Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail (South Coast Rail)

[underground]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

Can you provide a source?

Not off the top of my head, but it's an issue that pops up multiple times a year if you read the Globe, Commonwealth Mag, etc.

 

[Matthew]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

Most of the opponents of the South Coast Rail tend to be the white collar elites in Suffolk and Middlesex County that forget the state of Massachusetts extends beyond 495.

Also, I should not have let this idiotic argument go by.

Most of the commuter rail expansion in this state is driven by white suburban elites, at the expense of minority and working class communities who live closer to Boston. Notice how easy it is to get crap commuter rail extensions to deserted places like Greenbush? And how hard it is to get the MBTA to give a shit about its overcrowded bus service?

Don't give me some bullshit about "white collar elites" in Boston. You are stealing money away from places like Lynn, Roxbury and Mattapan, all of which could use much better bus service -- all to create a $2 billion train that nobody will want to use and is permanently hobbled by design.

When transit advocates like F-line and me are telling you that this train is a bad idea, you should sit up and take notice.

 

[OSUPhantom]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

Also, I should not have let this idiotic argument go by.

Most of the commuter rail expansion in this state is driven by white suburban elites, at the expense of minority and working class communities who live closer to Boston. Notice how easy it is to get crap commuter rail extensions to deserted places like Greenbush? And how hard it is to get the MBTA to give a shit about its overcrowded bus service?

Don't give me some bullshit about "white collar elites" in Boston. You are stealing money away from places like Lynn, Roxbury and Mattapan, all of which could use much better bus service -- all to create a $2 billion train that nobody will want to use and is permanently hobbled by design.

When transit advocates like F-line and me are telling you that this train is a bad idea, you should sit up and take notice.

First off that nastiness is totally unwarranted.

And considering the South Coast is the only major population area within 50 miles of Boston without T access and gets an extremely small portion of investment compared to Suffolk and Middlesex I'd hardly say we're stealing money from areas that already have regular rail access.

You're not the only transit advocate in the world nor are you the end all be all on this issue. F-line put together a thoughtful informed response meanwhile you just making an ass of yourself so step off your high horse.

 

[Arlington]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

And considering the South Coast is the only major population area within 50 miles of Boston without T access and gets an extremely small portion of investment compared to Suffolk and Middlesex I'd hardly say we're stealing money from areas that already have regular rail access. .

The whole "major population within 50 miles" thing, though, needs to be called out as a completely arbitrary definition, constructed entirely to make it look like the South Coast should have a train, but actually having nothing to do with anything as far as transport investments are concerned.

The real measure is capital dollars per new rider. And in this case Capital $ are about 5x what they need to be, and ridership is probably inflated Greenbush-style, for something like it being an idea that is 10x worse than even 10 $200m projects the state would be better off doing in the name of mobility and econ development.

There's nothing magical about 50 miles (except that NB and FR fall within it), and there's nothing about being "largest without" that is any kind of guarantee that the state will get payback on its investment.

The reality is that Worcester is bigger and has more economic and commuting affinities that justify its service (which did not cost $2b)

Providence gets its service paid by Rhode Island and happens to leverage the NEC and a national rail network that flows through town.

Again and again, $2b is too much to spend on too few riders. If the South Coast had/was/will be willing to take a starter system to a Taunton terminus, just like Marlboro did, then maybe *later* (after ridership is proven) think about going further.

The Cape wins its Cape Flyer because, (1) Marlboro is a proven winner and (2) service is slow speed on never-abandoned rails and only seasonal...but it can be pilot for better.

 

[fattony]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

OSU, you have to admit you are being a little emotional about this. I can understand wanting your hometown and neighboring towns to get ahead, but SCR is objectively doomed. Don't take it personally.

The only reason its moving forward is because one hand washes the other on Beacon Hill. Your representatives need to show something paid for with Mass tax dollars to appease constituents who quite frankly (like all voters everywhere, not just the SC of Mass) don't know what is good for them. Other reps will throw the South Coast this bone in exchange for X, Y, and Z. In the end, no one will will ride the train but your reps will be reelected.

