General MBTA Topics (Multi Modal, Budget, MassDOT)
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metasyntactic
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Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos
BTW, for anyone who wants to contact their town meeting member in Brookline, I think the relevant budget item is point (B)(8) in the appropriations article: http://www.brooklinema.gov/index.php?option=com_docman&task=doc_download&gid=9471&Itemid=654
The list of town meeting members is here: http://www.brooklinema.gov/index.php?option=com_docman&task=cat_view&gid=474&ItemId=94
BTW, for anyone who wants to contact their town meeting member in Brookline, I think the relevant budget item is point (B)(8) in the appropriations article: http://www.brooklinema.gov/index.php?option=com_docman&task=doc_download&gid=9471&Itemid=654
The list of town meeting members is here: http://www.brooklinema.gov/index.php?option=com_docman&task=cat_view&gid=474&ItemId=94
bigeman312
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Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos
Brookline resident(s) probably predicted that with a faster trip on the C-Line, more people would drive to Cleveland Circle, park, and take the train into Boston from there. The resident(s) probably claimed that this feared increase in traffic would be disastrous. The officials probably put that language in to address the residents' concern/cover their ass.
Brookline resident(s) probably predicted that with a faster trip on the C-Line, more people would drive to Cleveland Circle, park, and take the train into Boston from there. The resident(s) probably claimed that this feared increase in traffic would be disastrous. The officials probably put that language in to address the residents' concern/cover their ass.
fattony
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Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos
Is this already a problem with people driving to Cleveland Circle to get the D at Reservoir? The D will remain faster than the C no matter how they play with the traffic lights.
Is this already a problem with people driving to Cleveland Circle to get the D at Reservoir? The D will remain faster than the C no matter how they play with the traffic lights.
bigeman312
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Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos
Correct. However, if there is a public meeting and people complain about something, officials usually feel the need to address the concern, no matter how silly, in some fashion. Take this as either good or bad, depending on how you look at it.
Correct. However, if there is a public meeting and people complain about something, officials usually feel the need to address the concern, no matter how silly, in some fashion. Take this as either good or bad, depending on how you look at it.
statler
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Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos
Say what you will about the T, but they very rarely make single mistakes that cost $70 million.
http://gizmodo.com/france-spent-20-billion-on-trains-that-dont-fit-its-st-1579472990
Say what you will about the T, but they very rarely make single mistakes that cost $70 million.
http://gizmodo.com/france-spent-20-billion-on-trains-that-dont-fit-its-st-1579472990
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Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos
Eh, SNCF is much more comparable to Amtrak than the MBTA.
Eh, SNCF is much more comparable to Amtrak than the MBTA.
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos
Uh, we're talking about the agency that bought Boeings and Bredas... right?
Not to mention the absurdly high premium on new Red Line cars. Paying twice as much for a new subway car as we should, on a big order, adds up.
Uh, we're talking about the agency that bought Boeings and Bredas... right?
Not to mention the absurdly high premium on new Red Line cars. Paying twice as much for a new subway car as we should, on a big order, adds up.
winstonoboogie
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Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos
The MBTA 2015-2019 CIP
http://www.mbta.com/uploadedfiles/A...L FY15-19 MBTA Capital Investment Program.pdf
on page 17, allocates $262 million for 74 Red Line cars and $538 million for 152 Orange Line cars, that comes to about 3.5 million per car.
They are also going to make infrastructure improvements (carhouse repairs, substation overhauls, yard track rebuilds) to better accomodate the new fleets that are also part of the funding package, but that should not be included in the per car price.
The MBTA 2015-2019 CIP
http://www.mbta.com/uploadedfiles/A...L FY15-19 MBTA Capital Investment Program.pdf
on page 17, allocates $262 million for 74 Red Line cars and $538 million for 152 Orange Line cars, that comes to about 3.5 million per car.
They are also going to make infrastructure improvements (carhouse repairs, substation overhauls, yard track rebuilds) to better accomodate the new fleets that are also part of the funding package, but that should not be included in the per car price.
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos
I don't know where the Progressive Railroading article got its quote of $1.3 billion but that's where the number came from. I just noticed that it has a heading of Oct 2013, so well before the CIP was published.
