Back Bay Garage Tower | Dartmouth and Stuart | Back Bay

Somebody mentioned this before and I wonder what people think of a gerbil tube from mall on top of the station to Copley Place.
Normally, I don't like these as it's rarely eye pleasing and reduces street vitality, but in this case I think it might make sense.
 
Isn't there already an underground connection? I don't see any benefit to adding a second above ground connection.
 
The office building, "edgy" and "fresh" by Boston standards, calls to mind a childish imitation of a Bjarke Ingels building.

Seems everything is similar to something else nowadays.

Look how far New York has to go to get an original looking design.
 
Isn't there already an underground connection? I don't see any benefit to adding a second above ground connection.

Yes and the underground connection is ideal because it connects literally to the Orange Line platform. It's just not currently accessible. I'm not entirely sure if Copley Place or this project will make it accessible.
 
Why does the Back Bay have this weird 350'-400' plateau? Every new sizeable tower there should be at least 500' imo.
 
Why does the Back Bay have this weird 350'-400' plateau? Every new sizeable tower there should be at least 500' imo.

From a street level perspective I think the back bay is one of the most architecturally pleasing neighborhoods in the entire country. I understand the NIMBY's reluctance to allow 500ft+ towers which might effect the street level experience. European cities without tall towers in the city center are more desirable than american cities with tall towers and poor urban planning.
 
Nimbys from christmas past. Why they are still building to this height with a 625' copley tower in its kitchen I have no idea. Maybe just to piss us off?
 
Why does the Back Bay have this weird 350'-400' plateau? Every new sizeable tower there should be at least 500' imo.

It's not just the Back Bay. Every section of Boston seems to have its own plateau.

Downtown before MT was topped by 5 buildings all within 24' of each other.

28 State, 60 State, Exchange Place within 10' of each other.

Seaport low 200's. (FAA forced this)

Chinatown new towers all around 300'.

Kendall mid 200's.

Longwood/Huntington mid 200's.

Saltonstall/McCormick/JFK (with Suffolk County Courthouse as the 4th) upper 300's to 400'.

North Station area looks like everything will be mid 400's to ~500'.

Obviously Back Bay is full of 300-399', with just 3 really breaking that so far. (Hancock, Pru, 111) In a lot of ways it looks even stranger because the Hancock is literally double the height of the top of the lower plateau. (395' Westin)

We could really use a few more peaks and valleys. Instead it's like, anything that's built has to be around the same height as its neighbors. It's strange and uninspiring. Hell, even the new CSC is going to be within a few feet of the Pru next door. More variety please! I'd rather have a 300' and a 500' than 2 400's next door to each other. Every section of the skyline is just a wall of similar heights, which then steps up or down but always continues the wall.
 
there's a simple answer.

if you accommodate 1 developer and take too large a bite out of the infrastructure, traffic, public transportation etc, it causes problems. Not just because everyone expects you to accommodate them. They've apportioned the parts as not to exceed the whole. That being said, this project and 380 Stewart really are 'big.' Add them to everything else going up. Many of us probably think they could have built a good number of these taller. Still, as it is, they can't bring the cranes fast enough. The density in this part of Back Bay is going to be epic by Nimby standards. Their heads are going to explode.
 
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That "answer" read at least to me like someone throwing around a bunch of development related lingo that in the end said nothing other than a much simpler people are used to getting accommodations from developers and developers are so used to having to give them they do it automatically.

Also what is the parts not exceeding the whole about that is the most nonsensical portion at least as far as I can tell. What is the "whole" and who is doing the apportioning?

Also I agree with the sentiment that overall height isn't necessarily the issue in Boston it is the plateaus that are created by zoning and NIMBYs that are the issue.
 
Yup. Great.

Good topic for 'over lunch' with Don Chiofaro. but here, it's not likely to end well. I'm wondering if i should stop while i'm behind about the 'why' we didn't end up with much of a skyline in the Back Bay. And why that's not likely to change for a long time.

should i try to make myself out to be even more stupid? my take.

