Green Line Type 10 Procurement

[Jahvon09]

The platforms on the B & C Lines need upgrading & strengthening anyway. They are falling apart & crumbling!!

 

[Shepard]

The 8's all need new lightbulbs - they're so dim compared to the returning 7's. It actually makes the 7's more appealing.

 

[Jahvon09]

That is because the 7's were outfitted with LED lights, which make them so cheerfully brighter. And you're right! The 8's interiors ARE becoming so dimly lit!!

Nothing like the interiors of the new Red & Orange Line Mockups!! Those are also cheerfully bright, warm & cozy!!

 

[Jahvon09]

They are planning to eventually replace the whole fleet of Green Line trolleys anyway. Just like what they are doing with the Red & Orange Line fleets.

Sometime in the future, we will have the only transit agency in the country that will have THE YOUNGEST NEW rapid transit vehicles on all subway lines!!

 

[whittle]

They are planning to eventually replace the whole fleet of Green Line trolleys anyway. Just like what they are doing with the Red & Orange Line fleets.

Sometime in the future, we will have the only transit agency in the country that will have NEW rapid transit vehicles on all subway lines!!

By the time all the Type 10s will be delivered, the Blue Line cars will be up to 23 years old.

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

By the time all the Type 10s will be delivered, the Blue Line cars will be up to 23 years old.

Not that old...the 0700's were delivered 2007-2009, meaning some of them haven't hit a decade yet. The Type 10's should not take an enormous design gestation period if they're going to be modified off-shelf instead of an entirely unique-to-Boston design, so it's hard to see back-end of the deliveries stretching much beyond 2025. That timetable is dicey enough for expecting fast-fading Breda reliability to hold up, so they're not in a mood to waste time with that procurement. These fresh-rebuilt Type 7's are going to be the only thing keeping the system from completely melting down forever in the meantime.


As for Blue fleets...they're kicking off "BLT" anyway with the Blue infrastructure + climate change resiliency study underway now. Initiatives related to flood protection for stations and ROW include new signal system (retiring the hardware- and electricity- intensive mechanical trip system for solid-state tech), installing third rail from Logan to Wonderland and ripping out the overhead wire (fortifying vulnerability to wind events), and performance optimization off the new infrastructure.

Siemens Mobility, for all its success in light rail and passenger RR's, has a very meager track record in heavy/metro rail, and their indifference to that market showed during the 0700 design-build process. Very unlikely those cars will be rebuilt, as it's too much easier and cheaper to order up 100+ more CRRC Orange/Red carbon copies shoved into Blue Line dimensions and live off the same parts stock rather than try to keep maintaining the only unlike HRT fleet left. Could even use that opportunity to order up a few Orange supplementals while they're at it.

One thing they might end up looking at closely is how a mandate to proceed on Red-Blue could affect timing of the "0800" car order. The Charles extension would retire Bowdoin Loop and blast straight through the wall framing the loop, eliminating the #1 dimensional constraint on the line forcing use of such tiny (48.5 ft. / 35 seat) cars that seat less each than a 40-footer bus. It's not enough by its lonesome for the R-B build and retirement of the loop to allow for bufffing Blue out to running Orange Line (65 ft. / ~48 seat) dimension cars instead; "BLT" would have to study curve easing feasibility at State St. curve to whack the last substandard dimensional constraint. But at the very least, the next order could go for healthy bit bigger dimensions and seating capacity than today if R-B gets fast-tracked. And on the slim chances they actually do hit paydirt on mods to State for "off-shelfing" Blue to real Orange dimensions--and no longer need to deal with pantographs or signaling differences--they could buy a kajillion more CRRC cars for a song and slovenly pad the order knowing that flatbed trucks traveling between Wellington and Orient Heights and an ornamental color change in the shop are the only prerequisites for trading assignments or following which line the most future growth is headed.

So there's serious per-car capacity gains to be quantified, and the issue of timing re: whether Red-Blue is the priority Pollack says it is, behind the decision on when is the time to send the Siemens cars to a slightly early retirement. I expect "BLT" could morph into something much bigger, more comprehensive, and more prominently branded for publicity than just the sea level rise resiliency study that's going on quietly right now.

 

[whittle]

Not that old...the 0700's were delivered 2007-2009, meaning some of them haven't hit a decade yet. The Type 10's should not take an enormous design gestation period if they're going to be modified off-shelf instead of an entirely unique-to-Boston design, so it's hard to see back-end of the deliveries stretching much beyond 2025. That timetable is dicey enough for expecting fast-fading Breda reliability to hold up, so they're not in a mood to waste time with that procurement. These fresh-rebuilt Type 7's are going to be the only thing keeping the system from completely melting down forever in the meantime.

I'm going off this slide from last year's Type 10 presentation, which doesn't envision Type 10 deliveries as starting until 2024/5.

 

[ceo]

And on the slim chances they actually do hit paydirt on mods to State for "off-shelfing" Blue to real Orange dimensions--and no longer need to deal with pantographs or signaling differences--they could buy a kajillion more CRRC cars for a song and slovenly pad the order knowing that flatbed trucks traveling between Wellington and Orient Heights and an ornamental color change in the shop are the only prerequisites for trading assignments or following which line the most future growth is headed.

Don't forget the Blue Line has a lower platform height, because of the harbor tunnel. So a little more complicated than a paint job.

