Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail (South Coast Rail)

[wicked]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

Love reading your posts, F-Line. It's like you're a writer for a living, or something.

 

[BostonUrbEx]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

Love reading your posts, F-Line. It's like you're a writer for a living, or something.

I was once convinced that F-Line was in fact Rich Davey himself. As crazy as that sounds, I thought at the time I had enough evidence to make the argument. But alas, that was shattered. Who is this mysterious F-Line? We may never know.

...although I've been told he's a prominent BSRA member, supposedly.

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

I was once convinced that F-Line was in fact Rich Davey himself. As crazy as that sounds, I thought at the time I had enough evidence to make the argument. But alas, that was shattered. Who is this mysterious F-Line? We may never know.

...although I've been told he's a prominent BSRA member, supposedly.

No, and no.

 

[wicked]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

Not really concerned with whom he is. Just appreciate someone who can put together coherent thoughts (and use proper grammar when doing so).

 

[Arlington]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

Taunton...that's the Phase I build. ... Run the buses to Taunton Depot @ 24/140.

Yes, MA-24/MA-140 is the only sane terminus.

Get the rehabbed track sewn up to the Middleboro Secondary.Stick a pocket track there for short-term layovers. Deadhead shift changes to the existing Middleboro layover yard. Signalize that E-W branch so there's Cape thru-routing options and NEC emergency diversion options in a cheap pinch, even if it's only at 40 MPH between Attleboro-Middleboro until there's a real need for regular service on it.

You know I love your style, but this seems like a lot of capital stock that will get very few trains per day, where there are still people suffering from poor headways on existing lines. For the same money, I'd go back to service improvements in the core (like more service, electrification between Route 128 and SS)

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

You know I love your style, but this seems like a lot of capital stock that will get very few trains per day, where there are still people suffering from poor headways on existing lines. For the same money, I'd go back to service improvements in the core (like more service, electrification between Route 128 and SS)

No, it really isn't. Because if stopping at Taunton building a layover in Taunton is one more hornet's nest of a NIMBY fight. All of the layovers the T has built or is trying to build have incurred that wrath. They have no potential sites for one in Taunton because this damn project was designed ass-backwards, branches-first. And the Task Force, like clockwork, has let Fall River and New Bedford tie them into knots over layover site selection. Not only do they not have any potential places to store trains in a Phase I build, but they've left the door wide open to all kinds of hostage-taking should they have to approach Taunton about it. The town knows this. It'll be ready to hit the T up for three...NO, FOUR!...more firehouses, levitating grade separation, and everything else.

Middleboro's layover is 7 miles away in a desolate sand pit next to 495 where nobody can hear it, and is provisioned for a ton of expansion space because the Old Colony was one of the original eliminated SCR alternative routings. Signalizing that track @ 40 MPH to stage deadheads from Taunton Depot is way cheaper than caving to NIMBY ransoms in Taunton. And cheaper on operating than burning fuel and schedule slots deadheading equipment all the way the hell back to Readville all day every day. Also doesn't tie them down to an expensive Taunton yard they'd then have to abandon should Phase II ever come.



Second...they need to find a place where they can supply electrical power to the signals on the far end of the line. Usually on stub branches that's in a cable hut in the layover yard. Here...they probably do have to reach east or west and tie in to the NEC or Old Colony. The Foxboro CR study found it par-or-cheaper to just signalize the entire Framingham Secondary from Walpole to Mansfield, even though the Mansfield end would see no more than just game-day trains. They could more easily patch the signals into the NEC trunk and span the whole line. Priced out at $500K there.

...which, if fortuitous here because the Middleboro Secondary DOES have a never-finished Amtrak wayside signal system from the Cape Codder. Was being installed in '96 when the route was canceled. Small portions of it on this branch and on the Cape--such as this signal head in Norton--were even turned on and field-tested, though never patched in or used by an actual revenue train. The hardware probably needs replacement after 17 years abandoned, but the cable conduits are all dug. It may prove easier and cheaper to anchor a Taunton Phase I by simply cutting the signals in 7 miles east to Middleboro and/or 11 miles west to Attleboro in the existing conduits. If that's cheaper than building a pricier power hut somewhere at Taunton Depot, why not? It's no different than signalizing the Mansfield-Foxboro track that only gets used by a handful of Providence Pats game trains per year.


