Green Line Extension to Medford & Union Sq

Re: Green Line to Medford to start in 2011

So, if I'm understanding this right,

None of the station designs have actually been finalized yet, and they are all being designed so as not to preclude a conversion to Green Line Heavy Rail but there is no plans to actually convert the Line as of today.

Right?
 
Re: Green Line to Medford to start in 2011

Commuting Boston Student said:
So, if I'm understanding this right,

None of the station designs have actually been finalized yet, and they are all being designed so as not to preclude a conversion to Green Line Heavy Rail but there is no plans to actually convert the Line as of today.

Right?
Click to expand...

Well...all Green Line extensions since 1930 have been provisioned for heavy rail conversion. Kenmore was designed so the trackbed for the B platforms could be dropped down easily to high-platform level, converted to heavy rail on an extended tunnel, and to revert the C to just be a looping Mattapan-like trolley line on the outer platforms. They can convert Medford whenever they want or see the need to. We just don't know if that's 2035, 2075, or never. The point in getting the stations designed right is to not be dumbasses and cut just that one little careless design corner that'll totally preclude conversion without blowing up and starting over.

This isn't lost on STEP. The 1945 proposal for this extension went all the way to Woburn Ctr. Some distant future when Lowell's an HSR line it's going to beckon for the commuter rail stops out to Anderson to flip over to rapid transit so the HSR's can book it 160 MPH out of town. If there's a rapid-transit line ever put through 2 of the 4 North-South Link tracks that's where this heavy rail impetus is going to come from...be it fed from Red or Orange. STEP's even badgered them about digging the wiring conduits between the Green and CR tracks and using overhead poles designed so they can attach a bracket arm over the CR tracks should they ever electrify that. Little future-proofing details like that. I think with how paranoid they are about some passive-aggressive trojan horse being buried in the designs (see the triplicate-checking that Union won't preclude future Porter), they're going to be very careful to build it right. Too much riding on this.
 
Re: Green Line to Medford to start in 2011

On another thread somewhere posted to a guy that has made a new MBTA system map, and he has included one with green line extension added in ( http://www.flickr.com/photos/senexprime/6829024088 ). When i look at the map with the extension added in it just further adds to my belief that when it is completed the green line should be, for mapping and understandability purposes, split into 2 separate lines. I'm not talking about any physical changes, just start calling it the green line and, say, the brown line. One of the lines ends at Union Square, one ends at Route 16, and the B, C, D, and E branches are divided up 2 and 2 however makes more sense in terms of scheduling. The lines can share platforms for the overlapping stations, much like they do in DC. This reorganization of the green line I think would clear up alot of confusion.
 
Re: Green Line to Medford to start in 2011

found5dollar said:
On another thread somewhere posted to a guy that has made a new MBTA system map, and he has included one with green line extension added in ( http://www.flickr.com/photos/senexprime/6829024088 ). When i look at the map with the extension added in it just further adds to my belief that when it is completed the green line should be, for mapping and understandability purposes, split into 2 separate lines. I'm not talking about any physical changes, just start calling it the green line and, say, the brown line. One of the lines ends at Union Square, one ends at Route 16, and the B, C, D, and E branches are divided up 2 and 2 however makes more sense in terms of scheduling. The lines can share platforms for the overlapping stations, much like they do in DC. This reorganization of the green line I think would clear up alot of confusion.
Click to expand...

That map looks great--much nicer than the latest T maps, with the new wimpy curve of the E line.

I really don't see the need for a new line color, though. I'm assuming this will just extend the splitting of the Green Line on the north/east side of the city as it always has on the west, with more frequent service along a single corridor in the city center. Granted, that makes it a little more confusing, but I think you could do something like call the Route 16 branch running from wherever on the west end (Kenmore?) the "A Line" or something, and maybe the E Line will then run from Heath St to Union Square. A more detailed map of the Green Line, like this one at Kenmore, would further clarify it:

map-green.jpg
 
Re: Green Line to Medford to start in 2011

The current plan is to extend the "E" to Union Square and the "D" to Medford.
 
Re: Green Line to Medford to start in 2011

Unsure if this site has be posted before, but it has great constantly updated 3D renderings http://www.somervillestep.org/map/

Click on green T balloons for each stations renderings
 
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Re: Green Line to Medford to start in 2011

FrankLloydMike said:
map-green.jpg
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I have never seen that map before but it helps out alot. I can't tell you the number of times when I interned at the Museum of Science there would be a tourist waiting for a train that wasn't an E and I had to explain that they wouldn't find one there. the current full map and layout of the green line does nothing to inform riders of this. Splitting up the line on maps is the only real solution I see..
 
