Green Line Extension to Medford & Union Sq

[ant8904]

Re: Green Line to Medford to start in 2011

Is it wrong that I feel the exact same way? I'm all for community input, but where does it stop? How much time and money will be lost because of having to move the maintainence yard due to neighborhood pressure?

Time is money and who knows how transit-friendly the next governor is going to be? The clock is ticking to get this thing going.

"Transit-friendly" governor is debatable. All these extra meetings does sound like another kick-and-screaming tactic. Even resorting to retaining wall meetings to put it off just a little longer, but perhaps long enough for the next administration. One thing I did liked the idea of a return of a Democrat governor was Democrats was suppose to be for transit - even if only motivated "ideologically" in the same vain as Republicans seem to love roads and hate trains rather than either side looking at most optimal improvements. After all these years, I seen some changes, but the big ones like GLX seems only somewhat more real.

I live on those of the neighborhoods now. Anyone got any suggestions to nicely tell them to just start already?

 

[choo]

Re: Green Line to Medford to start in 2011

Who is leading with all the meetings and schedules and delays? The city is begging for it. You'd think the T would want it. The studies and ROW are pretty much done. This better just be part of the process and not a delay.

 

[Arlington]

Re: Green Line to Medford to start in 2011

Who is leading with all the meetings and schedules and delays? The city is begging for it. You'd think the T would want it. The studies and ROW are pretty much done. This better just be part of the process and not a delay.

There's another way to think of it: maybe its that they are accelerating the retaining walls and bike paths--a way of making progress and delivering mobility sooner-- because those don't require new rolling stock (Type 9s) and new yard space like actually operating the GLX (past Washington St) will.

Did they ever come up with an offsetting improvement to compensate for the delays the GLX has already suffered? Soemthing tells me the best they did was some Fairmont stuff, which, while OK on a CO2 basis, is pretty slim comfort for Somerville.

A faster roll out of the bike path from Cedar St to say, Washington St (or all the way to Lechmere/No Sta), now *that* would be a nice offset. (I preferred a new 80X express bus--stopping only at the new stations and perhaps halfway in between....but no dice)

 

[kjdonovan]

Re: Green Line to Medford to start in 2011

These meetings are mostly for direct abutters of the project, who need to know details about where the walls will be built and what temporary or permanent easements the T will need on their properties.

Guys, Ron is right. This isn't a delay. These are "FYI, we're going to be building in your backyard in six months" meetings. The project is actually underway and they are already throwing up retaining walls at the Harvard Street Bridge in Medford.

The schedule is pretty much as follows: the whole thing moves to 100% design this summer. Construction on the Lechmere to Washington and Lechmere to Union routes commences this summer/fall, slows down in the winter, gets real heavy in 2015. Remember, these first three stations are already paid for so this isn't a delay because of money.

In the meeting last night they had a really cool video render of riding the T from Lechmere to the Union/Washington stations and back. It's going to be posted to their site soon. It actually shows a completed 22 Water St, which was fun to see in context of the retaining walls and the tracks.

Also, biggest news (at least it was news to me) was that they've agreed to build the community path from Washington station to NorthPoint (i.e., Somerville to the Boston line) and call it the legally-required emergency egress from the stations. Kind of a sneaky way of squeezing it into the scope of the project. I had to ask them multiple time to confirm that this is not a "100% design" but an actual build for 2016. The path in this section (between McGrath/Inner Belt/NorthPoint) is kind of crazy. A separated, elevated bridge that crosses the already elevated Fitchburg T tracks and the Lowell tracks before returning to ground level in NorthPoint. They had to play the video a few times to get a handle on it.

If you geek on any of this stuff I recommend trying to make the Washington station meeting to at least see some of that video, and the path.

 

[DominusNovus]

Re: Green Line to Medford to start in 2011

One thing I did liked the idea of a return of a Democrat governor was Democrats was suppose to be for transit - even if only motivated "ideologically" in the same vain as Republicans seem to love roads and hate trains rather than either side looking at most optimal improvements.

Not to get further off topic onto politics, but I would like to chime in:

I think one of the reasons why Republicans tend to be perceived as less gung ho about transit projects like this is that delays in public projects drive them apoplectic. Roads are easy. Everyone uses roads, sees roads, and intuitively knows how to make roads better: if they're too bumpy, repave them; if they're too narrow, widen them. Road projects are just a fact of life, they're always going on (well, not in the winter but you get my drift).