Of course, we don't know because they've never gamed out a Phase I. EVERYTHING on SCR has been designed branches-in.

 

[SC Truth]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

The enormous amount of money spent on the big dig-Boston is shows how investment in infrastructure seeds new investment. In Fall River, more than just about any community
in MA investment at the state& federal level has been lacking for well over 60 years. In Fall River, support for rail is extremely necessary to spur development. Any development.... If the prevailing attitude will continue to be Fall River is some how not worth rail, from those who to try to define our city because of ignorance, then development will lag for years to come. New Bedford our sister city in the southcoast also deserves rail, but there are some in Boston and the Southcoast that try divide us claiming that one is better than the other. This is wrong all of us here in the Southcoast deserve rail. For us it is just part of the puzzle, but of all the cities and towns tied to Southcoast rail the City Of Fall River deserves this investment.

 

[Arlington]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

The enormous amount of money spent on the big dig-Boston is shows how investment in infrastructure seeds new investment.

The Big Dig is different on far too many levels--and failed on too many of them-- to be a useful starting point for why South Coast should get rail. Among the key points, though, is that the Central Artery was actually crowded and being used beyond its design limits. We knew then who the users would be. Not so with South Coast rail: it is unclear who would use the thing (certainly compared to Middleboro enhancements or a Blue Line to Lynn)

New Bedford our sister city in the southcoast also deserves rail,...
All of us here in the Southcoast deserve rail....
the City Of Fall River deserves this investment...

Let's focus on that word: "deserves" Generally, the idea behind a deserving recipient of money is that you'll put it to good use. Your rhetoric is more like "feels entitled to squander" rather than deserves.

If the investment is going to be transit dollars, there is a pretty good system in place of figuring out who can best put it to use, and therefore who most "deserves" it. That system is tied to how many new riders the line will get compared to how many dollars the line will take to build. If it costs too much and serves too few, NB/FR don't deserve rail....and really, that's where we are. NB/FR shouldn't get rail because there's no evidence they'll use rail.

If you aren't going to use it, you don't deserve it, and if you aren't willing to start out by driving to Taunton, then your words about wanting to ride ring hollow. The politicians who purport to speak for NR/NB say "we all want rail *sooo* desperately that we're unwilling to drive to Taunton for it" ...absurd.

The genius of only going to Taunton (and why NB/FR should accept it) is that for just 25% of the cost it allows NB/FR users (not politicians) to prove that demand among regular folks is real: If South Coast votes with their park-and-ride use of a lot at 24/140. If "regular folks" actually fill up that park-and-ride or take a shuttle bus, then, yes, make the case that you deserve service enhancements.

Sound fair?

Well consider that the Middleboro folks have already overwhelmed their line (where Greenbush has underwhelmed). To me it sounds fair that we improve service for people who are willing to put up with bad service--and to do so before we lavish perfect service on FR/NB (see also the hundreds of millions wasted on Greenbush). At best, FR/NB rail should be "tied" to Middleboro (or Buzzard's Bay), not put ahead as a priority.

The Middleboro folk are *earning* their deserved improvements by actually crowding onto trains every workday. NB/FR people can *earn* and *prove* they'll be deserve their line by hauling themselves to Taunton. If you want to tug on my heartstrings, complain about crowded trains and full lots...for then I at least know you're using the $.

If you can't be bothered to drive or bus to Taunton, then NB/FR are showing they are not serious about actually riding the train that they assert they deserve, and will need to cook up another $1b "investment" that they actually will use.

