Boston Landing | New Balance Complex | Brighton

Kind of like the Sox putting up an AL East pennant this year - and to make it worse it wasn't even the end of the regular season before it went up.

Nah i don't quite see it that way; I see it as an overzealous renderer being a bit self-important about his/her work. If the team had nothing to do with it, then it ain't a real jinx. How can they be responsible for what some random person does?

I mean, how many ridiculous/over-the-top things do we see in renderings all the time? Everyone is enjoying themselves SO MUCH; all the restaurants are busy, the weather is perfect, etc etc...
Name one rendering you've ever seen that wasn't an idealization of real life? In fact, befitting the culture style of the modern architectural render would be a row of banners for the next ten years - I mean, with the world's most perfect practice facility such as this, of course they will win everything!
 
^ Could someone explain the shelter arrangement at an open air platform like this?

Why the huge gap between shelter areas? Why the separation of the first shelter from the access to the platform. Is there a reason why the shelter roof could not cover the entire platform. This is New England -- it rains here, it sleets here, it snows here pretty regularly.

Do we have some kind of weird puritanical penance mentality here? "Now let's not go making the public transportation too comfortable, otherwise people might want to use it. Make sure they are all cold and wet!"
 
^ Could someone explain the shelter arrangement at an open air platform like this?

Why the huge gap between shelter areas? Why the separation of the first shelter from the access to the platform. Is there a reason why the shelter roof could not cover the entire platform. This is New England -- it rains here, it sleets here, it snows here pretty regularly.

Do we have some kind of weird puritanical penance mentality here? "Now let's not go making the public transportation too comfortable, otherwise people might want to use it. Make sure they are all cold and wet!"

Commuter rail specs do not call for a complete canopy like rapid transit specs do. Because the frequencies are more limited, passengers are able to scatter from intermittent shelters to door positions with more advance notice. And, simply a real-world financial concession to platforms that are a default 800 ft. length instead of 300-400 ft. like Blue/Orange/Red. If/when we ever get Indigo Line service here, the shorter 2-5 car intra-128 sets are going to have door spots grouped a lot closer to the main canopy than those monster 7-8 car Worcester crowd-swallowers that need the full length of the platform.

And, yes...the Mass Architectural Board is a lot stricter than other state-level accessibility regs about default shelter coverage, so we're a lot better off than most commuter rail systems in that regard. You're still lucky to get a prefab bus shelter's worth of space on an upgraded NJ Transit or SEPTA commuter platform because those states simply don't go as far above-and-beyond the federal ADA law as Massachusetts does.


Ultimately, though, it's New Balance's decision how much above-spec they want to spend their own money for shelters at their station...so you're gonna have to ask them. What they are building is definitely above-and-beyond our already nationally well- above-average CR accessibility baseline, so not too much we can reasonably quibble with the end result.
 
This station looks great. Beeline, i love how you've got the 33 Harry A tower in perspective with the High Spine. i was thinking about this the other day, how a drone could get a few hundred feet up, and far enough back to get the BU towers, High Spine, Downtown and the Pierce. Maybe line up Harry A with Mass Ave and Huntington. It'd be cool.

the shorter 2-5 car intra-128 sets are going to have door spots grouped a lot closer to the main canopy than those monster 7-8 car Worcester crowd-swallowers that need the full length of the platform.

have you posted info about the short trainsets? i'm curious to know if they accelerate well compared to electric commuter trains.
 
have you posted info about the short trainsets? i'm curious to know if they accelerate well compared to electric commuter trains.

It doesn't matter what rolling stock gets used; Indigo will use much shorter sets than the full Worcester Line because it's short-turning at Riverside on higher frequencies. Right now 4-car trains are the system-default minimum, with anything shorter than that being considered a light engine move that has to operate at restricted speed. A couple of lines...most notably Fairmount...have a special 5-car minimum operating bulletins because 4-car trains don't properly shunt the signal system (i.e. one or two blocks will intermittently fail to detect a short set, so they have to risk-pad). That means that Fairmount will need indeterminate (but probably very minor) $$$ in signal tweaks before it can shorten to proper Indigo-size sets. Unless the PTC installation fixes that glitch without needing to touch the underlying cab signals.