 

[bigeman312]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

...considering the South Coast is the only major population area within 50 miles of Boston without T access...

Nashua urban area - 226,000 population
New Bedford urban area - 149,000 population

Nahua - 35 miles from Boston
New Bedford - 51 miles from Boston

Nahua - No T access
New Bedford - No T access

Try again.

 

[Arlington]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

The term 'investment' implies at least a modest possibility of a favorable return.

Well said. Investment is not just "spending on stuff governments own or do". The idea is that when you're done spending $X the state should be better off by $X+%

Commuter rail is very marginal, partly because sprawl doesn't pay back, and partly because a whole lot of rail sits idle for too many hours of its day.

With the modern cost of rail, you need to show it being used maybe 5x per hour all day long to know that an investment in rail is getting its pay back in moblity. (yes, that means that some long-thin lines are not getting good payback...and FR/NB would be worse still).

 

[cozzyd]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

Do the highways to Taunton from FR/NB get congested during rush hour?

 

[Arlington]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

Do the highways to Taunton from FR/NB get congested during rush hour?

Yes. Are they commuting to places accessed via South Station? No.

If you'd say these folks can be enticed from their cars for transit, I'd much rather give them buses and an HOV lane on 24.

 

[bigeman312]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

A question to those of you more familiar with the area's existing public transportation:

What type of public transportation currently exists:

• between New Bedford and Boston?
• between New Bedford and Providence?
• between New Bedford and Worcester?
• between New Bedford and Cape Cod?
• between New Bedford and Southeastern Connecticut?

It seems these markets should be primed with bus ridership (if they haven't already), and then, and only then, rail service can be established.

 

[Lrfox]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

I try to excuse myself from the SCR debate as much as possible, so I'm going to just add a little perspective without arguing for or against. For the sake of not hurting myself while sitting on this fence, I'll add that I wholeheartedly support a FR/NB rail connection (emphasis on the "a") and see some of the alternatives (BRT, or increased bus service) as half assed "solutions" that fix nothing.

A Fall River/NB commuter rail connection has been touted in the region for going on three decades. The general sentiment in the South Coast is that it'll never happen. Blame can be pointed in every which way, but the reality is that officials have backed themselves into a corner. From a political standpoint, saying that the project is going to be "phased" with an initial build out to Taunton, is essentially the same as saying that FR/NB aren't going to get commuter rail service as far as the constituency is concerned. There's no faith that the project would ever be extended among those living in the region. It doesn't matter that it makes sense to concentrate funding on getting the Taunton-Stoughton set to handle more traffic to reduce headways. It doesn't matter that phasing the build out could potentially mean double tracked connections (and better headways and faster speeds) between Taunton and FR/NB. The residents of the region see a phased approach as another cop out. Frankly, I don't blame them. Even though it means a better quality connection, I have little faith that the second part gets done. Ever.

That lack of faith is why I support the overpriced, very imperfect version of the project. My feeling is that if it's built in one giant phase, eventually it can be tweaked to work. The odds of improvements being made after the fact are significantly higher than the project being delayed (again), restructured, and built in a phased processes. Especially with Rhode Island taking a keen interest in extending the Fall River Branch to Newport.

While much of what F-Line and Matthew and other opponents say is true (though I think ridership numbers are going to be quite a bit higher than they do... 75 minutes on a train is still better than dealing with traffic on 24/93), I think most people along the route (except Stoughton, Raynham and Easton), will take the flawed service over no service at all. Is that the right stance to take? Probably not. But that's the general attitude.

Re: the whole bedroom community thing. I think people underestimate the number of people commuting to Boston from South Coast communities. About 50% of the people I know commute to Boston for work every day. My parents, my girlfriend, and most of my friends and people I associate with. I did for two years (I work in Plymouth now which is a lot more enjoyable than I initially imagined). I am fully aware of the perceptions of the region and I tend to agree that the majority of the 184,000 people in Fall River and New Bedford probably will not be commuting to work in Boston. "Work" itself is a foreign term for many in those two cities. However, a good percentage of that 184,000 will take advantage of the service. There are also well over 100,000 people who live in the South Coast outside of those cities. Many of those already make the commute to Boston utilizing some awful form of getting to work. Of the people I know, it means sitting in traffic for about 1.5 hours each way and paying to park in town. Leaving at 4:50 or 5am to beat traffic and getting the early bird spots, driving to Quincy (30+ minutes with no traffic), parking at Quincy Adams and taking the Red Line, or driving to Middleborough (not the easiest connection for the South Coast... 20-30+ minutes from most of it) and taking the commuter rail (1:05- 1:10 typical duration) into town. While the 75 minute estimates sound awful to those living in and around Boston, that's a welcome alternative for the South Coast residents.