 

[Semass]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

The enormous amount of money spent on the big dig-Boston is shows how investment in infrastructure seeds new investment. In Fall River, more than just about any community
in MA investment at the state& federal level has been lacking for well over 60 years. In Fall River, support for rail is extremely necessary to spur development. Any development.... If the prevailing attitude will continue to be Fall River is some how not worth rail, from those who to try to define our city because of ignorance, then development will lag for years to come. New Bedford our sister city in the southcoast also deserves rail, but there are some in Boston and the Southcoast that try divide us claiming that one is better than the other. This is wrong all of us here in the Southcoast deserve rail. For us it is just part of the puzzle, but of all the cities and towns tied to Southcoast rail the City Of Fall River deserves this investment.

While I agree that rail service would be a great benefit to Fall River and New Bedford, I encourage you to go back through the thread to check out some of the very compelling arguments against SCR in its current development.
As F-Line and others point out, the politicians have promised the world but have no capacity to deliver. Grandiose stations, transit oriented development, high frequency service, value capture, new equipment, fancy crossings and so forth. They have taken what could and should be a fairly straightforward project and turned it into a figment of imagination.

Many folks here would advocate for a phased approach starting with service to Taunton. If this was done in a basic, serviceable, no-frills manner like Middleboro and Kingston lines, it could be a good service with a reasonable price tag. Adding branches and continuing to phase in and capture dollars as MBTA has done elsewhere makes service to the branches more likely though not immediate. That the state has thrown this as an all-or-nothing proposition at $2B really screws the South Coast.

Incremental actions that lead to an ultimate goal of New Bedford and Fall River (with continuing service to Newport) and a long term plan will ultimately be of much greater benefit than the giant package gambit.

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

The enormous amount of money spent on the big dig-Boston is shows how investment in infrastructure seeds new investment. In Fall River, more than just about any community
in MA investment at the state& federal level has been lacking for well over 60 years. In Fall River, support for rail is extremely necessary to spur development. Any development.... If the prevailing attitude will continue to be Fall River is some how not worth rail, from those who to try to define our city because of ignorance, then development will lag for years to come. New Bedford our sister city in the southcoast also deserves rail, but there are some in Boston and the Southcoast that try divide us claiming that one is better than the other. This is wrong all of us here in the Southcoast deserve rail. For us it is just part of the puzzle, but of all the cities and towns tied to Southcoast rail the City Of Fall River deserves this investment.

Can you substantiate that with more than just bland generalities?

The state has committed to a build option so crippled that it doesn't produce useful commuter frequencies on either branch. Please address this. How is the project going to be useful at all if it doesn't open up meaningful commute frequencies to Boston or in a reverse commute direction that brings people from points-north into downtown FR and NB to work? It performs worse on both frequency and trip time than nearly every express bus configuration.

This isn't supposed to be about tapping existing demand ready to explode...it's about changing the commute patterns of the region. How can you change the commute patterns of a region with frequencies that low? The most optimistic ridership predictions they've studies out are far too low. So if this is an economic justice project for the downtowns, it has little to do with transit frequencies. If it doesn't have much to do with the transit frequencies, what DOES it have to do with? Nobody is offering up plausible theories. There's just this ceaseless bleating about "we deserve".


Understand? If the hard numbers do not show meaningful influx of new transit users justifying the service on its crippled build, what is the necessity? Opening a train station for north-south commutes not enough people will take is not some placeholder that will crest demand unto itself and force the T to immediately pony up a couple hundred mil more to double-track the mainline. It's hedging on a billion-dollar Cordage Park justifying its existence by...existing. What IS going to anchor the downtown revival around the train station if the train service isn't? Nothing did at Cordage Park, and the T has zero motivation to triple the number of trains there to find out because the pent-up demand isn't there. So what external undefined variable are going to make this worth everyone's while?

The ass-backwards build from the branches-north only makes sense if you can solve for this humongous gap in the utilization. If the numbers are not going to come from Boston commutes, and the mainline is not going to get upgraded for twice the frequencies until there is evidence of demand-as-numbers, what is downtown going to do to produce the numbers?

I'm not hearing any specifics except "we deserve." You and everyone else are completely justified criticizing Boston or other developments that are similarly vapid or wishful-thinking on utilization, and which look too much like monument-building for monument-building's sake. What exempts South Coast from the same scrutiny? Evidence, please...appeals to charity on grounds of perceived deservingness vs. other regions does not constitute sound investment strategy likely to pay off for all parties. I want to hear someone for a change make an empirical argument about what the payoff is and how to achieve it.

