Crazy Transit Pitches

According to some things I've read (I'll try to find them and link to them later) it'll take six years to build the Red-Blue Connector. SIX YEARS!! Why in seven hells would it take that long to dig a 1500 foot tunnel? This can't be right, can it? Will someone please explain to me why it would take so long?
 
Deetroyt said:
According to some things I've read (I'll try to find them and link to them later) it'll take six years to build the Red-Blue Connector. SIX YEARS!! Why in seven hells would it take that long to dig a 1500 foot tunnel? This can't be right, can it? Will someone please explain to me why it would take so long?
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It's a civil and structural engineering nightmare.
 
It'll only take that long if there's money to do it. And right now there isn't.
 
Hell, you'd probably need a year just to find and move all the utilities under the street. Then you'd have to build a terminal under the current station and traffic circle while keeping them both running. Not to mention the terminal would be built under made-ground with a high water table without flooding the place.

Yeah, looks much easier on paper.
 
vanshnookenraggen said:
Nothing like that. What you might be thinking of is the third track used for turning trains at North Station but that isn't designed for expansion. Also the original North Station (elevated) had a loop at street level for similar service. But there isn't any unused spur for expansion.
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There's two tracks, used for turning back C Line trains. They eventually end at a wall. Theoretically, this wall could be punched through to build a tunnel.
 
BostonUrbEx said:
There's two tracks, used for turning back C Line trains. They eventually end at a wall. Theoretically, this wall could be punched through to build a tunnel.
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The two Green Line turn-back tracks beyond North Station do descend down to the bumper posts, so that trains terminating there do not have to change-ends on a steep incline, as they would if the turn-back tracks had been built on the same level as the two main line through tracks. However just beyond the Green Line portal is the auto tunnel that proceeds under the commuter rail tracks and joins 93 south, that might present an immediate obstacle for extending the turn-back tracks into any new light rail tunnel.
 
winstonoboogie said:
However just beyond the Green Line portal is the auto tunnel that proceeds under the commuter rail tracks and joins 93 south, that might present an immediate obstacle for extending the turn-back tracks into any new light rail tunnel.
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If the future Green line tunnel extensions turned south to follow the east side of Storrow Drive (in front of Mass General Hospital), they could avoid the highway underpass and continue on as a Riverbank subway,
 
Ok so I'm not crazy then, this has been bugging me for awhile. I wonder what the benefit would be of running a second green line through downtown in the Riverbank subway. There could be all the transfers assuming the blue line goes to MGH, there would be a blue/red transfer at MGH and an orange line transfer at north station.

Maybe this could be built and the central subway/glx could be converted to heavy rail which takes over 1 or 2 branches of the current green line. The street running branches could use the Riverbank subway as a means of relieving some stress off the four core transfer stations. (MGH would become a huge transfer point if this did happen)

Obviously there isn't a ton of demand for this to happen now, but if the central subway got so congested that heavy rail was inevitable, this would be a great way to still do the street running branches while still hitting the other 3 lines for direct transfers.
 
I'm not sure how a glx riverbank subway coming from North Station would get through the Longfellow. Those piling for the bridge are huge and deep. If Red-Blue never happens it Green could weave around them to the east , then back to the Storrow footprint, but if Red-Blue happens, Blue's tail tracks will be split around either side of the bridge footings.
 
Of all the worthy projects, this forum chooses to obsess over Riverbank Subway. In the real world (where money is a huge influence), it would make more sense to parallel the central subway via the Mass Pike than down Beacon St. I just don't understand why it constantly comes up over and over. Anyone else feel this way? Or am I the only one who prefers to see many other projects before Riverbank Subway is ever talked about?
 
The Riverbank subway comes up because the Green Line central subway is overloaded and needs a parallel transit line from Kenmore Square to Downtown. Riverbank would be a relatively cheap way to do it: far less utilities to relocate.
 