Obviously the belief that commuter rail connections are going to be the savior of Fall River and New Bedford are absurd. Those two cities need a lot more to happen (Fall River, imho, is light years away from revitalization... New Bedford is on the right path with the expanded seaport, airport expansions, etc.). However, I do think they'll see a nice little uptick in population growth (the good kind), and slight economic boosts. Taunton stands to gain the most. It's ridiculous that Taunton isn't already connected.

I don't know if this has already been mentioned, but the transportation bill approved by the house of reps. yesterday includes approved borrowing of 2.2 billion for SCR. It needs to be approved by the senate (it will get that approval), and the next governor can reallocate that money, but it's the biggest step forward in terms of funding yet.

 

[cozzyd]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

Yes. Are they commuting to places accessed via South Station? No.

If you'd say these folks can be enticed from their cars for transit, I'd much rather give them buses and an HOV lane on 24.

Agreed, and the service would be better too.

 

[Lrfox]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

Nashua urban area - 226,000 population
New Bedford urban area - 149,000 population

Nahua - 35 miles from Boston
New Bedford - 51 miles from Boston

Nahua - No T access
New Bedford - No T access

Try again.

Those points are well taken (although NB's "urban area" doesn't include Fall River and neighboring communities).

As a South Coast resident, I'd agree that Manchester/Nashua needs and deserves a rail connection. Probably more so than FR/NB. However, being located across state borders makes it far more difficult to accomplish. I have no doubt that if NH was as proactive as RI, Manchester/Nashua would have a rail connection already. It's a crime they don't.

Do the highways to Taunton from FR/NB get congested during rush hour?

They get slow. Not congested like they do closer to Boston. Honestly, a widening of Route 24 between the 495 and 140 interchanges from 2 lanes to 3 could probably alleviate the worst of it there. Traffic doesn't really get too bad until about exit 17 on the way in. That's about where it clears up a bit on the evening commute. Exit 12 gets backed up and there are often jams where 24 goes from 3 lanes to 2 (exit 14- 495 interchange). South of that, 24 is slow between exits 9 and 7 (79 split). I don't take 140 during rush hour so I don't know.

Yes. Are they commuting to places accessed via South Station? No.

If you'd say these folks can be enticed from their cars for transit, I'd much rather give them buses and an HOV lane on 24.

More than you think. A lot more. There seems to be this notion that commuters who live south of 495 don't cross that boundary into the Boston area. It's not the case for many, many of us. The HOV on 24 is nice in theory, but the worst of the commute is still from the end of 24 into Boston. It doesn't change much. And there's already bus service. It's subject to the same jams the cars are.

*edited to add* Many, many are commuting to places in the Boston area accessed by transit connections from South Station.

A question to those of you more familiar with the area's existing public transportation:

What type of public transportation currently exists:

• between New Bedford and Boston?
• between New Bedford and Providence?
• between New Bedford and Worcester?
• between New Bedford and Cape Cod?
• between New Bedford and Southeastern Connecticut?

It seems these markets should be primed with bus ridership (if they haven't already), and then, and only then, rail service can be established.

New Bedford-Boston has bus coverage. Same with New Bedford and Providence, Cape Cod and New York City. Not sure about Worcester/New Bedford.

 

[Arlington]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

They get slow. Not congested like they do closer to Boston. Honestly, a widening of Route 24 between the 495 and 140 interchanges from 2 lanes to 3 could probably alleviate the worst of it there. Traffic doesn't really get too bad until about exit 17 on the way in. That's about where it clears up a bit on the evening commute. Exit 12 gets backed up and there are often jams where 24 goes from 3 lanes to 2 (exit 14- 495 interchange). South of that, 24 is slow between exits 9 and 7 (79 split). I don't take 140 during rush hour so I don't know.



