's as if someone's hijacked your profile for this one development.

The Harbor Garage towers could be a 1,000 feet tall for all I care. Why stop at 600' or 700'?

The fundamental issue is that, to this point, Chiofaro seems to be trying to avoid the limits that Chapter 91 imposes on this site. Chapter 91 is a law passed by the legislature, signed by the Governor, and antedates Chiofaro's purchase of the garage.

Even assuming the Commonwealth decided basically to not apply the limits of Chapter 91 so Chiofaro could build big, -- and that is a huge assumption -- any such approval would be immediately litigated by parties seeking to have the provisions/requirements of Chapter 91 upheld and applied. And exhibit 1 in their argument would be the determination letter signed by Ian Bowles in 2009 stating that in no way would/could a building of that height and footprint-hugging mass be approved.

For all those who have seen this development as a contest of wills between Chiofaro and Menino/BRA, it really wasn't that at all. Chiofaro's fight is with the state.
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

I don't want to get way of topic here with the road salt BS but there is the whole atlantic ocean thing sitting next to the garage so that might pose a problem as well. Bottom line, it's a petty argument.

The salt air probably has more of a corrosive effect on the garage than does road salt.
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

For all those who have seen this development as a contest of wills between Chiofaro and Menino/BRA, it really wasn't that at all. Chiofaro's fight is with the state.

If you do not have the Mayor or the city support from the get go the state won't even acknowledge to make an exception.

Wake up. Every project in this city and state has an exception with some-type of zoning or regulation.
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

With respect to the Chapter 91 requirements referenced so many times above. I understand that the idea is, anything built in place of the garage would need to meet current standards, but I also see a very real argument for a variance given that it's replacing a concrete bunker that completely blocks the harbor and provides little to no open space as would be required by Chapter 91.

The case can be made that let's say they couldn't for a full 50%, but instead could manage 25-30% more than is currently provided, and although this doesn't meet the standard, it is a significant betterment to the existing site.

I'm just saying, I don't think Chapter 91 is as black and white on a knock down/rebuild, as opposed to true new construction.
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

For all those who have seen this development as a contest of wills between Chiofaro and Menino/BRA, it really wasn't that at all. Chiofaro's fight is with the state.

Disagree.

State (EEA, DEP, CZM) provide Boston with an extraordinary opportunity to customize the waterfront for significant development, not preservation. That's the purpose of a Municipal Harbor Plan. But since we're talking about filled tideland (once Boston Harbor), public access and activation on these parcels are paramount.

Examples from Atlantic Wharf to every building on Fan Pier required compliance with Chapter 91.

The fact that the BRA waits for a single project to drive the MHP process was not a decision by the state. Boston could have codified a framework for waterfront development in a Municipal Harbor Plan 10 years ago, before Chiofaro arrived on the scene.

Instead, there is an incorrect public perception that Chiofaro is moving through an interminable approval process. Same thing when Atlantic Wharf had to move through the drafting of an MHP before it could be filed as a project. Same thing at Fan Pier, Pritzker had to wait for an MHP process before filing projects at BRA.

My observation of state regulators is that they are not NIMBY or opposed to development. They are keenly aware of factors ranging from public activation to access to massing and more. Unfortunately, some of the most critical elements of Chapter 91 — the planning of ground floors for one, are rarely if ever discussed during the drafting of the MHP.
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

Sicilian, you write:

"Boston could have codified a framework for waterfront development in a Municipal Harbor Plan 10 years ago, before Chiofaro arrived on the scene."

Ahem. They did...it's called the Downtown Boston Waterfront Municipal Harbor Plan, which was put in place in 1991. It limits development on the Harbor Garage site to 155' and mandates 50% open space. Same as city zoning put in place around the same time. And these laws were put in place when Ray Flynn was Mayor. Did he have a problem with Don Chiofaro (who wouldn't purchase the garage for another 16 years) too?
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

Times change. The Boston of 1991 was an irrelevant, rudderless cesspool of a city lucky to count amongst its peers Baltimore and Cleveland.
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

Times change. The Boston of 1991 was an irrelevant, rudderless cesspool of a city lucky to count amongst its peers Baltimore and Cleveland.

The fact that this was written in 1991 is exactly why it needs to be tossed. Great point.
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

Jeez people. I didn't realize that everyone in this thread has a PhD in concrete durability.