Re: Green Line to Medford to start in 2011

Yeah, I have loved those new Green Line maps since they were released a couple years ago. The first one debuted at Gov't Center after the signage upgrade because it still had maps from the 60s. Copley came next because it also had maps with the A line.
 
Re: Green Line to Medford to start in 2011

^ I believe Kenmore, Arlington, Park St, and North Station also have that map, among some others.
 
Re: Green Line to Medford to start in 2011

Meh, that map has major problems too. The red diamond "you are here" is not intuitive and looks like a red line connection. The connections all look clumsy, and some are actually misleading - for example at North Station it appears that the C line does not connect to the OL and the E line doesn't connect to the CR. The pics above don't show this, but there's also a major problem in which the line ahead of you (based on whether you are waiting at inbound or outbound) is dark green, but behind you in light green. Again, non-intuitive. Overall a good idea conceptually but very poorly executed.
 
Re: Green Line to Medford to start in 2011

^ I don't know that any of those are "major problems". More like complaining about the font of the signs in the South End...
 
Re: Green Line to Medford to start in 2011

The problems I mentioned can get people lost or send them out of their way. How is that not major?
 
Re: Green Line to Medford to start in 2011

How would someone get lost? The Diamond "You Are Here" is clearly marked in the key. The North Station transfers could cause someone pause, but the announcements when you arrive at the station would clear up any confusion. The inbound/outbound - light/dark green issue, I haven't seen, and can't really picture, so I'll let that one be.
 
Re: Green Line to Medford to start in 2011

BussesAin'tTrains said:
How would someone get lost? The Diamond "You Are Here" is clearly marked in the key. The North Station transfers could cause someone pause, but the announcements when you arrive at the station would clear up any confusion. The inbound/outbound - light/dark green issue, I haven't seen, and can't really picture, so I'll let that one be.
Click to expand...

I agree. As with Shepard, there are some things I would tweak in the design, but I think it's pretty intuitive and easy to understand. Perhaps overly complicated with the shading of green and marking the connections on either side of the lines, but these are minor complaints. Overall, I think the map does a great job of clarifying the Green Line, and would prevent the sort of confusion that found5dollar brought up. I think the simple, single Green Line diagram in the system map works well and keeps the system map simple, with this more detailed map within the Green Line.
 
Re: Green Line to Medford to start in 2011

Is the commuter rail going to stop at any of the GLX stations? Maybe a stop at College Ave. would make sense for the Lowell line. I guess once the Route 16 stop gets built, the West Medford commuter rail stop might as well move there since it's so close.
 
Re: Green Line to Medford to start in 2011

cozzyd said:
Is the commuter rail going to stop at any of the GLX stations? Maybe a stop at College Ave. would make sense for the Lowell line. I guess once the Route 16 stop gets built, the West Medford commuter rail stop might as well move there since it's so close.
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College Ave. had a CR stop from 1976-79 called "Tufts University". Closed due to extremely low ridership; experiment was a dismal failure. And that was when Lowell Line service levels were higher than today with the main also handling 2 branches: all Haverhill trains, and the old Woburn Branch short-turn. They whacked it when they initiated the short-lived Concord, NH service because it was just empty idling time on the schedule. There's not a lot of demand for direct Green-to-CR transfers because of the way that particular line is geared to micro-to-micro destinations. Riverside also had a CR stop on the mainline that also closed in '77 (platform remnants and a rickety old wood walkway to the GL station still visible) for the same reason, although that one was such a long walk that the transfer itself was inconvenient. Almost all of your GLX ridership is going inbound, not outbound. And replacing the function of any would-be Lowell Line stops in Somerville like that old Tufts stop that would otherwise ham-fistedly have to pull double-duty as locals a la the Worcester Line's Newton stops for lack of better alternative.

The CR-to-rapid transit stops that work--like Porter on the Fitchburg or Ruggles on the NEC--also have a dense net of criscrossing buses that no GLX stop has. Nothing that hits those stops has the heft of the 77/96/83 and the Red Line offering quick transfer at Harvard and one-seat ride to South Station. The 80/88/90 all run to either Lechmere (GL stop) or Sullivan (easier superstation transfer), so there's not compelling transfer need. When Mike Capuano was rambling about building GLX as far as they could get it then sticking a CR platform there he wasn't riffing from a place of knowledge about actual commute patterns on the corridor.

