Green Line Type 10 Procurement

Jahvon09

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They should install some kind of electronic device in the new trolleys that would stop the trains from crashing into each other. Or from getting too close to each other. Positive Train Control, such as the type that's used in the new Red & Orange Line trains. How stupid are they to let this just keep on happening?

This could've prevented a number of crashes, including the one that occured in May, '08 on the Riverside Line. But the MBTA has once said that it was too expensive! So they continue to let this happen, sacrificing the commuters' safety over trying to save money. Why is this train wreck allowed to continue?!!
Train Wreck!!.jpg
 
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notthemonthaugust

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They should install some kind of electronic device in the new trolleys that would stop the trains from crashing into each other. Or from getting too close to each other. Positive Train Control, such as the type that's used in the new Red & Orange Line trains. How stupid are they to let this keep on happening?

This could've prevented a number of crashes, including the one that occured in May, '08 on the Riverside Line. But the MBTA has once said that it was too expensive! So they continue to let this happen, sacrificing the commuters' safety over trying to save money. Why is this train wreck allowed to continue?!!View attachment 17795
I'm pretty sure that photo is of the DC Metro...?
 

Jahvon09

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It was just an example of them letting train crashes happen. but,,,,

Yes it is. June 22, 2009. This accident had occured because of a fault in the circuitry of the tracks controlling the speed of the trains & the closeness of them. The horrible & catastroffic crash is the result of the trasit agency's neglegence. Nine people, including the operator had perished.
 
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Jahvon09

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Actually, I was mainly talking about Positive Train Control, which is what the T needs to stop or cut down seriously, the seemingly unexplained accidents on the Green Line
 
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Brattle Loop

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Actually, I was mainly talking about Positive Train Control, with is what the T needs to stops the seemingly unexplained accidents on the Green Line
The accidents are not unexplained, and have never been unexplained. We've not yet had a full explanation of why the striking trolley was going too fast and did not stop in time, but since the operator is being fired and has been criminally charged, we can get an idea of who was at fault there.

The individual details vary, but the baseline explanation for the Green Line accidents has always been the same: there is not now, and has never been, any form of positive train control or automatic stop system on the line. They are currently working on developing such a system.

The only thing that is actually unexplained is whether the T has been dragging their feet to the point of only getting around to working on PTC on the Green Line lately, or if it's lingered this long because it's such a difficult problem to solve. Until relatively recently (within the past 7-10 years) the T itself did not even have live tracking (internally) of the Green Line vehicles, that's how antiquated the line's signal and control infrastructure is. And the age of it only made it harder to solve the PTC problem. It's not an easy solve, trying to graft PTC onto a line like this, especially because if they get it wrong they end up slashing the amount of trains that can run through the tunnels, crippling service on the line. (The Type 10s will help with this problem, because they're likely to be running at mildly longer headways than the current trains, but without the crowding problem that would otherwise occur if headways were lengthened because their massive size will better be able to swallow crowds.)
 

Jahvon09

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The accidents are not unexplained, and have never been unexplained. We've not yet had a full explanation of why the striking trolley was going too fast and did not stop in time, but since the operator is being fired and has been criminally charged, we can get an idea of who was at fault there.

The individual details vary, but the baseline explanation for the Green Line accidents has always been the same: there is not now, and has never been, any form of positive train control or automatic stop system on the line. They are currently working on developing such a system.

The only thing that is actually unexplained is whether the T has been dragging their feet to the point of only getting around to working on PTC on the Green Line lately, or if it's lingered this long because it's such a difficult problem to solve. Until relatively recently (within the past 7-10 years) the T itself did not even have live tracking (internally) of the Green Line vehicles, that's how antiquated the line's signal and control infrastructure is. And the age of it only made it harder to solve the PTC problem. It's not an easy solve, trying to graft PTC onto a line like this, especially because if they get it wrong they end up slashing the amount of trains that can run through the tunnels, crippling service on the line. (The Type 10s will help with this problem, because they're likely to be running at mildly longer headways than the current trains, but without the crowding problem that would otherwise occur if headways were lengthened because their massive size will better be able to swallow crowds.)
Yeah, well anytime there's a crash, the driver that caused it is usually dicsiplined for it. And that was one of the Type 7's that was rehabbed, I bet.
 

Brattle Loop

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Yeah, well anytime there's a crash, the driver that caused it is usually dicsiplined for it. And that was one of the Type 7's that was rehabbed, I bet.
I believe all the T7s in service have been rehabbed and there are no remaining operable unrehabbed T7s. One hopes the Type 10s can be ordered and delivered before the T7s are needing yet another overhaul, but one can never be entirely confident when it comes to the T...
 