BostonUrbEx said:
Of all the worthy projects, this forum chooses to obsess over Riverbank Subway. In the real world (where money is a huge influence), it would make more sense to parallel the central subway via the Mass Pike than down Beacon St. I just don't understand why it constantly comes up over and over. Anyone else feel this way? Or am I the only one who prefers to see many other projects before Riverbank Subway is ever talked about?
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I agree. I usually see Riverbank come up as a way to extend the Blue Line past Charles/MGH. Not for the Green Line.

Charlie_mta said:
The Riverbank subway comes up because the Green Line central subway is overloaded and needs a parallel transit line from Kenmore Square to Downtown. Riverbank would be a relatively cheap way to do it: far less utilities to relocate.
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Fairly cheap to build comparing to tunneling down Stuart Street or Beacon Street or something, but still an enormous political battle to get rid of Storrow. Also it's easier to build as Blue than as Green because of the Longfellow Bridge footing obstacle I mentioned earlier. Riverbank also doesn't serve the corridor as well as something on the southern side of BBY.

I'm a fan of the Green to TMC via Tremont Tunnel and then to Back Bay by running along Marginal Road and along the Pike retaining wall, sinking the Huntington Ave line and connecting it with the D at Brookline Village.
 
BussesAin'tTrains said:
I'm a fan of the Green to TMC via Tremont Tunnel and then to Back Bay by running along Marginal Road and along the Pike retaining wall, sinking the Huntington Ave line and connecting it with the D at Brookline Village.
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And Green from TMC along Marginal/Pike Retaining wall, up thru Chinatown to the South Station Busway to the Seaport.

This give you a complete alternative Green Line path across downtown.
 
JeffDowntown said:
And Green from TMC along Marginal/Pike Retaining wall, up thru Chinatown to the South Station Busway to the Seaport.

This give you a complete alternative Green Line path across downtown.
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You got it. It's all in my fantasy map a couple pages back.
 
More than half of the riverbank subways potential service area would be water, or a park. The rest is by and large low density brownstones, occupied by people who are probably walking or being driven to work. The only stop that would make sense is at the Hatch shell, since you get some Beacon Hill traffic as well, and one at Mass Ave since it's built up more over there.

This works well for the Blue Line, since it would serve as an express bypass. It wouldn't work with the green, which needs local stops and bread and butter is serving the High Spine.

Extending the Huntington Subway to Brookline Village in the west and the disused tunnels out of Boylston in the east makes infinitely more sense to do something about the Green Lines capacity woes. It still serves the high spine, and takes advantage of the *relatively* easy to dig in soil next to the Pike, which is presumably free of undocumented utilities, boats, and buildings. You also have the opportunity to tie it in to the Transitway.
 
I agree: a Green Line under Marginal Road along the north wall of the Pike, and a Blue Line extension in a Riverbank subway.

What I was objecting to was the categorical dismissal of a Riverbank subway, but I do agree that the Mass Pike routing for a second Green Line is better.
 
This is partially a proposal and partially an invitation for proposals from the board. These are similar proposals about Malden and Lynn. Both of these cities are becoming more attractive places to live, and both have good bones. I hope, with the assistance of good transit, these cities could become satellite commercial centers. These are places where I have not spent much time, and I am hoping to elicit responses from people familiar with transit and these areas.

Malden:

A city of 59,000 and growing. With a population density of 12,000/sq. mile, Malden is 70% more populous than Chelsea and more than twice as dense as Worcester. The point being that this is a dense, sizable city located within 5 miles of downtown Boston.

Proposal - Build an infill Orange Line stop between Malden Center and Wellington, located at Medford St, called "Edgeworth." This stop will give Malden full-build in terms of transportation to/from Boston, but leave it lacking in local transportation.

Question - How would you improve transit within Malden and the "Malden area?" Assume this is a semi-possible, crazy transit pitch. As in, you have $750 million, 15-years and political will on your side. What would you do?


Lynn:

A city of 90,000 and growing. With a population density of 8400/sq. mile, Lynn is more populous than Somerville and denser than Worcester. The point being that Lynn is also a dense, sizable city located within 10 miles of downtown Boston.