Nitpicking about deicing salts aside, my question still stands. A concrete structure exposed to 40years worth of freeze thaw cycles, salt intrusion and cyclic loading will not last forever. Does anyone have a ballpark on the design life of concrete parking garages? Eventually they will HAVE to come down and be replaced by something else. If that time is within the near future (~20 years IMO), why settle when we can wait for something more appropriately sized?
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

Why isn't this appropriately sized? I honestly don't see the problem at this location... other than if you live in the harbor towers of course.
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

Jeez people. I didn't realize that everyone in this thread has a PhD in concrete durability.

Nitpicking about deicing salts aside, my question still stands. A concrete structure exposed to 40years worth of freeze thaw cycles, salt intrusion and cyclic loading will not last forever. Does anyone have a ballpark on the design life of concrete parking garages? Eventually they will HAVE to come down and be replaced by something else. If that time is within the near future (~20 years IMO), why settle when we can wait for something more appropriately sized?

If that's the case the harbor towers should come down by 2025!!! Yay
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

Road salt clearly kills garages (its what caused the Boston Common Garage to have to be dug up and redone c. 1993...and then got that plastic paint on the floor so it wouldn't happen again). But I don't think salt air is going to be enough to do in the towers themselves.
Jeez people. I didn't realize that everyone in this thread has a PhD in concrete durability.
The Lackawanna Cut-off has reinforced concrete viaducts, switch towers, and station structures that have lasted 100 years of freeze-thaw with basically no maintenance (disuse, bankruptcy, stations overgrown). Everything, right down to the ornamental roof brackets (see below) was concrete. They're chipped at the edges and top, but the vertical surfaces are doing fine. Here's the DL&W Tower at Tobyhanna PA in 2012 (~100 yrs old at the time)
scanlondl71,-d-,120409,-d-,29000.jpg

(the DL&W's president admired *Roman* concrete structures and built his to last as long.)
Same design tower (viewed from the other, "window" side) at Slatford PA is similarly good, despite utter abandonment.
 
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Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

Jeez people. I didn't realize that everyone in this thread has a PhD in concrete durability.

That's the great thing about aB. Some of these guys are experts on a whole range of building, planning, and transportation topics. I've learned an awful lot around here.
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

Jeez people. I didn't realize that everyone in this thread has a PhD in concrete durability.

Nitpicking about deicing salts aside, my question still stands. A concrete structure exposed to 40years worth of freeze thaw cycles, salt intrusion and cyclic loading will not last forever. Does anyone have a ballpark on the design life of concrete parking garages? Eventually they will HAVE to come down and be replaced by something else. If that time is within the near future (~20 years IMO), why settle when we can wait for something more appropriately sized?

I don't have a PhD but definitely do have some relevant experience in this subject. Some of the comments regarding this issue have been pretty silly. thinkbiggerboston was perfectly correct. Exposed reinforced concrete particularly in a chlorine rich environment (e.g. road salt and near the ocean) are major issues in the structural lifecycle of reinforced concrete structures.

Here's a Globe article on exactly this issue - impact of environment on reinforced concrete structures. Read this if you want a good summary of the issue. For a story written by a journalist and not an engineer it's not bad but not entirely correct. It unfortunately tries to tie the issue to climate change which further confuses the issue.

"[There are] two processes that slowly eat away at concrete: carbonation, in which carbon dioxide diffuses into concrete, and chlorination, in which chloride ions, dissolved in water, are absorbed into concrete (especially a problem near the ocean, where chloride-rich salt spray coats buildings). Eventually the carbon dioxide or chlorides reach the rebar inside, causing it to corrode and expand. The process is largely invisible until a building’s façade cracks or chunks of concrete fall from a highway overpass."

This process is exacerbated in structures like bridges and garages that are directly exposed to road salts. And also that have significant live loads from moving cars and therefore have cyclic loading and deflections. The potential for corrosion is mitigated by using epoxy-coated rebars which seek to keep the chlorine away from the steel and providing deeper concrete 'cover' of the reinforcement (i.e. the perpendicular distance from the face of the concrete to the edge of the reinforcement.

There is not pat answer to how long such buildings will last. As usual it depends on the original detailing, the concrete mix design and the quality of the original construction and probably mostly on the level of maintenance. There are also several remediation measures that can be undertaken. The article discusses a lot of these issues. Structures built in the 60's like the garage will be particularly susceptible to these issues. The article refers to a code-based 75 year expected design life which might then be shortened by 20 years or more because of climate change. The point is that despite climate change the 75 years is already proving optimistic (subject to varying capex for maintenance).