I don't know where the Progressive Railroading article got its quote of $1.3 billion but that's where the number came from. I just noticed that it has a heading of Oct 2013, so well before the CIP was published.
winstonoboogie
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Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos
That $1.3 billion includes the infrastructure improvements to support the new fleets. Per CIP, Red Line infrastructure is $169 million and Orange Line infrastructure work is $335 million. So $262 mil for Red Line cars plus $538 mil for Orange Line cars plus $163 mil for Red infrastructure plus $335 mil for Orange infrastructure, rounding up, is $1.3 Billion. I think "the way forward" proposal put out those numbers before they made it into the CIP, MassDOT also put out a press release when the request for bids for cars was issued last fall, and that is probably what Progressive Railroading used. The blogger obviously made no attempt to verify the numbers (they also got it wrong that the MBTA forced Rotem to build a plant in Philadelphia)
That $1.3 billion includes the infrastructure improvements to support the new fleets. Per CIP, Red Line infrastructure is $169 million and Orange Line infrastructure work is $335 million. So $262 mil for Red Line cars plus $538 mil for Orange Line cars plus $163 mil for Red infrastructure plus $335 mil for Orange infrastructure, rounding up, is $1.3 Billion. I think "the way forward" proposal put out those numbers before they made it into the CIP, MassDOT also put out a press release when the request for bids for cars was issued last fall, and that is probably what Progressive Railroading used. The blogger obviously made no attempt to verify the numbers (they also got it wrong that the MBTA forced Rotem to build a plant in Philadelphia)
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos
Hard to say, since there isn't such a thing really.
But, here's an article noting that NYC spent $960 million for 660 cars. To be sure, that's in 2002 dollars, but to give a point of comparison, that order cost about $1.46 million ($USD 2002) per car. Pretty similar type of equipment that we're ordering. Somehow I don't think that inflation has driven the cost from $1.5 million to $3.5 million for Red/Orange cars. So what is it? Maybe some of it is Boston-specific customizations, and some of it is the smaller order, but I don't think that comes close to accounting for 133% price premium.
Even if the blogger was exaggerating by claiming $5 million per car, I think there's something fishy in spending $3.5 million per car. It should be closer to $2 million, and this difference represents over a hundred million dollars of waste.
Hard to say, since there isn't such a thing really.
But, here's an article noting that NYC spent $960 million for 660 cars. To be sure, that's in 2002 dollars, but to give a point of comparison, that order cost about $1.46 million ($USD 2002) per car. Pretty similar type of equipment that we're ordering. Somehow I don't think that inflation has driven the cost from $1.5 million to $3.5 million for Red/Orange cars. So what is it? Maybe some of it is Boston-specific customizations, and some of it is the smaller order, but I don't think that comes close to accounting for 133% price premium.
Even if the blogger was exaggerating by claiming $5 million per car, I think there's something fishy in spending $3.5 million per car. It should be closer to $2 million, and this difference represents over a hundred million dollars of waste.
FenwayResident
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Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos
To be fair to the MBTA, looking at the per-unit price is not the best metric for heavy, unique machinery, since a large portion of the costs come from the R&D rather than the physical production. The NYC order has three times as many units to spread out the fixed expenses over the MBTA order.
For example, if the R&D were $150M and each car cost $1M in labor and materials (assuming this is the same for both orders), the NYC order would be $1.2M/car and the MBTA order would be $1.7M per car even though they're ordering exactly the same thing.
Now, I'm not defending the MBTA - I'm sure there's unnecessary expenses in thier order. I'm just saying a per-unit comparison is not a fair one.
edit: Sorry, I failed to read the last sentence in your first paragraph!
To be fair to the MBTA, looking at the per-unit price is not the best metric for heavy, unique machinery, since a large portion of the costs come from the R&D rather than the physical production. The NYC order has three times as many units to spread out the fixed expenses over the MBTA order.
For example, if the R&D were $150M and each car cost $1M in labor and materials (assuming this is the same for both orders), the NYC order would be $1.2M/car and the MBTA order would be $1.7M per car even though they're ordering exactly the same thing.
Now, I'm not defending the MBTA - I'm sure there's unnecessary expenses in thier order. I'm just saying a per-unit comparison is not a fair one.
edit: Sorry, I failed to read the last sentence in your first paragraph!
winstonoboogie
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Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos
NYC buys huge quantities of rapid transit cars, the price they get per car is going to be lower than any other U.S. operator. However, NYC also specs cars with very heavy trucks that are too heavy for MBTA standards, so the MBTA (or any other U.S. rapid transit operator for that matter) cannot use NYC rapid transit car designs.
It should be noted that the $3.5 million per car is what the MBTA estimated and what they have allocated funds for. They got six bids, which is a large number of responses. We know for sure that the two builders from China are both very interested in establishing a U.S. facility and getting a U.S. order. The prices might be very competitive. If they come in low enough, they might exercise the option to pick up the 58 additional Red Line cars without having to allocate additional funds beyond the amounts already in the CIP. We really won't know what the real price per car will be until they announce the winning proposal and contract, and that probably won't be until the end of the year.
