General MBTA Topics (Multi Modal, Budget, MassDOT)

Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

According to a sum of the communities within 128 from the back of my Road Atlas, a Boston expanded to that boundary would contain approx. 2 million people (with a small round-up to account for growth since the last census). It would be the 5th largest city in the US, behind Houston (barely) but ahead of Philadelphia, Phoenix, Dallas, San Francisco, and Detroit, among others.

I'm not sure about how much land is enclosed within 128, but Boston currently comprises only about 49 square miles, the second smallest area in the top 50 population centers behind San Francisco. Philly and Detroit, by comparison, are around 130. Houston is nearly 600.

One of the quirks of Massachusetts is that because of its smaller size, regional efforts like the T and Logan Airport are controlled by the State as opposed to the City Government or a regional semi-public agency (like BART in San Francisco or WMATA in DC) this does expose the T to more rural or generalized interests in a way not felt by those (expanding) systems.

Precisely, why the I-495 urban county is the best solution - even if you were to incorporate all of the inner sity/suburbs inside Rt-128 you would still have a significant component of the metro population outside and most of the developable land without having to tear down estabiised neigborhoods

This is all a consiquence of the rapid spread of the very individualitstic founders of Massachusetts -- if you drive around you will see most of eastern Massachusetts proudly proclaiming that it was incorporated as a town by the later 1600's to the eally 1700s. That meant in turn that outside of the Bosston absorbing already gowing incorporated small towns such as Dorchester Rorxbury, Hyde Park, Charlestown -- by the time of maximum populatin growth in the later 1800's, Boston was hemmed in by already thriving cities of Cambridge to the North, Quincy to the South, Newton to the West and the ocean to the East -- it could densify but it couldn't continue to expand in area except by trading water for land -- which Boston did on an unprecedented scale
 
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

Anyone know how much electrifying a bus route costs per mile? I'm convinced the 104 and 109 are two excellent candidates despite not being talked about like the 1 or 28.
 
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

Anyone know how much electrifying a bus route costs per mile? I'm convinced the 104 and 109 are two excellent candidates despite not being talked about like the 1 or 28.

Funny...both of those routes were trackless trolleys until 1963.


It's pretty expensive to string wires for electric buses. That's why virtually 100% of the TT installations in the world are former streetcar lines that just left the wires up after the trolleys were discontinued. It doesn't justify the cost for new installations unless it's a city (SF, for instance) that has a very dense net of them where route expansions don't involve laying much new infrastructure off the existing network, and where the hilly terrain makes that mode convincingly outperforms diesel (and streetcars when you have San Fran-level steep hills).

For Boston the only moves that make sense are judicious expansion of the existing network...like extending the 77A to the proposed Alewife busways (and probably not all the way to Arlington Heights), extending the 71 the short distance to Newton Corner, or possibly wiring some Transitway feeders. But they'd probably wring more bang-for-buck by buying battery-powered tracklesses that can operate for considerable distance off-wire. Similar to this sweet new LRV model that Kinki-Sharyo is pitching to a bunch of U.S. light rail systems. Has batteries that charge when it's running on-wire, and then can go off-wire and keep a charge through braking friction much like your Prius does. Allows cities to build extensions and interconnecting track faster by incrementally laying track before they have the money to build electrical infrastructure. And works in installations where overhead wire isn't feasible.

That's the sort of thing Boston should be pursuing for its TT's. The dual-modes running on the Silver Line are kind of a Frankenstein design with the diesel and traction engines. TT's are much much more trolley under the hood than bus...not much different than a Mattapan PCC on rubber tires wearing a bus carbody. The T's custom specs bankrupted the manufacturer because the completely incompatible diesel + traction design had never been done before...literally put them out of business. The design works well, and if they need to order new SL vehicles somebody else can just take the blueprints and run with it. But they're expensive as hell, harder to maintain, and won't last nearly as long as the Cambridge TT's which can easily do 3+ decades if they're well-maintained.

So why not ditch the diesel and keep it simple, stupid? The Chevy Volt didn't just roll out of a lab and into a showroom...that friction-braking battery recharge is mature tech perfected in the 90's. The T wouldn't buy that because their inflexible specs stupidly required the vehicles to be able to be pressed into emergency service on regular all-diesel routes (yeah, it's happened a couple times in crazy weather emergencies, but is that really worth overbuilding 32 vehicles to an extreme?).