Jahvon09

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I believe all the T7s in service have been rehabbed and there are no remaining operable unrehabbed T7s. One hopes the Type 10s can be ordered and delivered before the T7s are needing yet another overhaul, but one can never be entirely confident when it comes to the T...
I think that will be the 1st & only rehab that they'll get, since the T is seriously considering replacing them all together, mainly because none of them are ADA accessible, to which the Type 10's WILL have a low floor from front to back, which would mean even bigger windows & wider doors, also. :)
 
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Jahvon09

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I think I've read somewhere online that the T is almost close to deciding which co. to go with that will make the new Type 10's! I just can't wait to see how they'll look!!! Also, I wonder if they'll have a mockup of the new Type 10's on display at City Hall Plaza!! :)
 
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Hubman

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I don't know if this is the place to ask this, but what's the chance that the new GL cars could be incorporated into 3 or 4 car trains in the near future? I know that they stopped them few years back to due "reliability" issues- could the new trains solve those problems/
 

Brattle Loop

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I don't know if this is the place to ask this, but what's the chance that the new GL cars could be incorporated into 3 or 4 car trains in the near future? I know that they stopped them few years back to due "reliability" issues- could the new trains solve those problems/
New ones as in the as-yet-not-ordered Type 10s? Zero chance. The Type 10s are planned to be much larger than the existing cars, such that a single-car T10 would effectively replace the capacity of a current two-car train. A number of stations (mostly surface stops) would need modification to fit two-car trains of T10s, but that work would presumably happen over time. The max that most stops could fit is two car trains of the monster T10s, and modifying the subway stops to fit more than that would be extremely expensive, so two-car sets would probably be the most we'd ever see in service (though that's something like the capacity of a four-car train of current cars).
 

Jahvon09

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New ones as in the as-yet-not-ordered Type 10s? Zero chance. The Type 10s are planned to be much larger than the existing cars, such that a single-car T10 would effectively replace the capacity of a current two-car train. A number of stations (mostly surface stops) would need modification to fit two-car trains of T10s, but that work would presumably happen over time. The max that most stops could fit is two car trains of the monster T10s, and modifying the subway stops to fit more than that would be extremely expensive, so two-car sets would probably be the most we'd ever see in service (though that's something like the capacity of a four-car train of current cars).
Supposedly, as many as about 420 people in a car. That's a lot!! :unsure:
 

Brattle Loop

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Supposedly, as many as about 420 people in a car. That's a lot!! :unsure:
Well, it's about double what a Boeing could do at crush load, in a vehicle about double the size. (Man, the Type 10s will make for nice crowd swallowers at Kenmore after Sox games.)
 

Jahvon09

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Yeah, It'll probably look almost as long as a 777X! Boeing's new longest plane!! That's pretty long!!! :unsure::)
 

Brattle Loop

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Yeah, It'll probably look almost as long as a 777X! Boeing's new longest plane!! That's pretty long!!! :unsure::)
A two-car Type 10 train would be about as long as a 777-8 and about twenty or so feet shorter than a 777-9. (I'm not sure which is more impressive, how big that means even one Type 10 is, or that something the size of a 777X can fly.)
 

Jahvon09

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Put it THIS way; The Type 10 would be able to carry about 420 passengers (sitting & standing). Almost as many as the 777X which will carry about 10 or so more (sitting). :)
 
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Brattle Loop

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Here's another design that the MBTA may opt for! :)View attachment 22395
Looks like an old rendering of a Bombardier Flexity Freedom (in TTC colors?) or maybe a Flexity Outlook (though the Outlook's final nose design doesn't match). We won't be getting off-the-shelf Freedoms, they can't handle the Green Line's curves. Won't be getting off-the-shelf Outlooks either given they're the wrong gauge and don't have left-hand doors.

It does make me wonder, though, if Alstom's going to keep the acquired Flexity line along with its Citadis line. We could wind up with equipment from one of those lineages pretty easily.
 

F-Line to Dudley

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Won't be getting off-the-shelf Outlooks either given they're the wrong gauge and don't have left-hand doors.
The gauge difference isn't enough to change the make. After all the T evaluated the Outlooks' TTC predecessors, the CLRV, with just a swap of trucks. They opted not to purchase them, but if they had the Boston production batch would've been outfitted with left-handed doors as that was available factory-order. Curve radius is the main deciding factor as to whether a make is adaptable here.

It does make me wonder, though, if Alstom's going to keep the acquired Flexity line along with its Citadis line. We could wind up with equipment from one of those lineages pretty easily.
As part of the antitrust hullabaloo for getting the Bombardier merger approved, Alstom committed to keeping all of BBD's major product families. There's enough differention in specialties between the Flexity product roster and Citadis product roster and both have such huge incumbent installed bases that there aren't too many individual makes in the families going direct head-to-head in procurements...expecially when follow-on orders are factored.
 

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