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

Don't forget the Blue Line has a lower platform height, because of the harbor tunnel. So a little more complicated than a paint job.

Not really. Floor height is controlled by the car hydraulics so there's a vibration-dampening cushion above the trucks. It's adjustable. When the T was entertaining rebuilding some of the Blue Line 0600's to send to Orange as supplementals that could trainline with the 01200's, ballast adjustment would've raised the floors to Orange platform level without outside mods.

 

[Jahvon09]

Sorry, but that is just like putting money into a 15-y-o-car that sat for eons inactive to update it to like new standards, especially when just about everything mechanical has to be fixed or replaced on it. A money pit!!

 

[stick n move]

So these renders floating around were the type 10’s?

These along with the new red/orange cars will be badass

They remind me a little bit of these in Melbourne

Something like this riding around Boston is going to make the city look like its finally moved into the present/21st century/future. The city will literally look better with these riding along the streets.

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

So these renders floating around were the type 10’s?

No. Those are obsolete early Type 9 renders.


There is no Type 10 render, because the specs haven't been released and it's supposed to be a Boston-derived modification of any number of off-shelf trolley designs in wide use around the world...rather than a homegrown design fetching build-to-suit vendor.

 

[stick n move]

Gotcha. Either way Im sure theyll be somewhat close and just having modern trolleys will be awesome and literally make the city look newer.

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

Gotcha. Either way Im sure theyll be somewhat close and just having modern trolleys will be awesome and literally make the city look newer.

These are basically the market leaders a Type 10 would look like (if we're even going by "Type" designations anymore, since those have historically designated Boston-only designs). Note that nearly all of the major lineups today have "LRV" (wider body) and "streetcar" (narrower body) configurations and modular lengths by plugging in truck sections. Things like left-handed doors are an option upon order (not all systems have lefty platforms), but are structurally provisioned for in each model. I isolated it to the low-floor versions, but high-floor is still a hot market as a lot of newer systems are opting for high-level platforms (even on some street-running lines), and so most of these 'family' lineups also come in either high-floor versions or have a differing parallel high-floor make that offers all the same modular customization options as the low-floors.

Punch in these vehicle names or light rail cities into Wikipedia to get more info or exterior/interior screenshots, and Google around the manufacturer websites as they usually have very detailed PDF brochures with technical specs and interior schematics.

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Siemens S70 (a.k.a. "Avanto") -- Houston, San Diego, Charlotte, Portland, Norfolk, Salt Lake City, Minneapolis-St.Paul, Atlanta, Seattle, Phoenix-Tempe-Mesa, Orange County. Most popular North American model by far.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...llage,_San_Diego,_CA,_USA_-_panoramio_(6).jpg

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Alstom Citadis Spirit (North American-import version of popular international Citadis Dualis) -- Toronto, Ottawa. Unclear what lineup's future is now that Siemens is acquiring Alstom (sell off lineup to other company???).

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Bombardier Flexity Freedom (North American-import version of internationally popular Flexity Swift) -- Toronto, Waterloo

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Bombardier Flexity Swift (main international model, supplanted by very similar Flexity Freedom for North American marketing but still available for purchase) -- Minneapolis, many int'l customers

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CAF Urbos LRV (North American-import version of popular Urbos 3) -- Kansas City, Cincinnati, Houston

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Kinki-Sharyo (various) -- Phoenix. Kinki doesn't have a 'family' lineup per se, but most of the technological advancements from the last decade's worth of build-to-suit orders have been rolled up into the modular LFX-3000 "AmeriTram", which is most similar to the slightly earlier Phoenix fleet. AmeriTram's also being marketed with a battery-hybrid option for limited off-wire revenue service (mainly intended for new systems that have to bridge sections where overhead wire is impossible...or intend to incrementally expand service faster than they can find funding for extending the overhead, then play catch-up when they can).

 

[Jahvon09]

Nice pics! Hopefully, one of them will be chosen.

 

[Arlington]

2 doors near each other are really sweet for roll-on roll-off wheelchair and bike users.

 

[Jahvon09]

And they are going to have a complete low-floor layout from end to end!

 

[Equilibria]

At the FMCB today:

- 7 prime vendors responded to the RFI in April.
- Technical specification is expected by the end of 2019.

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

At the FMCB today:

- 7 prime vendors responded to the RFI in April.
- Technical specification is expected by the end of 2019.

GLT slides:

https://cdn.mbta.com/sites/default/...19-05-13-fmcb-G-green-line-transformation.pdf


Of note to riders. . .

• Solar-powered E-Ink countdown signs & service announcements are coming to B/C/E surface stops between Sept. 2019-April 2020 on a pilot program.

• Green Line GPS is getting an ongoing major system upgrade to improve tracking precision. Will make all public tracking data on the web + the glitchy countdown clocks on the D much more accurate.

 

[datadyne007]

No. Those are obsolete early Type 9 renders.


There is no Type 10 render, because the specs haven't been released and it's supposed to be a Boston-derived modification of any number of off-shelf trolley designs in wide use around the world...rather than a homegrown design fetching build-to-suit vendor.

Gotcha. Either way Im sure theyll be somewhat close and just having modern trolleys will be awesome and literally make the city look newer.

There actually are Type 10 concept renders:

Visually, they appear to be just chopped up Type 9s for the purpose of showing the flexible segments like products on the market for that presentation. It gives you an idea of the length and number of segments they are thinking will work best in Boston though.