Buy some articulated electrics with the dirt simple traction motors they've been using for 100 years, and have the same type of off-wire batteries those Kinki LRV's do. That'll buy much cheaper and longer-lasting vehicles that keep the WHOLE Silver Line emissions-free, and can run the full 77 with a wire switch at North Cambridge, extend the 71 to Newton Corner, and maybe even run the 74 with a wire switch at Huron Ave. to keep the fumes in the Harvard tunnel to a minimum. It'll net the economy of scale to support maintaining a much bigger fleet and expanding the electric network from the Harvard and Transitway nodes with more route configurations. And then maybe you can justify those judicious expansions of the wires on routes (77, 71 to NC) where the ridership merits putting in fixed infrastructure. And maybe let you skip over some neighborhoods where the NIMBY's or pols get the vapors at having a couple 1/2" overhead wires obstruct their view of Venus...or whatever the hell their gripe is this week.
 
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

Funny...both of those routes were trackless trolleys until 1963.


It's pretty expensive to string wires for electric buses. That's why virtually 100% of the TT installations in the world are former streetcar lines that just left the wires up after the trolleys were discontinued. It doesn't justify the cost for new installations unless it's a city (SF, for instance) that has a very dense net of them where route expansions don't involve laying much new infrastructure off the existing network, and where the hilly terrain makes that mode convincingly outperforms diesel (and streetcars when you have San Fran-level steep hills).

For Boston the only moves that make sense are judicious expansion of the existing network...like extending the 77A to the proposed Alewife busways (and probably not all the way to Arlington Heights), ...

So why not ditch the diesel and keep it simple, stupid? The Chevy Volt didn't just roll out of a lab and into a showroom...that friction-braking battery recharge is mature tech perfected in the 90's. The T wouldn't buy that because their inflexible specs stupidly required the vehicles to be able to be pressed into emergency service on regular all-diesel routes (yeah, it's happened a couple times in crazy weather emergencies, but is that really worth overbuilding 32 vehicles to an extreme?).

Buy some articulated electrics with the dirt simple traction motors they've been using for 100 years, and have the same type of off-wire batteries those Kinki LRV's do. That'll buy much cheaper and longer-lasting vehicles that keep the WHOLE Silver Line emissions-free, and can run the full 77 with a wire switch at North Cambridge, extend the 71 to Newton Corner, and maybe even run the 74 with a wire switch at Huron Ave. to keep the fumes in the Harvard tunnel to a minimum. It'll net the economy of scale to support maintaining a much bigger fleet and expanding the electric network from the Harvard and Transitway nodes with more route configurations. And then maybe you can justify those judicious expansions of the wires on routes (77, 71 to NC) where the ridership merits putting in fixed infrastructure. And maybe let you skip over some neighborhoods where the NIMBY's or pols get the vapors at having a couple 1/2" overhead wires obstruct their view of Venus...or whatever the hell their gripe is this week.

F-Line
Well there are some good reasons why going off wire is not so simple -- you do get some energy recovery by regenerative braking a la Prius - when you are at high speeds - but as you go slower and slower -- such as a typical 77 Bus crawl on Mass Ave in Cambridge and Arlington, stoping every other block -- your ability to regeneratively brake gets less and less effecient -- you end up having to dump most of your expensiive kinetic energy using friction as heat to the environment.

Now try that on the long and winding Bus lines such as the 62 or 76 and you just might run out of juice somewhere in Bedford

Finallly, in this climate you need to use substantial amounts of your prescious battery energy on heating in the winter and air conditioning in the summer

No -- I don't think it will work except for expanded Silver Line routes in SPID to: BCEC, Marine Industrial Park, Cruise Terminal and Fort Point Chanel and possibly Logan

all of these are short enough duration where the battery can be recharged in a reasonable time on-wire

A nerwer technology called ultra-capacitors might enable more extensive off-wire transit -- but its not ready for primetime
 
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

Hmm, can this technology be adapted to work with heavy rail and 3rd rails? That way an Orange Line expansion can happen where it runs on battery merely for the time it takes to make a wide crossing (and with the 3rd rail then being tapered an even extra distance away from the road).


As for 104 and 109 in particular; I think it would be relatively easy (and I would guess welcomed) to wire routes between Harvard and Sullivan, including Union Square, Central Square, and Inman Square. Then you have some more justifaction for those Sully Sq routes (104 and 109).

Do you have any cost estimates for wiring? I want to attempt to bang out some cost numbers and gas saved, etc.

Ah, the things I would pay out of pocket for if I were Bill Gates... seriously.
 
