Green Line Type 10 Procurement

[Brattle Loop]

The gauge difference isn't enough to change the make. After all the T evaluated the Outlooks' TTC predecessors, the CLRV, with just a swap of trucks. They opted not to purchase them, but if they had the Boston production batch would've been outfitted with left-handed doors as that was available factory-order. Curve radius is the main deciding factor as to whether a make is adaptable here.

Hmm, minor-modification variant seems like it'd be a good idea, at least if the Outlooks are any good (I'm not sufficiently versed in Toronto transit details to know.)

As part of the antitrust hullabaloo for getting the Bombardier merger approved, Alstom committed to keeping all of BBD's major product families. There's enough differention in specialties between the Flexity product roster and Citadis product roster and both have such huge incumbent installed bases that there aren't too many individual makes in the families going direct head-to-head in procurements...expecially when follow-on orders are factored.

That makes a lot of sense, thanks.

 

[kingofsheeba]

Here's another design that the MBTA may opt for! View attachment 22395

Whilst that would be rad, we all know that the T gonna T!

 

[Texasian]

After all the T evaluated the Outlooks' TTC predecessors, the CLRV, with just a swap of trucks.

Slightly off topic here, but why did the practice of evaluating new rolling stock by putting a set in service stop? Amtrak did a similar exercise before deciding on the v1 Acelas.

Is there some better understanding of requirements?More liability? Feels like the whole Type 8 debacle could have been avoided.

 

[Stlin]

Slightly off topic here, but why did the practice of evaluating new rolling stock by putting a set in service stop? Amtrak did a similar exercise before deciding on the v1 Acelas.

Is there some better understanding of requirements?More liability? Feels like the whole Type 8 debacle could have been avoided.

I would assume simply because nothing off the shelf since the PCC would go around lechmeres loop. The Types 7, 8, 9 and the Boeing LRV were all boutique designs around the need to go around that 42 ft radius. (On that note, with the type 10 procurement looking ever more imminent, any word on proposed / necessary mods to Park St and Brattle loops, the next 2 ruling curves?)

Besides, I'm fairly sure the X2000 & ICE leases were manufacturer sponsored tours, using lightly modded manufacturer owned test sets, in hopes of selling them to Amtrak. Besides - they spent a good chunk of their time being towed around the country to extol the virtues of HSR, to sell the country on the idea, not running the NEC. Of course, neither of them won the Acela contract, but it was mostly off the shelf equipment, and a year long continental tour. These days, I'm not sure if any manufacturer has sets just lying around that they're willing to ship to just so a prospective buyers can run it around their system for a few weeks. That said, I'm fairly sure if the MBTA were to have down selected to them for CR electrification, someone could convince Bombardier/NJT and Stadler/ CalTrain to send a unit or 2 up here to do a similar trials and marketing exercise. Just not sure that's in the cards for a type 10.

 

[Jahvon09]

Looks like an old rendering of a Bombardier Flexity Freedom (in TTC colors?) or maybe a Flexity Outlook (though the Outlook's final nose design doesn't match). We won't be getting off-the-shelf Freedoms, they can't handle the Green Line's curves. Won't be getting off-the-shelf Outlooks either given they're the wrong gauge and don't have left-hand doors.

It does make me wonder, though, if Alstom's going to keep the acquired Flexity line along with its Citadis line. We could wind up with equipment from one of those lineages pretty easily.

If you mean THIS one, there ARE some slight differences between the two units, as you might be able to tell. Maybe, one of them is of a new & improved design.

 

[Brattle Loop]

If you mean THIS one, there ARE some slight differences between the two units, as you might be able to tell. Maybe, one of them is a new & improved design.

That's a Flexity Outlook, which is presumably compatible with Green Line curves given that Toronto's streetcar system has curves worse than anything on the GL; the previous picture was a rendering of the Flexity Freedom (same family, also built for Toronto, no, that's not confusing at all), which can't handle GL curves without modification. If we end up getting something Bombardier-derived, it'd quite possibly be based on the Outlook (with some left-hand doors added, of course).

 

[Jahvon09]

That's a Flexity Outlook, which is presumably compatible with Green Line curves given that Toronto's streetcar system has curves worse than anything on the GL; the previous picture was a rendering of the Flexity Freedom (same family, also built for Toronto, no, that's not confusing at all), which can't handle GL curves without modification. If we end up getting something Bombardier-derived, it'd quite possibly be based on the Outlook (with some left-hand doors added, of course).

I suspected that they look almost like carbon copies of each other, & yes, no need of getting these if they'll act like the Bredas around curves. Just about ALL of the mbta's lines have had derailments with new & old vehicles except maybe the Blue Line.

But the MBTA has made mistakes before, in favor of trying to save dough by accepting the lowest bids for stuff . Seems that just about every new vehicle they get tends to suffer from derailments!