 

[Equilibria]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

If you aren't going to use it, you don't deserve it, and if you aren't willing to start out by driving to Taunton, then your words about wanting to ride ring hollow. The politicians who purport to speak for NR/NB say "we all want rail *sooo* desperately that we're unwilling to drive to Taunton for it" ...absurd.

I'm not sure I can agree with that, Arlington. You're essentially making the argument that simply because certain cities are more cultured or more enlightened than others (you essentially make South Coast folks sound like whiny hicks in this post), the residents of the second-class cities have to drive 30 miles, then stop and take a train to prove that they'd take a train if it was across the street from their house?

That would be like telling Worcester residents that they would have to drive to Framingham for 10 years before they'd get service at Union Station, or telling residents of Newton that the Green Line will reach them when they've driven to Kenmore enough to prove they really want it.

In dense metro areas, you can end up with situations where this actually works, like folks along Route 2 driving to Alewife and taking the Red Line in, but the South Coast has a long commute and relatively open roads, meaning that there's little incentive, one you've driven for 20 minutes, not to simply drive the rest of the way.

I realize that if people turn out in droves for an inconvenient train they'll likely turn out even more strongly for a convenient one. I agree with that. But you're taking that logic too far.

 

[Arlington]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

I'm not sure I can agree with that, Arlington. You're essentially making the argument that simply because certain cities are more cultured or more enlightened than others (you essentially make South Coast folks sound like whiny hicks in this post), the residents of the second-class cities have to drive 30 miles, then stop and take a train to prove that they'd take a train if it was across the street from their house?

That would be like telling Worcester residents that they would have to drive to Framingham for 10 years before they'd get service at Union Station, or telling residents of Newton that the Green Line will reach them when they've driven to Kenmore enough to prove they really want it.

In dense metro areas, you can end up with situations where this actually works, like folks along Route 2 driving to Alewife and taking the Red Line in, but the South Coast has a long commute and relatively open roads, meaning that there's little incentive, one you've driven for 20 minutes, not to simply drive the rest of the way.

I realize that if people turn out in droves for an inconvenient train they'll likely turn out even more strongly for a convenient one. I agree with that. But you're taking that logic too far.

The other half of the logic is the logic of phasing. Worcester was reached in phases, and improved in phases, through cities with proven ridership and at moderate cost.

Let Taunton play the role of Framingham here: Once Taunton has proven its ridership, then (and only then) would it be time to explore extending it beyond.

Same went (and goes) for Old Colony: Middleboro has now proved out and we can talk seriously about extending to Buzzards Bay and the Cape Flyer. Greenbush has not proved out...and really proved that hasty roll-outs of lines with unproven ridership are just politician-inspired wastes of $500m that could have been spent where there were riders.

 

[Equilibria]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

The other half of the logic is the logic of phasing. Worcester was reached in phases, and improved in phases, through cities with proven ridership and at moderate cost.

Let Taunton play the role of Framingham here: Once Taunton has proven its ridership, then (and only then) would it be time to explore extending it beyond.

Same went (and goes) for Old Colony: Middleboro has now proved out and we can talk seriously about extending to Buzzards Bay and the Cape Flyer. Greenbush has not proved out...and really proved that hasty roll-outs of lines with unproven ridership are just politician-inspired wastes of $500m that could have been spent where there were riders.

Ok, that's logic I can get behind, as long as we're talking about closer-in communities proving that they can justify their own stations for the sake of a balanced line. I'm just saying that asking people at the end of the line to drive to the middle to prove that they'd ride from the end is silly.

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

Ok, that's logic I can get behind, as long as we're talking about closer-in communities proving that they can justify their own stations for the sake of a balanced line. I'm just saying that asking people at the end of the line to drive to the middle to prove that they'd ride from the end is silly.