The original-original GLX proposal to West Medford would've had the CR transfer, but that's only because the Green stop would've been on the south side of the grade crossing and the Lowell stop at its current location on the north side. The existing stop wouldn't need to be touched. There's also a lot more unique bus routes hitting West Medford than any other stop en route.


The Union Sq. CR station idea that pops up time to time and got a low-priority MPO project rating is similarly dubious. Their thinking on that was getting something rapid-transitish to Waltham Ctr. and the big bus hub there, but the ridership projections cited wilt under any sort of scrutiny. 3 stops to North Station for a transfer...that's not going to offer any convenience for a Union CR platform with how much it would slow the Fitchburg schedule with Porter nearby. 87 runs to Lechmere...86/91 to Sullivan (North Station transfer). 86/91 in other direction and 85/CT2 are Harvard/Central/Kendall, so you're transferring at Porter to Red instead of bothering with those routes. Fitchburg Line is free from NS to Porter anyway.

Every time they bring this Union CR proposal up they quickly go mum because they've essentially stated the whole justification for pushing the Green Line past Union to some future Porter terminal by talking about the benefits of a CR platform at Union. And of course the prospect of any more icky-poo improvements to the rapid-transit system gives the state the vapors and puts a twinkle in STEP's eye. So, there. . .
 
Re: Green Line to Medford to start in 2011

FrankLloydMike said:
I agree. As with Shepard, there are some things I would tweak in the design, but I think it's pretty intuitive and easy to understand. Perhaps overly complicated with the shading of green and marking the connections on either side of the lines, but these are minor complaints. Overall, I think the map does a great job of clarifying the Green Line, and would prevent the sort of confusion that found5dollar brought up. I think the simple, single Green Line diagram in the system map works well and keeps the system map simple, with this more detailed map within the Green Line.
Click to expand...

I agree, this map is pretty good, granting that there is always room for tweaking. What I like most about it is the way it clearly demonstrates that the Green Line is actually four lines that happen to share a section of track for part of their respective routes. I've never understood why the MBTA claims to have four urban rail lines. In actuality, it's at least 8, and arguably could be considered to be 9. Other cities (eg DC, SF) would never under count the number of lines, which only serves to give the impression that the system is less than it is.
 
Re: Green Line to Medford to start in 2011

HenryAlan said:
I agree, this map is pretty good, granting that there is always room for tweaking. What I like most about it is the way it clearly demonstrates that the Green Line is actually four lines that happen to share a section of track for part of their respective routes. I've never understood why the MBTA claims to have four urban rail lines. In actuality, it's at least 8, and arguably could be considered to be 9. Other cities (eg DC, SF) would never under count the number of lines, which only serves to give the impression that the system is less than it is.
Click to expand...

I always consider San Francisco's Muni Metro to be the west coast sibling (fraternal twins, even) of the Green Line. It's a bunch of light rail lines that share the same central subway tunnel before fanning out on their own and running above ground. They've always done a MUCH better job at differentiating each light rail line (Letters AND colors) than the MBTA has on the Green Line. Those new maps do a far better job of differentiating.
 
Re: Green Line to Medford to start in 2011

Lrfox said:
I always consider San Francisco's Muni Metro to be the west coast sibling (fraternal twins, even) of the Green Line. It's a bunch of light rail lines that share the same central subway tunnel before fanning out on their own and running above ground. They've always done a MUCH better job at differentiating each light rail line (Letters AND colors) than the MBTA has on the Green Line. Those new maps do a far better job of differentiating.
Click to expand...

It does do a better job of differentiating lines, and like HenryAlan, I'd kind of like to see the T accurately count the number of lines it has--plenty of transit systems use a single central artery (subway or otherwise) for lines that fan out as they move away from the downtown.

Still, the T subway/light-rail is a much more comprehensive system than the Muni Metro, which is separate from the BART. It will be a little more complicated once there are branches to the north as there are already to the west--and it's even a little more complicated now that not all the lines run to Lechmere or even North Station. Still, I think for the purpose of a system map, as well as for an understanding of the portion of the Green Line that many visitors (and even locals) use, it makes sense to keep a single GL with branches with a more detailed map like the one at Kenmore as a supplement.

Can you imagine a map like this embedded in the middle of the T system map? I think it would be overload, even if it's more accurate:

20080612175440_MUNI%20METRO%20San%20Francisco%20map.png
 
Re: Green Line to Medford to start in 2011

That map doesnt include the F line.
 
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