More than you think. A lot more. There seems to be this notion that commuters who live south of 495 don't cross that boundary into the Boston area. It's not the case for many, many of us. The HOV on 24 is nice in theory, but the worst of the commute is still from the end of 24 into Boston. It doesn't change much. And there's already bus service. It's subject to the same jams the cars are.

*edited to add* Many, many are commuting to places in the Boston area accessed by transit connections from South Station. .

I'd assert that most of the people jamming 24 inside 495 are actually people who live inside 495, and that even moreso as you get to 128/93, you're seeing local folks.

Commuter rail from Attleboro-Taunton-Middleboro makes sense....and $2b would be better spent 3rd-tracking the NEC and upgrading Middleboro (heck even a big project to give the Old Colony 2-tracks in current bottlenecks)...making them places with 30-min headways all day, rather than splitting those frequencies through wetlands, (and electrified??) to Taunton, and worse still, splitting them in half again on spurs to FR and NB.

...Leaving at 4:50 or 5am to beat traffic and getting the early bird spots, driving to Quincy (30+ minutes with no traffic), parking at Quincy Adams and taking the Red Line, or driving to Middleborough (not the easiest connection for the South Coast... 20-30+ minutes from most of it) and taking the commuter rail (1:05- 1:10 typical duration) into town. While the 75 minute estimates sound awful to those living in and around Boston, that's a welcome alternative for the South Coast residents.

Let's build more parking at these alternatives. Hundreds of millions of dollars of it. And then lets get hundreds of millions in rolling stock. ANd hundreds of millions in track-untangling. Call it $1b....and you're still half the cost of FR/NB with more people mobilized, certain ridership, and the kind of real payback that investments should return.

 

[cozzyd]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

http://www.dattco.com/site/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/Boston-Schedule.pdf

Rail would hardly be an improvement over these travel times and it would have much worse frequency. Moreover, it would be much quicker and cheaper to improve capacity / comfort / speeds for bus routes. For example you could:

- Add HOV lanes where possible, or allow running buses on shoulders where feasible
- Run some buses to Quincy Adams instead, which would offer a bypass to the most congested segment.
- Improve connection between SS Bus Terminal and the Red Line (moving walkway? I don't know... )

 

[underground]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

The only people who are going to use this are those who have no other option economically. Those with a few bucks in their pocket will continue to either drive all the way in or drive to Quincy Adams and take the red line as to not be beholden to a commuter rail schedule.

Oh yeah?

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

Do the highways to Taunton from FR/NB get congested during rush hour?

The north-south highways have some substandard interchanges causing single-exit bad backups, but in general they are well under-capacity and the problem spots are not expensive fixes.

24/140 is a godawful incomplete interchange with the traffic lights and no free moments 24S-to-140S. And 140N backs up at the lights for the same reason. Simply completing the 2 missing legs of the cloverleaf and widening under the bridge for full accel/decel lanes pretty much licks that interchange entirely. The loads really aren't that huge in reality; the interchange is just that bad it fails under any load.

And 24 in general is crunched by the lane drop between 495 and 140. That needs to be fixed with the drop happening on 24S at an exit-only for 140S and third travel lane beginning on 24N at the 140N merge. The merging traffic from 495 usually locks it on a bad morning down to Route 44 while it sorts itself.

And the 195 interchange needs some geometry improvements because the merges are too slow, but that really only comes into play when you're stuck behind a big rig.


Other than that 24 is nearly empty between 140 and 195, and speed limit up until the I-93 backups start at Harrison Ave. 2 exits from the end. 140 is totally empty to New Bedford. And 79 is empty until it hits the crumbling double-decker from hell 195 interchange...which is being torn down along with eventually all of 79 south of the 6/138 interchange. This is why the Boston buses beat the would-be commuter rail time. The highways aren't overloaded, and if the ever fix 24/140 and 24-to-495 pretty much never will be overloaded.