The ridership demand is pretty reliable out to Taunton, and with the frequencies out to Taunton will tap all its utilization. The only thing dodgy is the swollen number of parking spaces planned for some of these stops. Taunton Depot at 24/140 and Raynham at the dog park are the only two that are really going to draw a ton of park-and-ride traffic due to proximity to 24/140 and 495/24. I don't think the dubious odds that dysfunctional Raynham can execute on dense TOD around that site necessarily dims its potential, because the parking is cheap on that site. They can easily expand the lot Middleboro-style if the TOD ever arrives. And Easton Village at the historic station is a pitch-perfect walkable neighborhood station.

But there are a couple whoppers. . .

497 spaces at North Easton station is extreme overkill and way over-dependent on getting slam-dunk TOD utilization around the Roche Bros. plaza. Do you want to trust the NIMBY's in that town to not inhibit the development around there? I wouldn't. I's even consider holding off on that station until such TOD development is secured, then infilling it later. If there isn't a local traffic driver it's nothing but an overflow lot for Stoughton and induced demand trap for 138 traffic.

And 202 spaces at Taunton/Dean St. is overkill. That area has even denser neighborhood walkup than Easton Village, and some golden TOD potential with that abandoned industrial complex. But >50% of the site is going to be asphalt. That's pointless. And an induced demand trap for an already congested downtown, since it'll just attract more people down 44 from 24 trying to beat the backups at the 140 exit. Go with that build and they'll be wanting to plunk a $100M garage there in 10 years and be complaining about traffic calming 44. This is the last place they need to be drawing car traffic. (But at least they eliminated the other downtown site on 140 with its ghastly 714 spaces.)


Chop the Taunton parking footprint in half and make North Easton prove its TOD-generated numbers or get punted off as an infill stop and I think this is solid. Easton Village, Raynham, and Taunton Depot @ 140/24 are all being built double-track from the start...as will Stoughton and Canton Ctr. North Easton and Taunton/Dean St. are the only singles that would require modifying a station if/when the whole mainline gets double-tracked. Dean St. because it's a constrained space...the double down to Depot starts immediately after exiting the platform. North Easton...I don't know why they're waiting. That helps at keeping the stations untouched and the towns from hitting the state up for more candy when the time comes to double up the whole main. They just have to control the "sound walls and fire stations" riff-raff to keep it from getting Greenbushed. And figure out their layover yard plan without getting Greenbushed (which is why deadheading to nearby Middleboro is a vastly easier solution than going to war).

Address those risks and this one rests on solid ground. And wouldn't involve the SCR Task Force at all because all affected towns are in-district and don't need an outside liason.

 

[BostonUrbEx]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

The enormous amount of money spent on the big dig-Boston is shows how investment in infrastructure seeds new investment. In Fall River, more than just about any community
in MA investment at the state& federal level has been lacking for well over 60 years. In Fall River, support for rail is extremely necessary to spur development. Any development.... If the prevailing attitude will continue to be Fall River is some how not worth rail, from those who to try to define our city because of ignorance, then development will lag for years to come. New Bedford our sister city in the southcoast also deserves rail, but there are some in Boston and the Southcoast that try divide us claiming that one is better than the other. This is wrong all of us here in the Southcoast deserve rail. For us it is just part of the puzzle, but of all the cities and towns tied to Southcoast rail the City Of Fall River deserves this investment.

Okay, yes, everyone deserves rail. But guess what? The towns between Boston and you are working tirelessly to jack up the price of your rail, and your politicians are screwing it up while using it as a carrot on a stick. The cost right now is in no way justified. At all. Ever. Period.

 

[cbrett]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

That would be like telling Worcester residents that they would have to drive to Framingham for 10 years before they'd get service at Union Station, or telling residents of Newton that the Green Line will reach them when they've driven to Kenmore enough to prove they really want it.

Driving into downtown Boston and finding parking to hop on the already crowded transit line is slightly different then driving to a convenient park and ride for a CR stop right off of the highway.

Also, both of those services you mentioned DO get the ridership worthy of not only their continued existence, but in the case of Worcester, expansion and reinvestment into the line. Worcester has proved itself as an EXTREMELY viable route with tons of ridership, so voila, they are now getting more frequent service along with improved stations. If you really want to bring that analogy to the Worcester Line into play, then make FR/NB "suffer" with regular, no frills commuter rail, which will be improved as ridership demands.