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

Hmm, can this technology be adapted to work with heavy rail and 3rd rails? That way an Orange Line expansion can happen where it runs on battery merely for the time it takes to make a wide crossing (and with the 3rd rail then being tapered an even extra distance away from the road).


As for 104 and 109 in particular; I think it would be relatively easy (and I would guess welcomed) to wire routes between Harvard and Sullivan, including Union Square, Central Square, and Inman Square. Then you have some more justifaction for those Sully Sq routes (104 and 109).

Do you have any cost estimates for wiring? I want to attempt to bang out some cost numbers and gas saved, etc.

Ah, the things I would pay out of pocket for if I were Bill Gates... seriously.

Problem with batteries are that they are good at storing energy in chemical form - fairly effecient in energy / volume and energy / mass -- but they are not good at charging and discharging - generating heat for both the guzinta and guzouta and they are very poor at rapid transfer of power either in or out

Problem with traditional capacitors -- while they charge and discharge rapidly and effeciently (very little heat generated) either in / or out -- becasue they store the energy in the electrc field in the insullator between the plates -- they are not very effecient with respect to energy / volume nor energy / mass

So people tried combining capacitors and batteries and instead of the best -- what resulted was mostly the worst of the two types of storage. However, new technology dubbed ultra capacitors are making progress toward good storage and good charge / discharge properties

The other competitor is the modern very high strength material flywheels spinning at very high rotation in a vacuum -- these store energy quite effeciently in terms of mass -- though not quite so good in terms of energy / volume. Flyweeels are also quite good at charge / discharge rates and losses -- these are viewed as likely candidates for on/off wire transi vehicles where the size of the units is not a major constraint. Howerver as with any flywheel there is the gyro effect which can limit speed of turning in a direction perpendicular to the axis of rotation of the flywheel.
 
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

Hmm, can this technology be adapted to work with heavy rail and 3rd rails? That way an Orange Line expansion can happen where it runs on battery merely for the time it takes to make a wide crossing (and with the 3rd rail then being tapered an even extra distance away from the road).


As for 104 and 109 in particular; I think it would be relatively easy (and I would guess welcomed) to wire routes between Harvard and Sullivan, including Union Square, Central Square, and Inman Square. Then you have some more justifaction for those Sully Sq routes (104 and 109).

Do you have any cost estimates for wiring? I want to attempt to bang out some cost numbers and gas saved, etc.

Ah, the things I would pay out of pocket for if I were Bill Gates... seriously.

It's not so much stringing the wire as the substations that generate it. Bringing a feed where there never has been one before requires building large substations often a good distance away from the line, laying trunk cables along the line, and laying trunk cables interconnecting with the rest of the system for load-sharing (for example, wiring to the T's emergency power plant to keep critical systems powered in a blackout). Catenary is separated from the neighborhood grid and wired in via these trunk lines at more robust substations. That's why when a station loses power from a neighborhood blackout the trains, signals, tunnel lights keep operating. It was ungodly expensive to create the Transitway feed from scratch, and that's much shorter-distance TT wire than an all-new route out of Sullivan would have. The Green Line extension's cost is also inflated a fair chunk by the few miles of extra wire, all-new substations, and large power draw from the maintenance yard.


The battery-powered vehicles are better for incremental build-outs. The 71 really needs to go to Newton Corner. The number of transfers there are too critical to have it pinned in at Watertown, and there'd be impetus for a future commuter rail station there replacing the express buses if there were a one-seat ride to Harvard in it. It would be a big deal to be able to ride that extra 1/2 mile, but it can't because it's tethered and Watertown will revolt if the T started putting diesels on Mt. Auburn. An intermediate off-wire step solves that, and then the exploding ridership makes stringing a half-mile of overhead a later no-brainer (esp. because it's so close to Watertown carhouse it probably doesn't even require power upgrades). I think same could be said for the 77A if it went to the future Alewife busways, filled in the North Cambridge-Alewife gap that the 79 doesn't traverse, and allowed a subset of diesel 77's to run limited to the town line. Do that...then build out the wires to Alewife when the ridership's bankable. If feasible, then run the full 77 on battery from the border to Heights if 2 miles is adequate battery range (could always put in an isolated recharge loop in the Heights layover yard on the local grid).

