Crazy Transit Pitches

I know there's a post buried somewhere on this forum about a potential light-rail extension north from Rt 16 (assuming TIP status holds). Anyone have an idea where I can find or help with the following:

What's the condition of the NH Main ROW up to Woburn? 2-track/4-track? Where are the problem spots if the MBTA wanted to pump the GL up in a modern-day D-style service expansion as far as Woburn?

Is that begging the same system-wide problems that occurred with the highland branch extension (and to some extent, messy scheduling circumstances that still govern Green Line ops)? Is Woburn trip even reasonably feasible (commute time) with light-rail or would a heavy-rail conversion have to eat up GLX at some distant point in the future?
 
CantabAmager said:
I know there's a post buried somewhere on this forum about a potential light-rail extension north from Rt 16 (assuming TIP status holds). Anyone have an idea where I can find or help with the following:

What's the condition of the NH Main ROW up to Woburn? 2-track/4-track? Where are the problem spots if the MBTA wanted to pump the GL up in a modern-day D-style service expansion as far as Woburn?

Is that begging the same system-wide problems that occurred with the highland branch extension (and to some extent, messy scheduling circumstances that still govern Green Line ops)? Is Woburn trip even reasonably feasible (commute time) with light-rail or would a heavy-rail conversion have to eat up GLX at some distant point in the future?
Click to expand...

F-Line had a great, recent analysis in the GLX thread The best stuff is in post 1468, but you probably want to start reading at 1467.

ROW is 2 CWR Mainline tracks with some scruffy unsignalized sidings on a plenty-wide strip of land.

While getting through Winchester Center is tricky (given the raised station and viaduct) The conclusion there was that GLX made sense as far as Winchester Center with CR operating Lowell-Woburn (and then express inboard of that, with perhaps an infill CR stop at Tufts, Gilman, or Washington St)

I'd nominate putting a single GLX station *between* the existing Wedgemere and Winchester Center (re-using their parking lots, but not spending on two stations and all kinds of bridgework) and keeping Winchester Center as a CR stop end-to-end with a new GLX station.

Wedgemere is a pure park-and-ride: once its lots fill up, there's no reason to use the station, and zero chance for TOD. I can't see lavishing a real/whole station on it alone, given that its northern end is just 2000' south of Winchester Center's southern end.

If you had to do two stations, I'd do New Wedgemere *south* of the current one (and demand a pedestrian connection to Grove Place) and New Winchester Center *north* of the current one (and ensure a connection to Skillings Road) That'd just get you a more-normal 3500' separation between the two.
 
Last edited:
A station in the wye between Skillings Road and the NH main would also give room for a nice little yard to feed the line.
 
@Arlington @CantabAmager The big issue with extending the GLX past Rt 16 is cost. New bridge, eliminating the grade crossing at West Medford, etc. Not impossible but very expensive. You need to have the ridership to justify it and so far it doesn't look like you would. Wobourn would be a better terminal for the GL than Winchester but that's pretty much impossible now that the ROW is built up.
 
Another reason why GLX should have been a DMU scheme. Just add a continuous third track, and even a fourth perhaps in some spots.
 
BostonUrbEx said:
Another reason why GLX should have been a DMU scheme. Just add a continuous third track, and even a fourth perhaps in some spots.
Click to expand...

BussesAin'tTrains said:
Huh? Explain more please.
Click to expand...

The DMU's advantage would have been to simply drop DMU stops on the Fitchburg and Lowell Lines *exactly* where the GLX stops are going. Huge cost advantage, but the problem would have been that *everyone* would be forced to change at North Station.

It probably would have had good riders-per-dollar and served the immediate neighborhoods well, but isn't quite as one-seat awesome as the GLX from Somerville to Boston, and it wouldn't have amounted to service-worth-connecting-to from the Arlington-Winchester ring of burbs.

F-Line warns that the Bus+GLX, if done right (frequent service out Winthrop St from Medford to Winchester, or new service on Grove St), would tank CR ridership.
 
Was DMU ever considered in the long-planning process for the GLX? Or is this just a hindsight, woulda coulda shoulda sorta thing?
 
BussesAin'tTrains said:
Was DMU ever considered in the long-planning process for the GLX? Or is this just a hindsight, woulda coulda shoulda sorta thing?
Click to expand...
Congressman Capuano had a late-in-the-game "how do I deliver something" kinda panic attack in December 2011, where he couldn't be sure that Obama and Patrick would be succeeded by transit-friendly successors, and the gas-tax-hike/transpo-bond was going nowhere after being floated in April 2011 (it finally got passed in 2013).

Capuano proposed CR stops at Union Sq and Ball Sq. and floated DMU service

Even though his plan was pretty much universally reviled (from left and right) I suspect that his "this is what half a loaf looks like" plan helped steel transportation users'/advocates' courage to insist on the whole package.
 
To be fair a few different options were considered including extending the Blue Line from Gov't Center up to West Medford. Green Line was always the top priority but any good planner will look at all options.

Keep in mind the the GLX was mandated because the state was sued (in part) over increased pollution levels as a result of the Big Dig so an electric light rail transit line was always going to be favored over a diesel chugging commuter rail line.
 
vanshnookenraggen said:
To be fair a few different options were considered including extending the Blue Line from Gov't Center up to West Medford. Green Line was always the top priority but any good planner will look at all options.
Click to expand...