Now...that doesn't mean you can't run shorter sets. Amtrak's Springfield Shuttle has historically done as little as ONE car behind a loco on particularly dead weekend slots, as the Springfield Line has always been configured for that. Metro North routinely does 2-3 car Danbury shuttles...so YMMV by commuter rail agency on what they maintain their equipment minimums to. The 4-car Purple Line minimum is just a blanket catch-all rule to square up all the varying-age signal systems on the T. Some lines would easily be able to be re-certified for 2- or 3-car trains in as-is condition if they did non-revenue shakedown tests to make sure the existing signal system shunted correctly 100 times out of 100. They just haven't ever had a compelling reason to do those tests for current schedules. Some lines with shitty-quality signaling would inevitably need to be upgraded, but Worcester--the shittiest by far--already needs that before it can ever absorb serious service increases, so that's not anything we don't already know we have to spend on re: basic bread-and-butter SGR every-priorities.


Any which way, it'll take 5 years minimum from RFP to fleet delivery to order any specialized DMU/EMU's...so in all practicality any service starts for Indigo service are going to have a bridge era where plain old push-pull sets with single-level cars (probably modded with door-mount tap surfaces for fare payment) have to cover the first 5 years of service scale-up. Maybe they only do once-every- 20-25 minute clock-facing frequencies instead of once-every-15. They can absolutely run the service; it just gets less cost-effective than an xMU past a certain level of frequencies. It's no big deal to run a 4-car set with the rear 2 cars closed off during non-peak slots. You're only carrying 1 conductor for the first 2 cars, and there's very little deadweight in the empty rear when they aren't carrying human flesh and aren't drawing any tangible electricity with interior lights/climate control turned off and nobody charging their gadgets at the electrical outlets.

The service isn't going to grow overnight, so starting on a ramp-up with the equipment you have is the most practical way to get it going. It's pointless to wait 5 years years just for a stupid vehicle order when the vehicle isn't the service and you can get the ridership growing on a meaningful curve by starting sooner. It just requires an ironclad commitment to keep ramping up service levels on a calendar schedule without pulling a cut-and-run at the very next budget crisis like the T is always wont to do with CR schedules. Stick to the plan and let the growth curve do its thing.


--------------------

As for what MU's? The canceled DMU RFP called for married-triplets, meaning they'd be put together 3 cars worth at a time...albeit with less seating and more doors than your typical single-level car since the interior would be optimized for fast-on/fast-off boarding.

If they go with EMU's (like they should) it would probably be married-pairs put together 2 at a time...the most typical EMU configuration. And they'd most definitely be bi-level, because fleet scale demands a common pool fleet with the Providence Line. Though probably 2 x 2 instead of 3 x 2 seating as a split-the-difference compromise. Plenty good enough even if the interior isn't quite as spot-on optimal for Indigo as the single-level DMU's. The vehicle performance is that much stratospherically better with EMU's than DMU's (which are not that much better than diesel that they're any sort of revolution). They'd never have a need to think twice about fleet fragmentation over chintzy seating config...just order a large common EMU pool fleet with Providence as the primary user, and built out system electrification from there letting the fleet scale compel more lines being wired up.
 
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As for what MU's? The canceled DMU RFP called for married-triplets, meaning they'd be put together 3 cars worth at a time...albeit with less seating and more doors than your typical single-level car since the interior would be optimized for fast-on/fast-off boarding.

If they go with EMU's (like they should) it would probably be married-pairs put together 2 at a time...the most typical EMU configuration. And they'd most definitely be bi-level, because fleet scale demands a common pool fleet with the Providence Line. Though probably 2 x 2 instead of 3 x 2 seating as a split-the-difference compromise. Plenty good enough even if the interior isn't quite as spot-on optimal for Indigo as the single-level DMU's. The vehicle performance is that much stratospherically better with EMU's than DMU's (which are not that much better than diesel that they're any sort of revolution). They'd never have a need to think twice about fleet fragmentation over chintzy seating config...just order a large common EMU pool fleet with Providence as the primary user, and built out system electrification from there letting the fleet scale compel more lines being wired up.

F-Line, I was thinking about this today as I waited for a mid-day Greenbush train at the crossing in North Scituate. The Old Colony Lines are all high-level platforms. Mid-day Greenbush and weekend trains are fairly empty. Could they ever run DMU service with 2 or 3 cars and achieve greater frequency? Or is the single track system the limiting factor for increased frequency of service? Thanks!
 