Those are realistic scenarios that'll work. It's a lot easier to expand the Harvard or Transitway networks incrementally when it doesn't require a massive substation build-out or those long-distance trunks being laid well out of town. Just a boost on the existing draws, maybe small intermediate substations on the North Cambridge and Watertown ends to sub-divide the circuit breaks, and the off-wire vehicles for routes that don't exceed more than short distances. That'll be enough to run a lot more TT's to support short off-wire excursions, then do the follow-through on the wire expansions. Really not much different than the improvements they made to Green Line power in the 90's in prep for the Type 8's and all 3-car trains. These enhancements would be possible with this:
-- 71 extension to Newton Corner on battery, then follow-through on wire extension.
-- 77A to Alewife on battery, then wire extension. Eventual full 77 on battery from the border out.
-- 74/75 with new wire changeover (Armory seems like a good spot), then battery to Belmont Ctr.
-- 69 with wire changeover at Broadway/Cambridge St. split and recharge loop at Lechmere off the Green Line feed.
-- 68 with wire changeover at Broadway/Cambridge St. split and recharge loop at Kendall off the Red Line feed.
-- 96 off-wire where it turns off Mass Ave. in North Cambridge, if Davis-W. Medford is adequate on battery.

Put all the TT's in the tunnel, diesels on the surface. Now you've got 68/69/71/72/73/75/77/96 all-electric in the tunnel, and the 1/66/78/86 on the surface. At no more cost than the new fleet, 2 miles total of new wire, and feed upgrades only to the existing carhouses. Open Watertown carhouse full-time and there's your added vehicle storage.

I'd much rather do something like this than the extreme cost of laying all-new power infrastructure at an all-new TT terminal. Fresh electrification is money much better spent on power for rapid-transit expansion.
 
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

Why aren't the SL Dudley lines wired? (I don't mean in your map, I mean actually?)

In terms of your map, electrifying the 1 bus is I think a great idea - especially if bus lanes and signal priority gave it more of a rapid transit feel. But instead of running to Dudley I would extend it to continue along Mass Ave (redevelopment potential around Newmarket) and via Columbia Road into JFK/Umass and continuing into Columbia Point to serve the university. I think this creates a very logical bypass of downtown for urban ring style commuters north, south, and west.
 
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

Why aren't the SL Dudley lines wired? (I don't mean in your map, I mean actually?)

In terms of your map, electrifying the 1 bus is I think a great idea - especially if bus lanes and signal priority gave it more of a rapid transit feel. But instead of running to Dudley I would extend it to continue along Mass Ave (redevelopment potential around Newmarket) and via Columbia Road into JFK/Umass and continuing into Columbia Point to serve the university. I think this creates a very logical bypass of downtown for urban ring style commuters north, south, and west.

I had actually thought about the SL while doing this, I thought "okay, and here, the 1 will run on the Silver Line wires- wait- no, why isn't the silver line even wired here?"


Have to say I agree, though. Though the CT1 is supposed to be the "urban ring", so perhaps keep the 1 as is and run the CT1 over to UMass.
 
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

Forget SL dudley, why the hell isnt SL2 (and what was SL3) wired?

Would have meant the only dual-mode buses you need are some for SL1, instead of ALL of them.
 
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

Forget SL dudley, why the hell isnt SL2 (and what was SL3) wired?

Would have meant the only dual-mode buses you need are some for SL1, instead of ALL of them.

Jass -- then you've got to ask why did the tunnel stop short of D Street
 
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

This seems like a really stupid and obvious question that I'm sure someone has asked before, but why the hell don't they just attach the same GPS/real-time-data devices they use on the buses to the GL trains???

At this point, it doesn't even matter if it doesn't work too well underground. The majority of the GL is above ground.
 
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

Because that would be smart. And we cant have that.

And we all know everybody loves standing on a 11 inch wide piece of asphalt when its 9 degrees and windy out waiting for a train that may be 13 minutes away.
 
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

This seems like a really stupid and obvious question that I'm sure someone has asked before, but why the hell don't they just attach the same GPS/real-time-data devices they use on the buses to the GL trains???

At this point, it doesn't even matter if it doesn't work too well underground. The majority of the GL is above ground.

And the commuter rail.

http://www.mbtainfo.com/commuter_rail
 
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

So is there really no technical answer to my question?
 
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

So is there really no technical answer to my question?

Its the same technical reason the green line trains do not tell the traffic lights theyre waiting, even though the traffic lights are all "y'all tell me when you want to go and Ill see it happens immediately" and the MBTA is all like "thats cool, we'll sit here indefinitely even if theres not a soul in sight"
 
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

The T said that they didn't see a benefit to the cost.
 
Re: Driven By Customer 'Service' Parte Dos

The T said that they didn't see a benefit to the cost.

Busiest (and possibly the most unreliable) LR system in the country doesn't benefit from real-time data?
 

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