1. Boston was in a historic collapse when Urban Renewal began. It's hard to plan for 50-60 years out on an area of land that's so tightly wound with waterways, green patches, historical properties, old subways and underground infrastructure.
2. The Back Bay between the FAA height restricted zone and the Charles River is narrow. Skyscraper building could have benefited greatly if zoning for the 'tall' could have been set wider and longer, and the step down to the brownstone residents given a few additional rows. But it wasn't possible.
3. add; the High Spine is already crowded with heavy rail, subway lines, and the Mass Pike.
4. Streets are a bit narrow here for building a denser urban zone.
5. The Green Line subway needs more tracks. The stations are too small and spaced too close together that slow traffic to a crawl.
6. The Pru Center master plan is was done for 1965-1970, and was poorly conceived. There's a few non-shade challenged parcels that would have been perfect for 2 or 3 more Skyscrapers. What's done is done.
7. Copley Square, Trinity Church and the BPL are treated by planners as a national monument (my choice of words). Most of the parcels near JHT are too close to Copley Square... Parcels east of Copley Square are too close to the Public Garden.
8. After Copley Place in 1984, building in the Back Bay anywhere near neighborhoods came to be labled as offensive to the character of Boston. The problem is, the High Spine is an integral part of the neighborhood that seeks to restrict it. Nimbyism was not only allowed by the Menino admn, but encouraged to flourish.
9. Now with all the new building, the BRA is very careful to allow too much density to be given to a single project. Not just because of the nimby, but also for reasons that appear centered about 'rationing capacity/infrastructure' to the community of developers. That's just how i interpret building in the Back Bay. no thesis. Did i hear a much cleaner version of it some time ago? i can't recall.

I believe the largest projects since the '70s were Copley Place, Dewey Square and International Place. All at or near the rail hubs. I don't recall the total size of IP, but it was done in parts. 1 Financial Center @ 1.3M sq ft is anchored by South Station.

Now we're seeing +1M sq ft at our rail hubs again.
 
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Why does the Back Bay have this weird 350'-400' plateau? Every new sizeable tower there should be at least 500' imo.

It looks kind of like Charlotte - where you have a few buildings dominating and then they're surrounded by much smaller buildings. We need a few more towers in the 550-650 range to really even things out.

It's a good thing Dalton is happening as that will take some of the attention away from the Pru and Hancock. But the renders for Copley Place have it being completely dwarfed by the Hancock.
 
There seems to be a frequent assumption here that economics would always dictate a taller tower if it weren't for those damned NIMBYs. Also an assumption that the powers that be (in this case the BRA and Boston Properties) should have the postcard-view skyline crescendo somewhere on their priority list. The first proposition is demonstrably false, the second is just silly.

The tallest towers, and especially the tall, slim towers that seem to induce fellatio among some members of this forum, aren't often built purely on the basis of economics, they are built because the "statement" itself is part of the point. This was the case for both the Pru (it was seen by city leaders as an important affirmation of Boston's resurgence after several bleak decades) and the JHT (which Boston-based JH felt important to be taller than the Pru, a Newark interloper). It's also true of the "signature" towers in many second-tier cities and entire clusters in places like Dubai. That is why the Pru and JHT have been the tallest in Boston for so long - their justification was based partly on the PR impact. It's only been recently that the resurgence of interest in the city, particularly for residential, with fewer available parcels and higher psf returns has justified building taller - because the higher you go, the more you lose (on a percentage basis) to infrastructure (HVAC, core/elevators, etc). It's damned expensive. It's pointless to say, "well, gee, Comcast built a really tall building in Philadelphia, we should have one!" It's really, really doubtful this is on the priority list of Boston Properties, nor should it be.

Certainly the Seaport is capped by FAA. But I'm not convinced the economics elsewhere in the city yet support supertalls. The primary reason we get shorter and fatter is not NIMBY's or shadows, it is because generally more, shorter and squatter buildings maximize return. Especially for commercial footprints (residential favors smaller floorplans/more windows, much to the delight of the fanboys). We get plateaus not because the BRA is neglecting its postcard duty or "caving" to NIMBYs but rather because that's what the spreadsheets dictate, and developers are running similar spreadsheets based on similar inputs and assumptions! If you want tall buildings, instead of railing at the NIMBYs you need to convince someone like Ned Johnson that it would be a good idea to build a phallic monument to himself (doubtful).