195's a different story between FR and Providence, and in downtown NB and Fairhaven from 140 to 240 because of the asinine lane drop. But that's the prevailing commute direction...east-west. Nobody goes north-south in large numbers. They just don't. And nobody has made a factually-backed argument as to why SCR will change that. It's all stuff-of-dreams and "OUR TURN FOR A BLANK CHECK!" emotional arguments. Across the board from all the officials and local media championing this.

 

[Lrfox]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

I'd assert that most of the people jamming 24 inside 495 are actually people who live inside 495, and that even moreso as you get to 128/93, you're seeing local folks.

Commuter rail from Attleboro-Taunton-Middleboro makes sense....and $2b would be better spent 3rd-tracking the NEC and upgrading Middleboro (heck even a big project to give the Old Colony 2-tracks in current bottlenecks)...making them places with 30-min headways all day, rather than splitting those frequencies through wetlands, (and electrified??) to Taunton, and worse still, splitting them in half again on spurs to FR and NB.

I agree with the notes on congestion. I'm just saying that there are a lot more commuters heading into Boston on 24 from the South Coast region than many are acknowledging.

Let's build more parking at these alternatives. Hundreds of millions of dollars of it. And then lets get hundreds of millions in rolling stock. ANd hundreds of millions in track-untangling. Call it $1b....and you're still half the cost of FR/NB with more people mobilized, certain ridership, and the kind of real payback that investments should return.

While I think the $1b estimate to do all of that (effectively) is low, I don't disagree with the principal. I still think you'll face some of the same hurdles that adding another rail line faces (community opposition, primarily), and it still means that Fall River and New Bedford are without a good rail connection to Boston. I do think the $2b tag is absurd and that the right approach is a phases build out with double track along the entire route with the first phase terminating at Taunton. However, since none of that is going to happen, I think the flawed product is better than no product and I don't think it's going to be quite the failure that others do.

The only people who are going to use this are those who have no other option economically. Those with a few bucks in their pocket will continue to either drive all the way in or drive to Quincy Adams and take the red line as to not be beholden to a commuter rail schedule.

You're underestimating the people who would deal with the more inflexible schedule for the one seat ride and less hassle. It's not just going to be poor people. I doubt many of the poor people form FR/NB will be seeking employment in Boston anyway. I've never bought that argument for SCR.

http://www.dattco.com/site/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/Boston-Schedule.pdf

Rail would hardly be an improvement over these travel times and it would have much worse frequency. Moreover, it would be much quicker and cheaper to improve capacity / comfort / speeds for bus routes. For example you could:

- Add HOV lanes where possible, or allow running buses on shoulders where feasible
- Run some buses to Quincy Adams instead, which would offer a bypass to the most congested segment.
- Improve connection between SS Bus Terminal and the Red Line (moving walkway? I don't know... )

Even if it's not quite an improvement over the travel times (which it is for the most part), it's still a better alternative. One seat ride (or two if they connect to another line at South Station) and no driving at all is very attractive to most people. Why deal with the variables like traffic, delays with connections, wait times for connections, etc. when you can catch the train a few miles from home and take it all the way in?

The busiest part of the drive has an HOV lane. Adding one "where possible" or allowing buses on the shoulder where feasible would do very little to improve the commute from the South Coast. I also can't imagine any stretch of 24 where officials say it's "feasible" for a bus to drive on the shoulder.

I don't see how running a bus to Quincy Adams would be a great option. Assuming the bus continues on to South Station, does it really make sense for the bus to exit the highway, stop and unload passengers so they can get on a train that they can pick up anyway at the bus's final destination. Then it has to navigate lights and traffic to get back on 93 North. It's 10 minutes extra, at the very least, for the status quo for the bus passengers, and the passengers getting off the bus are then have to wait for the Red Line. It's a delay for everyone.

Then there's the issue of cost. If it costs the same to get off at Quincy Adams as it would to go to South Station, then it doesn't make much sense for a passenger to get off and pay extra for the Red Line at Quincy Adams. If it costs less for a passenger to get off at QA than to continue into town, then does it make sense for the bus to continue the trip into South Station? The bus would be throwing money away. If they're already going to SS, why add time to the trip by stopping at QA and losing the additional fare from the passengers exiting there?