F-Line, I was thinking about this today as I waited for a mid-day Greenbush train at the crossing in North Scituate. The Old Colony Lines are all high-level platforms. Mid-day Greenbush and weekend trains are fairly empty. Could they ever run DMU service with 2 or 3 cars and achieve greater frequency? Or is the single track system the limiting factor for increased frequency of service? Thanks!

No. Too many branches to feed off one mainline, and that single-track will never 100% be solved in Quincy even if they do the megaproject to fix Savin Hill. The best you're looking at post- Savin Hill is maybe a half-hourly all-day short-turn at Brockton where the demand exists and linking the T with the BAT district bus terminal has major network-effect coattails across a whole swath of upper South Shore.


No, DMU's would do absolutely bupkis to change the game there. Most people riding from outside 128...anywhere outside 128...are going outer-stop to terminal with butts planted firmly in seat the whole trip. There aren't enough purely inter-/intrazone trips meriting a more rapid transit-like seating arrangement, so running Indigo-configured DMU's past 128 would make them piggish loss leaders on capacity. Use the right seating arrangement for the job.

Performance difference diesel vs. self-propelled diesel is not that much better; you have to get into electrics to make any sort of quantum leap over either fossil fuel mode. The value proposition of buying Indigo-only DMU's is that they comfortably turn around up to 5 minutes faster end-of-line than the absolute rushed-fastest you could turn around a push-pull set, and the seating arrangement is optimized for quick-on/quick-off trips. Therefore, as frequencies cross a certain threshold you're going to get better cost-benefit out of running MU's and push-pulls are going to cross into very unfavorable cost territory. The complete opposite is true if you run inside-128 configured DMU's on conventional dense peak/diffuse off-peak schedules to 495. The wider stop spacing out to 495 wastes most of the start/stop performance difference, the turnaround time is moot because the headways are longer, and you have to waste so many self-propelled vehicles in one train to replicate a rush-hour crowd-swallower that they'd cost 3x as much as a push-pull to operate the times of day the 495 schedules are densest. DMU's are not a universal solvent, so beware the overhype (in the same vein as the "BRT is just like a trolley on tires!" hype era was grossly overinflated). They're the right tool for a specific job, and the T's unacted-upon proposals pretty firmly articulated what that right-fit job was and was not. Push-pulls are the right tool for a specific job: 495 peak-oriented service. Only when you get to the leaps-and-bounds performance upgrade of EMU's do you achieve "every-vehicle" parity in one package. And that's why if we ever do order EMU's they'll be in one 2 x 2 seats bi-level pool fleet for both Providence and lighter-duty Fairmount/Riverside + RIDOT intrastate. No need to sweat the difference in seating needs when the performance is so orders-or-magnitude better that you just bank first on the unit scale of a unified fleet and worry about niceties like subway-style seating one purchase generation later when you've got enough electrified lines to start differentiating.
 
You're still lucky to get a prefab bus shelter's worth of space on an upgraded NJ Transit .

What, no. Not at all. What.

This is what a new build NJ Transit station looks like (opened May 2016)

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/jZD61PmBeo0/maxresdefault.jpg
http://archive.northjersey.com/polo...n/derivatives/box_780/051916-cn-newtrains.jpg

JeffDowntown, you are correct in that the lack of shelters are an effort to suppress ridership.

This is what a shelter should look like.

http://imgur.com/a/yvX8b
 
What, no. Not at all. What.

This is what a new build NJ Transit station looks like (opened May 2016)

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/jZD61PmBeo0/maxresdefault.jpg
http://archive.northjersey.com/polo...n/derivatives/box_780/051916-cn-newtrains.jpg

So is this (2003), this (2009), this (2009), and this (2008) on NJT. So is this (2011), this (2013), this (2011), this (2007), this (2013), this (2015), this (2013), and this (2005) on SEPTA.

Neither state/transit agency has codified standards for how much shelter coverage is required on a platform. The Mass Architectural Board requires 150 ft. worth of canopy on a new-construction 800 ft. commuter rail platform, as well as all access ramps to the platform covered by canopy. 1-car mini-highs on clearance routes have to be completely canopied. Read it yourself: https://www.mbta.com/uploadedfiles/..._and_Construction/Guide-to-Access.Section2.pd. That's more canopy coverage than gets specced for every outdoor Green Line stop.