In this case, as noted above, the fact that construction has to maneuver around rail and subway tracks and a highway also adds some complications, limiting flexibility of the podium and the envelope for building up. The success of this building will be based overwhelmingly on the skill with which the first 50-100 feet are designed (depending on your starting point, since some is below ground). Yes, I would be hugely disappointed if the design and materials were taken from the Kensington or its ilk, but let's focus on what matters. Here, more than almost anywhere ... given the transport hub ... the streetscape and pedestrian interaction should dominate concerns.
 
There seems to be a frequent assumption here that economics would always dictate a taller tower if it weren't for those damned NIMBYs. Also an assumption that the powers that be (in this case the BRA and Boston Properties) should have the postcard-view skyline crescendo somewhere on their priority list. The first proposition is demonstrably false, the second is just silly.

The tallest towers, and especially the tall, slim towers that seem to induce fellatio among some members of this forum, aren't often built purely on the basis of economics, they are built because the "statement" itself is part of the point. This was the case for both the Pru (it was seen by city leaders as an important affirmation of Boston's resurgence after several bleak decades) and the JHT (which Boston-based JH felt important to be taller than the Pru, a Newark interloper). It's also true of the "signature" towers in many second-tier cities and entire clusters in places like Dubai. That is why the Pru and JHT have been the tallest in Boston for so long - their justification was based partly on the PR impact. It's only been recently that the resurgence of interest in the city, particularly for residential, with fewer available parcels and higher psf returns has justified building taller - because the higher you go, the more you lose (on a percentage basis) to infrastructure (HVAC, core/elevators, etc). It's damned expensive. It's pointless to say, "well, gee, Comcast built a really tall building in Philadelphia, we should have one!" It's really, really doubtful this is on the priority list of Boston Properties, nor should it be.

Certainly the Seaport is capped by FAA. But I'm not convinced the economics elsewhere in the city yet support supertalls. The primary reason we get shorter and fatter is not NIMBY's or shadows, it is because generally more, shorter and squatter buildings maximize return. Especially for commercial footprints (residential favors smaller floorplans/more windows, much to the delight of the fanboys). We get plateaus not because the BRA is neglecting its postcard duty or "caving" to NIMBYs but rather because that's what the spreadsheets dictate, and developers are running similar spreadsheets based on similar inputs and assumptions! If you want tall buildings, instead of railing at the NIMBYs you need to convince someone like Ned Johnson that it would be a good idea to build a phallic monument to himself (doubtful).

In this case, as noted above, the fact that construction has to maneuver around rail and subway tracks and a highway also adds some complications, limiting flexibility of the podium and the envelope for building up. The success of this building will be based overwhelmingly on the skill with which the first 50-100 feet are designed (depending on your starting point, since some is below ground). Yes, I would be hugely disappointed if the design and materials were taken from the Kensington or its ilk, but let's focus on what matters. Here, more than almost anywhere ... given the transport hub ... the streetscape and pedestrian interaction should dominate concerns.

Well said. I believe, Mr. Hood, you can now drop the mic.
 
Well said. I believe, Mr. Hood, you can now drop the mic.

Actually, pick it back up. I want an explanation for why Boston Properties is developing the (incredibly phallic) 1080' Transbay Tower in San Francisco. It even has a giant amount of wasted crown space on top. So why are they going over twice as tall there as they are willing to go here? (both this site and NS) Wouldn't the economics be against it?
 
Certainly the Seaport is capped by FAA. But I'm not convinced the economics elsewhere in the city yet support supertalls. The primary reason we get shorter and fatter is not NIMBY's or shadows, it is because generally more, shorter and squatter buildings maximize return.

Despite this, though, the BRA could demand height, and yet it doesn't. If the BRA had wanted to make approval on this site conditional on hitting 900', they could have. Then, it would have been up to BXP to either decline to propose, or to counter-offer. We're seeing this at Wintrop Square, where the BRA has essentially dictated that all of the proposals must be 725' tall to be considered.

Defining the shape and impact of the city's skyline is part of the BRA's job. Should it be the most important part? No. On the other hand, developers with a profit motive will make a lot of aesthetic or functional decisions that aren't in the best interest of the City and its residents. That's why we have regulators representing us.

In this case, we had a source claim that the reason the BRA didn't push for height here was because they didn't want to fight the battle with NIMBYs so soon after pushing Copley Place tower through. That's why it's relevant.