Meanwhile, rail line extensions get bogged down in meetings, meetings about when to hold meetings, studies to investigate the carbon footprint of having so many meetings, committees to determine which special interest groups coordinate the studies investigating the carbon footprints of having so many meetings...

Now, if this is a project that you care about, of course its going to piss you off, regardless of ideology. But if its not a project you care about (new habitats for the purple breasted great northeastern warbling chipmunk, for example), you won't get bothered too much if nothing gets done; you might not even know about it. However, if you're a fiscal conservative, you're going to look at every project, and regardless of whether you think the goal itself is admirable, you're going to be incredibly skeptical of anything that doesn't just get fucking done. How many decades is this project behind schedule?

Consider this: when the GLX was first agreed to in legally binding terms, Northeastern University was a vast sea of parking lots.

 

[Commuting Boston Student]

Re: Green Line to Medford to start in 2011

Meanwhile, rail line extensions get bogged down in meetings, meetings about when to hold meetings, studies to investigate the carbon footprint of having so many meetings, committees to determine which special interest groups coordinate the studies investigating the carbon footprints of having so many meetings...

Now, if this is a project that you care about, of course its going to piss you off, regardless of ideology. But if its not a project you care about (new habitats for the purple breasted great northeastern warbling chipmunk, for example), you won't get bothered too much if nothing gets done; you might not even know about it. However, if you're a fiscal conservative, you're going to look at every project, and regardless of whether you think the goal itself is admirable, you're going to be incredibly skeptical of anything that doesn't just get fucking done. How many decades is this project behind schedule?

I want to just quote this part of your post because, absent the side conversation about politics and ideologies - the general sentiment of "everything is behind schedule, everything is always delayed and bogged down and studied to death" - this is why I am, naturally, a very angry person. And it's why I just don't really bother thinking about the on-the-ground impact of anything I propose because, quite frankly, why should I bother?

No, really, why should I bother? Trying to be nice and think about how friendly landowners get impacted by my drawing lines on a map only causes things to get mitigated and compromised down to states of relative uselessness and even then we're still talking about decades of setbacks and town hall meetings and oh so very much discussion. That's absolutely no different from if I start from a position of "I want everything to be perfect - just like so." We're still going to be discussing the HSR improvements to the Northeast Corridor 40 years from now, we're probably still going to be talking about most of the reasonable incremental improvements that get pitched here and elsewhere 40 years from now, we'll probably be cracking jokes about how an 18-month improvement project has been "18 months away from completion since 2014" come 40 years from now, asking for the sun and the moon and the stars is going to get our plans walked back just as much as trying to pitch something "good enough" will.

In the end, nothing changes, and nothing gets done, because talk is cheap and in no short supply, but nobody has an appetite for action any more. We should count our blessings that shovels are in the ground on the Green Line and maybe we'll be able to ride a GLX train in 2021. Forget anything that wasn't entered into law as a You Must Do This project.

This post degenerated into me screaming like a frothing lunatic more times than I'm comfortable with (and it's still probably several shades too "angry"), and it's doing a very good job of reaffirming in my mind that I never want to be the guy who has to give the press conference on anything I design. Just let me draw my lines on a map and get someone else to sell them to the public. I give up. I don't have it in me to be a politician or a salesman.

 

[bigeman312]

Re: Green Line to Medford to start in 2011

Consider this: when the GLX was first agreed to in legally binding terms, Northeastern University was a vast sea of parking lots.

Haha, yeah. And when it was first proposed in an official document, there was a 3rd grader at Nobles named John F. Kennedy.

 

[Arlington]

Re: Green Line to Medford to start in 2011

This post degenerated into me screaming like a frothing lunatic more times than I'm comfortable with (and it's still probably several shades too "angry"), and it's doing a very good job of reaffirming in my mind that I never want to be the guy who has to give the press conference on anything I design. Just let me draw my lines on a map and get someone else to sell them to the public. I give up. I don't have it in me to be a politician or a salesman.

Its natural. If you haven't read a good book lately, take a break and try: The Power Broker: Robert Moses and the Fall of New York. The pro-transit part of your brain will be appalled at Robert Moses' ability to get roads built. The urbanist wll thrill to the parks and World's fairs. The "get it built" part will be blown away by what he got done.