I know that if I were a resident of FR/NB, I would be bullshit if my town (in reality the state will, as well as other taxpayers) paid tons of money for a service which hardly gets used, so it only makes sense to test the waters and gradually expand. If it is such an incredible success that is worthy of multi-million dollar stations and improvements, then great, the T can now put money into what would be a stable and financially sound line.

 

[Arlington]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

Call me a killjoy, but its good to see that the Jedi mind tricks of Bristol Wan Twobillion have no effect here. If only Beacon Hill (that wretched hive of scum an villainy) were more immune.

 

[Semass]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

Regarding Taunton, I like the proximity to downtown of the Dean St. station but there have been changes in town since the plan. I wonder if they would consider a new station site, since this is all pie in the sky. Haskon shut down in weir village a few years ago and behind that complex (http://goo.gl/maps/Hpgql) is where the tracks converge for Boston, Providence, and the FR/NB branches. A station there could serve SCR and any future service on the Middleboro Secondary such as a version of the Cape Flyer weekend train from Providence to Hyannis. Still pretty close to downtown Taunton.

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

Driving into downtown Boston and finding parking to hop on the already crowded transit line is slightly different then driving to a convenient park and ride for a CR stop right off of the highway.

Also, both of those services you mentioned DO get the ridership worthy of not only their continued existence, but in the case of Worcester, expansion and reinvestment into the line. Worcester has proved itself as an EXTREMELY viable route with tons of ridership, so voila, they are now getting more frequent service along with improved stations. If you really want to bring that analogy to the Worcester Line into play, then make FR/NB "suffer" with regular, no frills commuter rail, which will be improved as ridership demands.

I know that if I were a resident of FR/NB, I would be bullshit if my town (in reality the state will, as well as other taxpayers) paid tons of money for a service which hardly gets used, so it only makes sense to test the waters and gradually expand. If it is such an incredible success that is worthy of multi-million dollar stations and improvements, then great, the T can now put money into what would be a stable and financially sound line.

It's simpler than that. The design they have committed to with the single-track mainline is so defective they CANNOT run usefully-utilized headways.

Defective...by...design.

It's not a matter of artificially holding back and teaching FR/NB a lesson about paying their dues. The service being offered is too crippled to entice new Boston commutes. There will be more opportunities for Boston commutes with an express bus network pinging to Taunton. So why is the state so gung-ho to build an inferior option?

The "deserve" behind the current build is all about monument-building. That's why no one can name specifics as to why and how this will revitalize the cities.


The only way this will work is to Phase I it, set up the rubber-tire radial transfers, and get everyone on the Stoughton route accustomed to the trains not destroying their towns so that 2nd track can get laid a dozen years later. And it will take a dozen years to get them accustomed. Then it's safe to proceed with Phase II. Hopefully with some other stakeholders like RIDOT/Newport and increased freight business from the ports picking up the slack on the branches. The Army Corps won't sign off on double-tracking today, so a plan revision (hellloooooo, $2.5B!) to fight for the double-tracking is a moot point. That fight is over on a technicality (and pure idiotic technicality it is, because the railbed will be built for two and they do not have to involve the Corps again to plunk a second track on a pre-built/pre-ballasted bed). So there is nothing so critically important about this that a defective-by-design monolith has to be built for the sheer principle and bureaucratic crapulence of it.

Build the damn thing when you can send useful frequencies down there. If that is a permitting and funding impossibility, steer it in the direction of what will capture the most ridership with what you can do. But we can't do that because the SCR Task Force answerable to no one would have to be disbanded. They only exist because two...TWO...municipalities on the route are not in the MBTA district and need an intermediary to interface with the agency. Hell...if you built the 2 branches out of Taunton that each terminated in frickin' Freetown it would all be in-district and we wouldn't need to have a Task Force. This thing would probably cost $3/4B less by virtue of cutting out half the peer pressure. Fight the real enemy?

 

[wicked]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

What's the estimated cost for a Taunton expansion?