JeffDowntown, you are correct in that the lack of shelters are an effort to suppress ridership.
This is an insane assertion not backed up by any evidence. You either need to quit trolling with untruths or take the damn tinfoil off your head. :rolleyes:

This is what a shelter should look like.

http://imgur.com/a/yvX8b
On a completely non-accessible platform! Wonderfully cromulent example.
 
I just realized I forgot to ask. Right after the grocery store theres a huge building going up. Huge. It was having prefabricated boxes dropped into the second floor as I was driving by. It looks like its as long as the cruise ship building but theyre dropping prefabbed wood sections on top of a steel floor plate. I dont know what this project is or how big its going to be but it looks like its going to be very noticeable. Does anyone know what this is? Its on Braintree st.
 
So is this (2003), this (2009), this (2009), and this (2008) on NJT. So is this (2011), this (2013), this (2011), this (2007), this (2013), this (2015), this (2013), and this (2005) on SEPTA.

Neither state/transit agency has codified standards for how much shelter coverage is required on a platform. The Mass Architectural Board requires 150 ft. worth of canopy on a new-construction 800 ft. commuter rail platform, as well as all access ramps to the platform covered by canopy. 1-car mini-highs on clearance routes have to be completely canopied. Read it yourself: https://www.mbta.com/uploadedfiles/..._and_Construction/Guide-to-Access.Section2.pd. That's more canopy coverage than gets specced for every outdoor Green Line stop.

This is an insane assertion not backed up by any evidence. You either need to quit trolling with untruths or take the damn tinfoil off your head. :rolleyes:

On a completely non-accessible platform! Wonderfully cromulent example.

If the plan is to move this station toward rapid transit frequencies in the future, wouldn't you be smart to plan a more rapid transit oriented design? You know that stupid idea of future proofing? I mean, this is not Prides Crossing!

If you really want to get people out of cars, then you need to think about creature comfort at stations, as well as frequencies. It is way more comfortable sitting in Pike traffic in your private single occupancy vehicle, than it is freezing your ass off on a commuter rail platform in cold rain.
 
I just realized I forgot to ask. Right after the grocery store theres a huge building going up. Huge. It was having prefabricated boxes dropped into the second floor as I was driving by.Its on Braintree st.

I believe that would be the 75 Braintree project.
 
So is this (2003), this (2009), this (2009), and this (2008) on NJT. So is this (2011), this (2013), this (2011), this (2007), this (2013), this (2015), this (2013), and this (2005) on SEPTA.

Neither state/transit agency has codified standards for how much shelter coverage is required on a platform. The Mass Architectural Board requires 150 ft. worth of canopy on a new-construction 800 ft. commuter rail platform, as well as all access ramps to the platform covered by canopy. 1-car mini-highs on clearance routes have to be completely canopied. Read it yourself: https://www.mbta.com/uploadedfiles/..._and_Construction/Guide-to-Access.Section2.pd. That's more canopy coverage than gets specced for every outdoor Green Line stop.

On a completely non-accessible platform! Wonderfully cromulent example.

1. No one is talking about SEPTA.
2. Meadowlands gets used 20 times a year for games at the stadium.
3. Youve clearly never been to Secaucus, which looks like this, and is bigger than almost ever MBTA station
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3044/2881864768_bb867b0656_o.jpg
4. Mount Arlington does show a standard NJTransit design, which is a long shelter inbound, a short shelter outbound. I guess the idea is that people wait going inbound but almost nobody is waiting to go outbound
5. RED HERRING. We are talking about shelter coverage, not ADA
6. RED HERRING. We are talking about new build commuter rail, not 100 year old green line "stations"

Lets remind you what your original statement was:

You're still lucky to get a prefab bus shelter's worth of space on an upgraded NJ Transit .

You were wrong. Period.

I know you have difficulty with that concept, but its time to sit down.
 
If the plan is to move this station toward rapid transit frequencies in the future, wouldn't you be smart to plan a more rapid transit oriented design? You know that stupid idea of future proofing? I mean, this is not Prides Crossing!