 

[Arch101]

Re: Green Line to Medford to start in 2011

Its natural. If you haven't read a good book lately, take a break and try: The Power Broker: Robert Moses and the Fall of New York. The pro-transit part of your brain will be appalled at Robert Moses' ability to get roads built. The urbanist wll thrill to the parks and World's fairs. The "get it built" part will be blown away by what he got done.

^^I'll second that! Best biography ever written and a must-read for anyone interested in the built environment.

 

[davem]

Re: Green Line to Medford to start in 2011

Moses's ability to "get things done" makes him my personal hero.

What he did get done however, notsomuch...

 

[Matthew]

Re: Green Line to Medford to start in 2011

Moses was a "hacker" of law. He knew how to hide goodies for himself in the most obscure legal language, got himself into the bill writing process, and inserted all sorts of protections for himself and his public authorities. Also helps that he made friends with Al Smith early on.

 

[davem]

Re: Green Line to Medford to start in 2011

Moses was a "hacker" of law. He knew how to hide goodies for himself in the most obscure legal language, got himself into the bill writing process, and inserted all sorts of protections for himself and his public authorities. Also helps that he made friends with Al Smith early on.

Oh I know... I never said he was my hero because of his pure spirit and good will

 

[Matthew]

Re: Green Line to Medford to start in 2011

Sometimes I forget that "hacker" has a negative connotation outside of the computer community.

 

[cbrett]

Re: Green Line to Medford to start in 2011

I want to just quote this part of your post because, absent the side conversation about politics and ideologies - the general sentiment of "everything is behind schedule, everything is always delayed and bogged down and studied to death" - this is why I am, naturally, a very angry person. And it's why I just don't really bother thinking about the on-the-ground impact of anything I propose because, quite frankly, why should I bother?

No, really, why should I bother? Trying to be nice and think about how friendly landowners get impacted by my drawing lines on a map only causes things to get mitigated and compromised down to states of relative uselessness and even then we're still talking about decades of setbacks and town hall meetings and oh so very much discussion. That's absolutely no different from if I start from a position of "I want everything to be perfect - just like so." We're still going to be discussing the HSR improvements to the Northeast Corridor 40 years from now, we're probably still going to be talking about most of the reasonable incremental improvements that get pitched here and elsewhere 40 years from now, we'll probably be cracking jokes about how an 18-month improvement project has been "18 months away from completion since 2014" come 40 years from now, asking for the sun and the moon and the stars is going to get our plans walked back just as much as trying to pitch something "good enough" will.

In the end, nothing changes, and nothing gets done, because talk is cheap and in no short supply, but nobody has an appetite for action any more. We should count our blessings that shovels are in the ground on the Green Line and maybe we'll be able to ride a GLX train in 2021. Forget anything that wasn't entered into law as a You Must Do This project.

This post degenerated into me screaming like a frothing lunatic more times than I'm comfortable with (and it's still probably several shades too "angry"), and it's doing a very good job of reaffirming in my mind that I never want to be the guy who has to give the press conference on anything I design. Just let me draw my lines on a map and get someone else to sell them to the public. I give up. I don't have it in me to be a politician or a salesman.

Think like that and you end up with entire neighborhoods destroyed for highways and urban renewal. If you're degenerating into screaming like a frothing lunatic then maybe it would be best to cool off before you post.

 

[GW2500]

Re: Green Line to Medford to start in 2011

This thing has been talked to death, resurected, then crucified with more studies and meetings. The title of this thread says it all, which began in 2006 by the way. It's relavant to note that there is already train tracks running through these people's back yards, back yards that just about everyone of them bought when the tracks in place. Sometimes you get what you pay for.

 

[Commuting Boston Student]

Re: Green Line to Medford to start in 2011

Think like that and you end up with entire neighborhoods destroyed for highways and urban renewal. If you're degenerating into screaming like a frothing lunatic then maybe it would be best to cool off before you post.

Like I said... I'm done. I'm through caring about the impact my line-drawing may or may not have on neighborhoods or communities, since nothing gets done either way.

We're all going to choke to death on asphalt and gasoline. I've resigned myself to this, even as I keep drawing my lines on my maps. Everyone else can feel good about fighting the great specter of change - and it might as well be an ambitious vision of change they fight against.