Actually, pick it back up. I want an explanation for why Boston Properties is developing the (incredibly phallic) 1080' Transbay Tower in San Francisco. It even has a giant amount of wasted crown space on top. So why are they going over twice as tall there as they are willing to go here? (both this site and NS) Wouldn't the economics be against it?

They're at 1,080' at Salesforce because that's what the area plan called for. The City of San Francisco asked them to go that high. Actually, they asked for 1,200'.
 
I see no reason why, for example, the Marriott and Westin could not have been 600' rather than 400'. Boston needs all the hotel rooms it can get anyway and it would have been more aesthetically pleasing from a skyline perspective.
 
I see no reason why, for example, the Marriott and Westin could not have been 600' rather than 400'. Boston needs all the hotel rooms it can get anyway and it would have been more aesthetically pleasing from a skyline perspective.

Boston (and particularly the area around Copley Place) was very different in 1984 when the Marriott & Westin were built.
 
I think StillInTheHood's made very good points though I believe that you are understating the effects of NIMBYs. In the 2000s, not so much recently thanks to the change in helm at the mayoral position, NIMBYs wielded much more power, resulting in projects being dragged for long period of time. I vaguely remember that the entire process, from conception to shovels took approximately 10 years compared to other cities which saw processes as short as 3 years. This makes financing more difficult and more costly as banks aren't willing to loan out money that they feel won't generate returns for more than a decade/might not even happen. The rising cost means that developers, from the onset of the process, must be more conservative in their proposal to minimize opposition and reduce the time it takes to break ground. In addition, I remember reading somewhere that well known architects took little interest in Boston because of how difficult it is to get any projects off the ground so we ended up with B-rated architects and B-rated architecture. It's no coincidence with the recent reduction in bureaucracy that architects like Gensler and Pelli are now proposing buildings in Boston.
 
There seems to be a frequent assumption here that economics would always dictate a taller tower if it weren't for those damned NIMBYs.....

....The tallest towers ...are built because the "statement" itself is part of the point. This was the case for both the Pru (it was seen by city leaders as an important affirmation of Boston's resurgence after several bleak decades) and the JHT (which Boston-based JH felt important to be taller than the Pru, a Newark interloper).

Still and others -- there seems an inordinate amount of revisionist history and economics running amok.

Remember when the Pru was underway circa from 1960 to 1965 it was the tallest office building [bar none] outside of NYC -- could it have been 100 feet taller -- of course.However, it was already such a huge step up from the old John Hancock [weather beacon] and the Customs House @ 500 ft. Also -- Beyond the tower itself the Pru complex was an enormous development retransforming the rail yard in the midst of the Back Bay and adding a whole community of apartments, a supermarket, the shops, the War Memorial Auditorium and the Sheraton with its own exit from the Turnpike -- this was clearly a one-of project -- not just for Boston, but for most of the US.

15 years later the Hancock topped the Pru in height, restoring local pride, and also delivered an iconic design for the ages. Its construction including the falling windows coupled with the problems in supporting all the buildings in the Back Bay whose foundations were disturbed -- once again -- a one of project not to be repeated.

Those two projects essentially exhausted the deep pockets real estate investors with few exceptions they went to smaller projects except for the folks who did Copley Place in the early 1980's. The Copley developers who did tackle a mini Pru in terms of hotels and shops, decided not to go tall for their office building, especially after the fiasco of "Park Plaza" circa the time of JH Tower.

What was left were the downtown banks and they dutifully did bank-style-boxes appropriate to their place in the pecking order with the Fed being tallest followed by Bank of Boston. Later came International Place and One Financial Center both of which un-Boston-like were developed on spec. The downtown plateau was the result of the "Vault" or the old-world-order -- you knew your place and you filled it. The only "Player" who never played was Ned and Fidelity -- everybody kept decade by decade watching as Fidelity bought up old buildings waiting for the Fidelity Tower -- but to no avail.

The real surprise was that no one knew how big Liberty Mutual really was as an insurer, until John Hancock got bought up by the Canadians. Then when Liberty Mutual decided to build they could have had what ever that they wanted as they were the last of the deep pockets locals -- they just chose not to break the established pecking order in the Back Bay. Ironically, now John Hancock coming home to the Back Bay is now following the Liberty Mutual new pecking order scaling and not even topping the Weather Beacon's height.
 

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