Frankly I'm not sure I find the technical study referred to in the article about the impact of climate change on these structures all that persuasive. But it is another thing to consider. All of this said, with respect to the garage it can be assumed that Chiofarro knows these issues fairly well as he will have had a technical appraisal of the condition and potential problems of the structure performed at the time of the purchase and likely more recently in order to perform maintenance.

Note that these issues are very similar as for the now condemned parking structure beneath UMass Boston and precisely for these reasons. Refer to this study by Simpson Gumphertz & Heger who are very much the local experts in this field. This building was built at the same time (early '70s) as the Harbor Towers Garage and is located in a similar environment (ocean, parking) and was decommissioned almost 10 years ago.

The conclusion of SGH's report is:

"Exposure to salt-laden water over many years has caused severe and widespread corrosion damage at the upper and lower levels; this is not unusual for structures of this vintage and exposure. The predominant corrosion damage is delaminated and/or spalled concrete over corroded reinforcement in the top of the slabs.

Unlike the upper and lower levels, the plaza level structure was protected from the elements for many years by waterproofing. Consequently, the amount of deterioration of the plaza level structure is far less than that of the upper and lower levels."

Just as in the case of the UMass building a plan for long-term repair can be undertaken. However, as in that case, it is likely to be cost prohibitive and indicate a preference to take it down and build something new.
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

If that time is within the near future (~20 years IMO), why settle when we can wait for something more appropriately sized?
Your argument presupposes that the current proposal isn't appropriately sized, which it is. Prove that it's not, and try not using the words shadows, wind, traffic, parking, or lower property value.
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

Chiofaro has the right idea--

I would like to see the towers taller--700ft and 610
I like the retractable roof idea- is brilliant

Concerning Traffic---This is one location that can really be justified to build as high as possible. Your sitting on the Blue Line- instant hard rail access


Concerning issue about the salt corrosion on the cemet (Who gives a shit)
I will be sick if I have to walk by this cement wall on the Greenway in the next 5 years because of a bunch of spoiled asshole trustees-- telling the public the buildings are too tall but our 400ft pieces of shit are great for Boston Skyline-

This area should be the best in Boston (Right now it isn't)
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

To reiterate my earlier point, chiofaro seems to be holding Boston hostage by threatening/inferring that the monstrosity of a parking garage will remain there forever unless we let him build these massive new towers.
He's holding us "hostage" unless we let him build a tower in the downtown of a major metropolitan area where it's appropriate to build towers? How horrible. We'll I guess we'll have to give into his demands before this thing escalates.
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

Do we all think that the shiny renderings are what he's actually planning to build? I sure as hell don't.
 
Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

Chiofaro wants us to think that he is the only lifeline, and that's not the case.

It's already been there for 40 years, what's a few more?

Concerning Waiting 40 years--What's the difference a little longer?
I personally want to enjoy the future Greenway. I'm tired of walking by this wall of cement. Knock the parking garage down before I'm dead..

Do we all think that the shiny renderings are what he's actually planning to build? I sure as hell don't.

I don't know if you notice he is the only lifeline at this point --he also seems to have more at stake than anybody to make the Greenway a very successful area- in my opinion.

If I had a choice on who to listen to on this development
Harbor Towers Trustees vs Chiofaro---
I'm going to have to take Chiofaro Vision on this one.

Harbor Tower Residents are still trying to recover from that 75 Million dollar bill for the HVAC systems from the Trustees--- I would say the Trustees probably don't understand economics so they are completely clueless on development costs.

Even Northeastern School of Architecture professor and director George Thrush even claims he's not against the height just Chiofaro's height because Harbor Towers Trustees paid his invoice.
 
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Re: The Boston Arch (Aquarium parking garage)

To reiterate my earlier point, chiofaro seems to be holding Boston hostage by threatening/inferring that the monstrosity of a parking garage will remain there forever unless we let him build these massive new towers. I'm simply making the point that the parking garage's lifespan is very limited and there is no need to be so impatient. Chiofaro wants us to think that he is the only lifeline, and that's not the case.
Ok, let's say your scenario runs exactly like it should. The garage comes down, Chiofaro still wants build his 700 ft and 610 ft towers because, while the garage goes away, he still has to bury a garage and so he still needs to make a return on the investment. For a project that can start paying dividends sooner rather than later, your idea instead stalls it, perhaps even longer considering that by the time the garage goes down, the business cycle will be less rosy. Unfortunately, people don't understand (or maybe understands too well) how important timing is when doing development. You can't just build whenever.
 
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