 

[Brattle Loop]

I suspected that they look almost like carbon copies of each other, & yes, no need of getting these if they'll act like the Bredas on curves. Just about ALL of the mbta's lines have had derailments with new & old vehicles except maybe the Blue Line.

They're similar-looking, though the non-TTC Flexity Freedoms wound up painted blue instead of that rather attractive shade of red. When I said the Freedoms can't handle the curves, that wasn't specifically about derailments, simply noting that their minimum curve radius is far larger than some of the Green Line's curves (and perilously close to the Boylston loop's curve at that). I don't know what that means in practice, whether they'd derail or simply split their articulation in half, or something else. Either way, not even the MBTA is incompetent enough to buy equipment that can't fit the ruling curves. (They may, however, be foolish enough to buy something that has to be extensively modified to fit, with all the teething problems that come with that. You'd have thought the Boeings and Bredas would have taught them the folly of being the transit world's willing beta-tester.)

 

[Jahvon09]

They're similar-looking, though the non-TTC Flexity Freedoms wound up painted blue instead of that rather attractive shade of red. When I said the Freedoms can't handle the curves, that wasn't specifically about derailments, simply noting that their minimum curve radius is far larger than some of the Green Line's curves (and perilously close to the Boylston loop's curve at that). I don't know what that means in practice, whether they'd derail or simply split their articulation in half, or something else. Either way, not even the MBTA is incompetent enough to buy equipment that can't fit the ruling curves. (They may, however, be foolish enough to buy something that has to be extensively modified to fit, with all the teething problems that come with that. You'd have thought the Boeings and Bredas would have taught them the folly of being the transit world's willing beta-tester.)

Hopefully, they've learned from the errors of their ways. Constant problems with equipment only make delays in getting things to work puts things on the back burner more & more, frustrating consumers to no end!!

 

[Stlin]

From Todays MBTA meeting: it looks like that the MBTA has reached a decision on its type 10 procurement, with technical evaluations complete and a award scheduled for this summer (probably in the new fiscal year.)

Yard upgrades and core station platform extensions to 225' is in the picture as part of this program, and evidentially the T is expecting a minimum 10% increase in core capacity as part of FTA funding eligibility.

 

[Jahvon09]

Can't wait to see what they'll choose as the final design!!

 

[bakgwailo]

From Todays MBTA meeting: it looks like that the MBTA has reached a decision on its type 10 procurement, with technical evaluations complete and a award scheduled for this summer (probably in the new fiscal year.)

Yard upgrades and core station platform extensions to 225' is in the picture as part of this program, and evidentially the T is expecting a minimum 10% increase in core capacity as part of FTA funding eligibility.
View attachment 23847

Actually pretty cool we might see something in 4 years. Plus looks like it will line up for the High Speed Line's rebuild to finally wrap up to then immediately start getting hand me down Type-9s

 

[Jahvon09]

If you mean THIS one, there ARE some slight differences between the two units, as you might be able to tell. Maybe, one of them is a new & improved design.
View attachment 22535

Here's a vid of these new trolleys during testing! Hopefully, the T will choose THESE!!!

 

[kingofsheeba]

Here’s a quick recap of how awesome the Type 10’s were last week. Boy howdy are they fun.

 

[Teban54]

Here’s a quick recap of how awesome the Type 10’s were last week. Boy howdy are they fun. View attachment 24961View attachment 24962View attachment 24963View attachment 24964

That's a Type 9, not Type 10.

 

[Jahvon09]

I rode on one a few times. Nice, but it's those stairs that they are hoping to eliminate once & for all! And yes, they ARE Type 9's.

 

[The EGE]

Tomorrow's board meeting has "Type 10 Supercar Update: Discussion and Possible Action" on the agenda. Could this be the contract award?

Board Meeting | MBTA Board of Directors (Virtual) | Events | MBTA

Official website of the MBTA -- schedules, maps, and fare information for Greater Boston's public transportation system, including subway, commuter rail, bus routes, and boat lines.

www.mbta.com

 

[Stlin]

Hot off the wire: the Type 10 award did in fact happen today. However, unlike speculation, neither Siemens or Alstom/Bombardier won it with a modded OTS option. Instead CAF, the builders of the Type 9 will build 102 bespoke cars for $810.9 million, funded largely through the new MassTrac bill. Pilot vehicles to be delivered by 2026, production by 2027.

I will say that is a very sexy design as rendered - but given what the initial type 9 render turned into, I will withhold judgement until the sheet metal exists.

Edited to cleanup screenshots.

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

I don't see any bike racks in those floor plans. That should be a demanded feature, especially since they're easy to accommodate with combo wheelchair/bike spaces in the car. Most LRV's being ordered today now have them, so I hope the public gets some input into this before specs are finalized.


BTW...these are likely to look like the CAF Urbos 3 cars used in Budapest. Over there they have 9-section 'stretched' trains. We're only getting 7 sections. So CAF definitely knows how to build for what the T is asking.

 

[RandomWalk]

Maybe the bike racks were in the two deleted sections…