What is so hard to understand here when the "rapid transit oriented" Indigo sets will stop under the canopy and the super-long Worcester tyrannosaurus sets that are "very much not rapid transit oriented" will not? The Indigo trains will run 2-4 cars long and have door slots closest to the canopy and the covered exits. The stop is not going to 'graduate' off the push-pull schedule the second Indigo gets implemented. There's thousands of jobs going to be anchored at that site. NB, WGBH, and others want this in part because they can tap MetroWest hirees. The Worcester Line service layer cake is going to be so thick with hyper-local Indigos, local-local Framinghams, semi-expresses, Worcester super-expresses, and Amtrak intercity that NB is going to appear on larger variety of long-haul schedules over time...not smaller. The only evolution going on here is "more like the New Haven Line with each passing year".


Further...150 is the mandatory minimum in the Mass Architectural Board spec. The MAAB's accessibility mandatory minimum that the T conforms to, not the T's own homegrown policy. The MAAB's job is to enforce public access policy; it is not their job to dabble in transit policy like "X feet of canopy for ridership Y ridership on Z schedule densities" on a sliding scale. If they were doing that, they'd get picked apart in court challenges by every building developer looking for an ADA loophole with funny math about their pedestrian traffic. They set the mandatory minimums by mode, not schedule. So when the same mode has to serve Yawkey and Shirley, mandating a rigid 800 ft. of platform (to cover any systemwide train length on the mode) with matching length of canopy means nobody ever attempts to fix the non-ADA backlog across the system because that's too extreme a cost premium to force-fit across the system. And then we get worse accessibility as a result, and the MAAB has failed at its stated job.

Anyone can build >150 ft. if they want, and in this case that was NB's self-funding decision...not the T's...to do it at X ft. There's no need to complain about abstract perfectionism in this case. Point to the actual problem of execution here with who's fronting the money, and why it's that important for every train--RT-like and not-at-all RT-like--that'll be using this stop. Also, since commuter rail mode already gets relatively luxurious canopy standards compared to bus or surface light rail (which gets categorized like high-use bus)...if you're going to complain about rigid standards and what is or isn't getting enough attention, you're picking the wrongest mode to bitch about because bus/LRT is the ridership load-bearer that needs way way better shelters.
 
1. No one is talking about SEPTA.

Cited as relevance to other states' (plural) standards. So comment on New Jersey's.
2. Meadowlands gets used 20 times a year for games at the stadium.
3. Youve clearly never been to Secaucus, which looks like this, and is bigger than almost ever MBTA station
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3044/2881864768_bb867b0656_o.jpg
Strawman. We are talking about state-level accessibility standards, not ridership. You point to the difference in mandated accessibility coverage in those examples. Exceptions do not prove the rule any more than selective interpretation turns an MAAB mandatory minimum into a mandatory maximum.
Mount Arlington does show a standard NJTransit design, which is a long shelter inbound, a short shelter outbound. I guess the idea is that people wait going inbound but almost nobody is waiting to go outbound
There. There would be the proof that MA has stricter standards. This is exactly what I was referring to. No pictures of above-and-beyond canopies built by-choice proves malice in the mandatory minimums. YOU are the one alleging a vast conspiracy to suppress ridership via too-short canopy lengths. Square that with MA's tougher laws, please, instead of posting more pretty pictures of Secaucus. You're the one who made the charge of malfeasance.
5. RED HERRING. We are talking about shelter coverage, not ADA
Bullshit. You replied to a discussion about accessibility regs, which the canopies are part of. And then alleged ridership suppression conspiracy in NB following those regs. What is a bigger detriment to accessibility than malicious suppression of ridership? You went there...you be the one to explain that charge.
6. RED HERRING. We are talking about new build commuter rail, not 100 year old green line "stations"
Every ADA'd light rail station is a new build. All of those '00s retrofits went under the MAAB's new-construction regs...with shelters. B/C/D aren't under the same enclosed/prepayment regs as GLX. That's the loophole to question before inventing vast commuter rail conspiracies.



You were wrong. Period.

I know you have difficulty with that concept, but its time to sit down.
Then provide some evidence of your own, pal, instead of chucking up assorted irrelevant garbage to duck having to back up your own assertions of some grand conspiracy to slew-foot accessibility.

This "NO U!" act is the most banal of trolling. Don't levy a provocative charge if you're completely unwilling to back it up with evidence on-point to your own charge.
 

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