Why the Blue Line though? It would make much more sense to me to send an Orange Line spur up that way.
 
CR shuttles (likely additional Anderson RTC turns with a few additional stops in Somerville and Medford) were analyzed in the Beyond Lechmere study, as were on-road and on-ROW BRT options. Proper GLX kicked the asses of any alternatives.
 
vanshnookenraggen said:
To be fair a few different options were considered including extending the Blue Line from Gov't Center up to West Medford. Green Line was always the top priority but any good planner will look at all options.
Click to expand...
You are very fair, and the planners (MPO) did their best to consider other options, but two other factors greatly limited their practical choice set:
- The CLF-Mass 1990 Foy-Salvucci Settlement, which specifically demanded/agreed that it be the Green Line extended to Medford Hillside. (and subsequent SIPs). While IIRC the late 1990s/ early 2000s saw the Blue Line considered (were they trying to save $ by combining with Red-Blue?) by 2004 only Green was an option.
- FRA-compliant DMUs were not a serious option until they slowly and painfully emerged 2006 - 2011, by which time essentially all the particulars of the GLX were set, including that there'd be faregates and headhouses.

* And, frankly, since we are still "seriously considering" DMUs, it kind of shows that DMUs, when you come down to it, are still not something you want seriously considered if you want a transit line built by 2020.
 
deh74 said:
Why the Blue Line though? It would make much more sense to me to send an Orange Line spur up that way.
Click to expand...

It would until you consider the high ridership at Sullivan, Wellington, and Malden. This is the heart of the OL North. If there was a West Medford branch the OL would have its service halved right before these stations and that would totally fuck up service on the Oak Grove branch.

All the traffic on the GL is coming from the west so a northwest extension doesn't impact existing traffic. Also since the GL was built for multiple branches it has a lot more flexibility than the OL.

The only way you could have an OL branch is to Medford Center since it would branch off after Wellington; bus traffic could then be split between Medford and Malden so the service changes to the Oak Grove branch wouldn't hurt so much. But then with such a short branch which would need to use eminent domain to recapture the ROW the costs probably wouldn't justify the branch at all.

Blue would have worked because, like the GL, it would have had a much more balanced ridership load. But it would have required a costly new tunnel from GC to Somerville (or at least to Science Park). This would have also curtailed all GL service to North Station and put more pressure on Gov't Center as all those new BL riders would need to transfer; the GL hits more spots downtown and would mean a one seat ride for most commuters.
 
It would only cripple the Orange Line if it had the current car numbers. With a full complement of cars the OL is equipped to run at a much higher frequency than it currently manages. Could probably get three minute headways in the main branch and six minute headways on the branches at peak. Orange or Green always seemed like the options that made the most sense to me.
 
Arlington said:
F-Line had a great, recent analysis in the GLX thread The best stuff is in post 1468, but you probably want to start reading at 1467.

ROW is 2 CWR Mainline tracks with some scruffy unsignalized sidings on a plenty-wide strip of land.

While getting through Winchester Center is tricky (given the raised station and viaduct) The conclusion there was that GLX made sense as far as Winchester Center with CR operating Lowell-Woburn (and then express inboard of that, with perhaps an infill CR stop at Tufts, Gilman, or Washington St)

I'd nominate putting a single GLX station *between* the existing Wedgemere and Winchester Center (re-using their parking lots, but not spending on two stations and all kinds of bridgework) and keeping Winchester Center as a CR stop end-to-end with a new GLX station.

Wedgemere is a pure park-and-ride: once its lots fill up, there's no reason to use the station, and zero chance for TOD. I can't see lavishing a real/whole station on it alone, given that its northern end is just 2000' south of Winchester Center's southern end.

If you had to do two stations, I'd do New Wedgemere *south* of the current one (and demand a pedestrian connection to Grove Place) and New Winchester Center *north* of the current one (and ensure a connection to Skillings Road) That'd just get you a more-normal 3500' separation between the two.
Click to expand...

Perfect, thank you! It was your comment above about re-jiggering the Union Sq tangent bus route that jogged my memory about doing to same on a future GLX+.
 
BussesAin'tTrains said:
It would only cripple the Orange Line if it had the current car numbers. With a full complement of cars the OL is equipped to run at a much higher frequency than it currently manages. Could probably get three minute headways in the main branch and six minute headways on the branches at peak. Orange or Green always seemed like the options that made the most sense to me.
Click to expand...

Undeniably true, but Haymarket north is also a major contributor to ridership, unlike the outer Red (exception for Alewife extension)/Green D. I've heard more than enough stories of Sullivan riders having to watch a sardine can pull in and pull out without anyone being able to get on board - anything that degrades service out there (even if only potentially) is no-go from the start.
 
Arlington said:
The DMU's advantage would have been to simply drop DMU stops on the Fitchburg and Lowell Lines *exactly* where the GLX stops are going. Huge cost advantage, but the problem would have been that *everyone* would be forced to change at North Station.
Click to expand...

Unless NSRL gets built.

The real problem with DMU/EMU is that the MBTA constantly wants to resist change! Oh wah, we'd have to learn how to maintain a new vehicle. Never mind the fact that it could potentially be launched as a network with a larger fleet than anything we currently have. Oh wah, we'd have to change the way we think about fares on railroad lines. Never mind the fact that the current system sucks. There's zero imagination and zero conceptualization of what could be on a grander scale than one-project-at-a-time.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top