NYC buys huge quantities of rapid transit cars, the price they get per car is going to be lower than any other U.S. operator. However, NYC also specs cars with very heavy trucks that are too heavy for MBTA standards, so the MBTA (or any other U.S. rapid transit operator for that matter) cannot use NYC rapid transit car designs.
It should be noted that the $3.5 million per car is what the MBTA estimated and what they have allocated funds for. They got six bids, which is a large number of responses. We know for sure that the two builders from China are both very interested in establishing a U.S. facility and getting a U.S. order. The prices might be very competitive. If they come in low enough, they might exercise the option to pick up the 58 additional Red Line cars without having to allocate additional funds beyond the amounts already in the CIP. We really won't know what the real price per car will be until they announce the winning proposal and contract, and that probably won't be until the end of the year.
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos
There should not be any R&D involved. These are subway cars for systems that have been in operation for more than a century. Now, you might have to custom-tailor to system-specific foibles, but honestly you're just slapping a passenger car-body on top of trucks and adding electronics. This is not rocket science. It's probably simpler than building light rail vehicles, even, because these are standard high-floor design.
Any R&D would be a sign of NIH syndrome: Americans rediscovering the wheel, at a steep price premium.
There should not be any R&D involved. These are subway cars for systems that have been in operation for more than a century. Now, you might have to custom-tailor to system-specific foibles, but honestly you're just slapping a passenger car-body on top of trucks and adding electronics. This is not rocket science. It's probably simpler than building light rail vehicles, even, because these are standard high-floor design.
Any R&D would be a sign of NIH syndrome: Americans rediscovering the wheel, at a steep price premium.
DigitalSciGuy
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Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos
While it is an issue, the Guardian (and Gizmodo - per usual) is making more of a spectacle of this than it really is. The principle of the matter is indeed an issue that France needs to work out between SNCF, the operator, and RFF, the infrastructure company. This is similar to the continuous struggle in the UK between the various private operators and the track infrastructure company, Network Rail.
That said, two things:
Also NextGen and ETCS.
People on various networks that I've seen the SNCF 'boondoggle' posted on have made the claim that the resultant added work is surely beneficial to the country, which in some ways is true. However, (at the risk of sounding like I'm flaunting a major European superiority complex) it's nothing compared to America's penchant for exerting the American exceptionalism argument as a justification for reinventing the wheel to fetishise the idea that bespoke is the only way to make sure something works properly.
If there's any similarity to what we've got going with the MBTA to this situation in France, it's that a mishap in the procurement process is bumping up the overall cost of implementing new equipment. That's where the similarities end.
While it is an issue, the Guardian (and Gizmodo - per usual) is making more of a spectacle of this than it really is. The principle of the matter is indeed an issue that France needs to work out between SNCF, the operator, and RFF, the infrastructure company. This is similar to the continuous struggle in the UK between the various private operators and the track infrastructure company, Network Rail.
That said, two things:
- At the scales that SNCF and RFF are working, €50m is not a heck of a lot, especially for infrastructure that would eventually need to be renewed or updated. Greater clearances for wider trains isn't such a bad thing to get out of what the press keeps calling a 'boondoggle'
- This problem need not really apply to the MBTA, because for the most part, the people who write up the vehicle specs (admittedly, usually 3rd party engineering firms) work closely with MBTA employees and the existing volumes of institutional knowledge about track and infrastructure. The only thing that could make this better is a track geometry car like NYC MTA's with laser imaging that can get precise measurements of track and tunnel.
Also NextGen and ETCS.
People on various networks that I've seen the SNCF 'boondoggle' posted on have made the claim that the resultant added work is surely beneficial to the country, which in some ways is true. However, (at the risk of sounding like I'm flaunting a major European superiority complex) it's nothing compared to America's penchant for exerting the American exceptionalism argument as a justification for reinventing the wheel to fetishise the idea that bespoke is the only way to make sure something works properly.
If there's any similarity to what we've got going with the MBTA to this situation in France, it's that a mishap in the procurement process is bumping up the overall cost of implementing new equipment. That's where the similarities end.
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos
Are we actually taking the Chinese offer seriously? Going by their lack of established reputation... and established reputation as an origin of manufacturer... they will be cheap. Maybe they are finally at the stage to start offering quality like other 1st world Asian countries after starting out doing lower quality. If luck out, we would get a great value. But if not, we'll get a debacle worse than the Bredas... we're in no position to absorb another failure like that again.
Are we actually taking the Chinese offer seriously? Going by their lack of established reputation... and established reputation as an origin of manufacturer... they will be cheap. Maybe they are finally at the stage to start offering quality like other 1st world Asian countries after starting out doing lower quality. If luck out, we would get a great value. But if not, we'll get a debacle worse than the Bredas... we're in no position to absorb another failure like that again.