Proposal - Build a DMU line from North Station to the North Shore along the Newburyport/Rockport Line, with stops in Charlestown, Everett, Chelsea, Revere, Lynn, etc. Let's assume the stops in Lynn are "Riverworks" (with TOD), "West Lynn," "Central Square-Lynn Station" and "East Lynn." This will give Lynn full-build in terms of transportation to/from Boston, but leave it lacking in local transportation.

Question - How would you improve transit within Lynn and the "Lynn area?" Assume this is a semi-possible, crazy transit pitch. As in, you have $750 million, 15-years and political will on your side. What would you do?
 
bigeman312 said:
This is partially a proposal and partially an invitation for proposals from the board. These are similar proposals about Malden and Lynn. Both of these cities are becoming more attractive places to live, and both have good bones. I hope, with the assistance of good transit, these cities could become satellite commercial centers. These are places where I have not spent much time, and I am hoping to elicit responses from people familiar with transit and these areas.

Malden:

A city of 59,000 and growing. With a population density of 12,000/sq. mile, Malden is 70% more populous than Chelsea and more than twice as dense as Worcester. The point being that this is a dense, sizable city located within 5 miles of downtown Boston.

Proposal - Build an infill Orange Line stop between Malden Center and Wellington, located at Medford St, called "Edgeworth." This stop will give Malden full-build in terms of transportation to/from Boston, but leave it lacking in local transportation.

Question - How would you improve transit within Malden and the "Malden area?" Assume this is a semi-possible, crazy transit pitch. As in, you have $750 million, 15-years and political will on your side. What would you do?


Lynn:

A city of 90,000 and growing. With a population density of 8400/sq. mile, Lynn is more populous than Somerville and denser than Worcester. The point being that Lynn is also a dense, sizable city located within 10 miles of downtown Boston.

Proposal - Build a DMU line from North Station to the North Shore along the Newburyport/Rockport Line, with stops in Charlestown, Everett, Chelsea, Revere, Lynn, etc. Let's assume the stops in Lynn are "Riverworks" (with TOD), "West Lynn," "Central Square-Lynn Station" and "East Lynn." This will give Lynn full-build in terms of transportation to/from Boston, but leave it lacking in local transportation.

Question - How would you improve transit within Lynn and the "Lynn area?" Assume this is a semi-possible, crazy transit pitch. As in, you have $750 million, 15-years and political will on your side. What would you do?
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I dont think Medford St is dense enough to really warrant a T station. However, it wouldn't hurt to add one and it's very close to the new rail trail so could become some sort of multimodal thing. As an aside, I think all of Malden Ctr needs to be redone, since the main roads all have a very 1950s urban renewal feel to them.. and when the time finally comes to redevelop the area along the river (next your "Edgeworth"), I hope they do it right and not more that bland, 128-ish River's Edge soullessness that they did around Wellington.

Transit-wise, the east/west Rt 60 corridor is where the need is for Malden. It would be tempting to take away the bike trail and put in light rail, but I think the real benefit might be connecting Malden Center to Medford Center. Its only a couple miles. Rt 60 in Malden Ctr itself is probably wide enough for LR for a half mile, but it would either require massive eminent domain east of there, or a subway - and it just isn't dense enough to justify either. Just like most of the Boston area - narrow, inadequate roads and medium, but consistent density, enough for horrible traffic but not enough to justify rail transit projects. You could also run a LR from Rt 1 along the bike path, into Malden Ctr and then have it cross the Malden River just below Medford St to run along the unused spur north of Wellington, and then use some eminent domain to run it right into Medford (between Washington and Magoun Ave). But to make it work you'd have to connect it to the GLX by tunneling under College Ave. I still think that would be really cool, though.

I definitely don't think Lynn needs anything more than a direct and rapid connection to Boston. DMU would suffice, I guess, but Blue Line would be ideal. Otherwise, it's a dense city in the core but really it's ringed with a lot of suburbia so I dont think it justifiably needs anything else (like an east west connection to Malden or Saugus).
 
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