I'm with you on improving the bus terminal connection at SS, but I don't know how to do it.

 

[Matthew]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

First off that nastiness is totally unwarranted.

It's completely warranted... it's only a reflection of your ridiculous attitude that FR/NB, which are not in the MBTA service region, should get $2 billion while screwing over the bus riders of Lynn, Roxbury and Mattapan.

Because of geography?! Transit is not a service for rocks, rivers and dirt. As wonderful as those things may be, transit is intended to serve people. And there are fewer people in the South Coast, and they are not efficient to serve this way. There are real constraints on resources.

Providence, Worcester and Lowell all have a fundamental advantage over Fall River and New Bedford: those 3 cities are "on the way" to bigger places, and can piggyback on top of those intercity services. The South Coast, by definition, is not on the way to anything but the ocean. It's a dead end. Providence, Worcester and Lowell have also managed to keep up nearly continuous passenger service for centuries. South Coast Rail is starting from nothing but some decrepit freight tracks and praying for people to start riding it, even though they have developed their lives and developments around not having it.

Is it possible to jumpstart such service from nothing? Absolutely. But not within the parameters of South Coast Rail: the trip will take 85 minutes as projected, and the minimum headway will be 40 minutes. More likely the average headway will be on the order of several hours. And that only gets you to South Station/BBY!

Everything we know about transit tells us that such parameters will result in pitiful ridership.

SCR is only expected to gather about 4000-5000 riders. Let's give it the benefit of the doubt and assume that somehow it only costs $1.5 billion and attracts 5000 riders. That equals THREE HUNDRED THOUSAND DOLLARS PER RIDER!

By comparison, the ridiculously expensive Second Avenue Subway is expected to clock in at about $25,000 per rider! It'll be ten times cheaper than SCR and it will provide frequent service to the most densely populated corridor in the United States. That's why the Second Ave Subway works out, even at the atrocious cost.

On the other hand: South Coast Rail makes the Big Dig look like a bargain!

Big, bad, expensive transit will destroy all chances of improving the South Coast through any other means. It is a white elephant project and will be a burden on the entire state and your region for perpetuity if it is built. We have already made this mistake with Greenbush commuter rail, and we need to do our best to avoid repeating it, before the MBTA's obsession with commuter rail expansion consumes all our resources.

75 minutes on a train is still better than dealing with traffic on 24/93

It will not be 75 minutes. That requires electrification. Do you see the MBTA operating any other electric trains? Do you really expect the MBTA to purchase and operate a special fleet of electric trains, with associated maintenance facilities and staff, just for SCR?

The run times will be 85 minutes at a minimum as projected for the diesel alternative, and probably worse in practice.

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

Re: Fall River/New Bedford Commuter Rail

The only people who are going to use this are those who have no other option economically. Those with a few bucks in their pocket will continue to either drive all the way in or drive to Quincy Adams and take the red line as to not be beholden to a commuter rail schedule.

I don't think that washes. Do you know how high the Zone fare is going to be that far out of town? Stoughton's a Zone 4 that's 19 miles from South Station. Fall River is 7 stops extra and 51 miles from South Station, same as T.F. Green and longer distance than any instate commuter rail trip except (barely) Wachusett station. New Bedford is 1 fewer stop and 4 more miles...a little bit greater distance than Wachusett. These are going to be Zone 9's @ $10.50 per ride, $345 for a monthly pass at whatever fare hikes we get by the time this thing opens.

That is not a downmarket commute at all. And FR's stations are not close to where all the city bus routes tie together outside City Hall so SRTA's got lots of issues to solve tying in enough of their intracity transit into the stations. Throw in parking and this and decidedly suburban park-and-ride oriented Wachusett are the most expensive intrastate public transit commutes of all.


Again...lets see some facts on who this is actually serving to back up some of these 'gut feelings' the South Coast has about it. Facts, not emotional arguments. Not payback for past slights and broken promises, because these cities are in a long line of those and some of them (hello, Lynn) have fistfulls of real numbers to back up their arguments.