This thing has been talked to death, resurected, then crucified with more studies and meetings. The title of this thread says it all, which began in 2006 by the way. It's relavant to note that there is already train tracks running through these people's back yards, back yards that just about everyone of them bought when the tracks in place. Sometimes you get what you pay for.

And this one has the full weight of a binding legal agreement behind it.

Look what becomes of all the projects that don't.

 

[George_Apley]

Re: Green Line to Medford to start in 2011

^ Did someone trample on your diorama as a child or something?

 

[Commuting Boston Student]

Re: Green Line to Medford to start in 2011

^ Did someone trample on your diorama as a child or something?

A great many people, actually.

To contextualize my frustration and my resignation, consider this article, particularly the section I've quoted: (emphasis mine)

But the most interesting barriers to all-day service arise through our transit decision-making process, especially transit agencies' eagerness to respond to public comments. It takes time to understand and comment on a transit issue, or to plug into an advocacy group, so it's almost a tautology that transit agencies hear disproportionately from time-rich people, such as seniors and the non-working disabled, rather than from busy people. All-day frequent transit can be very successful, but the people who benefit most rarely speak up to demand it. They're too busy.

Now, in the context of that, consider how much less of an impact running a pair of tracks will have on its surroundings relative to four or more lanes of asphalt. Consider how much less space railroads take up compared to freeways in general, and consider how we're more than capable (not in Boston, but elsewhere) of creating ever sleeker, ever slimmer elevated structures and our ability to tunnel is similarly improving.

I'm not denying that there's an impact on the immediate surroundings of any railroad during construction and after construction, but the actual impact of a new railroad or a new tunnel project is always going to be less than a road project if all other things are equal.

So when all new construction is lumped into the same big ol' pile of "neighborhood destruction and urban renewal" - when suggesting that maybe an elevated ROW is appropriate somewhere is treated to the same horrified reactions as suggesting a new six-lane arterial road might be - when we spend literal decades talking and mitigating and compromising over a legally-required extension of a trolley line at the same time as not one but several far more destructive roadworks projects get approved around the country - you might understand why I could become numb to cries of "but what about the neighborhood?! Won't you think of the community impact!?"

 

[JumboBuc]

Re: Green Line to Medford to start in 2011

Now, in the context of that, consider how much less of an impact running a pair of tracks will have on its surroundings relative to four or more lanes of asphalt. Consider how much less space railroads take up compared to freeways in general, and consider how we're more than capable (not in Boston, but elsewhere) of creating ever sleeker, ever slimmer elevated structures and our ability to tunnel is similarly improving.

I'm not denying that there's an impact on the immediate surroundings of any railroad during construction and after construction, but the actual impact of a new railroad or a new tunnel project is always going to be less than a road project if all other things are equal.

So when all new construction is lumped into the same big ol' pile of "neighborhood destruction and urban renewal" - when suggesting that maybe an elevated ROW is appropriate somewhere is treated to the same horrified reactions as suggesting a new six-lane arterial road might be - when we spend literal decades talking and mitigating and compromising over a legally-required extension of a trolley line at the same time as not one but several far more destructive roadworks projects get approved around the country - you might understand why I could become numb to cries of "but what about the neighborhood?! Won't you think of the community impact!?"

My understanding of the neighborhood concern about this project is that people are much more concerned about the social effects of the development than the physical ones. I haven't heard nearly as many complaints about noise or construction as I have heard about gentrification and the pricing out of longtime residents. In other words, I think the concern is more that the Green Line Extension will bring "neighborhood improvement" than "neighborhood destruction". It's certainly a frustrating argument from a planning perspective, and it seems really dumb to delay improvements out of fear of making a neighborhood more attractive, but there is no denying that if you've been renting in Somerville for 20 years near one of these future stations, you probably won't be able to afford to stay in your apartment in a couple years. And many Somerville townies who own their houses but don't want to move worry about the influx of T-riding yuppies and increased property taxes more than they value the prospect of a higher payout if/when they decide to sell.

Nobody is seriously talking about building more highways in the Boston area, so comparing public transit expansion to highway expansion seems a little disingenuous to me. That being said, precisely because public transit is so much more desirable than driving, I think that running a pair of tracks will actually have more of a social impact on its surrounding community than laying more asphalt. It will be a "positive" social impact, for sure, but it will be an impact on many people none-the-less.

 

[George_Apley]

Re: Green Line to Medford to start in 2011

NIMBYs aren't the major blocker of transit expansion. Money is.