Logan Airport Flights and Airlines Discussion

[stellarfun]

The proposed project includes construction of post security concourses between Terminal C (at Pier B) and Terminal E, and between Terminal C from Pier C to Pier D, including improvements to Terminal C at hold rooms, concessions, toilets and concourse. This post-security connectivity will allow customers to have seamless access to all Terminal C gates; therefore, any gate changes or connecting passengers can move behind security to all 24 gates. This project will also allow certain pre-cleared international arriving passengers to connect to departures from Terminal C and allow all arriving passengers to connect to international departures at Terminal E. The project will incorporate sustainable design elements. The work includes general site and interior preparation, foundations, utility relocations, construction phasing and sequencing, walkway structures, architecture, pedestrian circulation/wayfinding, means of egress, signage/graphics, stairs, elevators, escalators, ADA and code compliance, HVAC, plumbing, fire protection, electrical, lighting, power, security, and other systems and facilities required by existing codes and regulations and necessary to achieve a complete functional facility. Construction of the new work will also impact existing facilities and also existing ramp activity and it is essential that the work be designed and constructed in such a manner that all required operations and ramp activity will be maintained with no permanent obstructions to current and future ramp activity.

Construction Manager at Risk, advertised October 2013. Not yet awarded.
Estimated cost $40 million.

If one looks at the plan for the connection between C & E, that can be done in a few months. From the EA,

The final (and preferred) concept for the Terminal C-E Connector, Alternative C (shown in Figure 3.7) was developed as a simplified solution that further reduces the amount of new building construction while reorganizing circulation post-security and enhances accessibility to the Arrivals Level baggage claim. Alternative C includes approximately 18,900 square feet of interior renovation and only 3,500 square feet of new building construction.

http://www.massport.com/media/2917/2012_EA_Terminal_B_CE_Complete.pdf

Estimated cost $5-6 million. Probably can and ought to be done when JetBlue does its mods to eliminate United's space in terminal C. The larger cost seems to be the connector between the two piers of C.

 

[stellarfun]

From the MassPort EA, the Terminal B connector is mostly about providing space for United/Continental, and reconfiguring gates 22-29, which were on the AA side of B, for this purpose. These gates need to be repositioned to handle larger aircraft than what AA was using, and if I read the EA correctly, one of the repositioned gates is sized to handle a 787.

So if Stephanies is opening in April, that would seem to be the month when United will move into Terminal B.

 

[whighlander]

Construction Manager at Risk, advertised October 2013. Not yet awarded.
Estimated cost $40 million.

If one looks at the plan for the connection between C & E, that can be done in a few months. From the EA,


http://www.massport.com/media/2917/2012_EA_Terminal_B_CE_Complete.pdf

Estimated cost $5-6 million. Probably can and ought to be done when JetBlue does its mods to eliminate United's space in terminal C. The larger cost seems to be the connector between the two piers of C.

Stel -- that $5M is substantially at odds with the much more recent powerpoint presented to Masport's Tenants who were told it would cost

Cost :
– PFC Debt Funded Capital Costs $ 19,215,000
– PFC Funded Financing & Interest $ 5,380,200
– Total PFC Funded Costs: $ 24,595,200

– MPA Bonds: $ 25,785,000
– Total Project Cost: $ 50,380,200

although the PFC document total includes the cost associated with the connector between the common post security loby in C with the otherwise isolated C-40 gates

I suspect that when the basic Option C [which was selected as part of the EIR which you quote from] was explored in detail some of the straightforward internal redo in C and E turned out to be more complex than anticipated

 

[stellarfun]

whjighlander, there are two pieces to C. The C-E Connection and the connection between the two piers of C.

The proposed project includes construction of post security concourses between Terminal C (at Pier B) and Terminal E, and between Terminal C from Pier C to Pier D, including improvements to Terminal C at hold rooms, concessions, toilets and concourse. This post-security connectivity will allow customers to have seamless access to all Terminal C gates; therefore, any gate changes or connecting passengers can move behind security to all 24 gates.

Bolding mine.

A reason for why the connectors at C might take longer than the B connector, is that American had given up the gates at 22-29 so construction could proceed without much disruption of airline operations. Not so for C.

Quoting again from the advertisement for C.

Construction of the new work will also impact existing facilities and also existing ramp activity and it is essential that the work be designed and constructed in such a manner that all required operations and ramp activity will be maintained with no permanent obstructions to current and future ramp activity.

The plans for the C to E connector show it principally affecting concession space at the north end of the terminal.

The final (and preferred) concept for the Terminal C-E Connector, Alternative C (shown in Figure 3.7) was developed as a simplified solution that further reduces the amount of new building construction while reorganizing circulation post-security and enhances accessibility to the Arrivals Level baggage claim.

Alternative C includes approximately 18,900 square feet of interior renovation and only 3,500 square feet of new building construction. The new circulation route connects Terminal E to Terminal C, running along the inside of the Terminal C facade and tying into Terminal C, Pier B immediately across from the new security checkpoint concessions and circulation corridor.

The new post-security connector will run primarily along the perimeter of the existing Terminals C and E, and is mostly confined within the existing Terminal C Departures Level building envelope. A connecting portion between the two terminals will provide the major link at the existing Terminal E lower roof level. The Terminal C-E Connector will provide post-security public circulation areas, reconfigured office space within both terminals, and reconfigured concessions within Terminal C.
....
Alternative C has a chief advantage over the other alternatives: it makes direct, efficient connections between Terminals C and E by using existing enclosed space efficiently thereby eliminating some construction complexity. Also, it reduces new construction area, and it consolidates vertical circulation at this end of Terminal C. Alternative C is identified as the Proposed Action.

The connector basically runs from near gate C-11 to near gate 1-E of the E terminal, 1-E would be the (south)easternmost gate of old terminal D. The connection runs at only one level, the departures level. (The B connector is two levels, as it includes arrivals.)

My guess is that Jet Blue and Massport can get the C-E connector finished before the cross-pier connector within C is done.

 

[LH421]

Anyone else wondering when we will see B6 A321s (non-Mint configuration)? One of the linked articles indicates they may add Mint/lie flat seats to some BOS-West Coast markets.

 

[adamh8297]

My guess is that Jet Blue and Massport can get the C-E connector finished before the cross-pier connector within C is done.

Hopefully that is the case with the new international flights and interline agreements/partnerships growing each week.

One of the articles quoted last week mentioned 60 pax per day would connect with JetBlue and its partners but I could see it being higher.

Also - there are reports that Dubai is planning pre-clearance with US Customs and Border Patrol: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-...dubai-tempting-travelers-drained-by-wait.html

Could the Emirates 77L fit in a Terminal C gate?

 

[mass88]

Anyone else wondering when we will see B6 A321s (non-Mint configuration)? One of the linked articles indicates they may add Mint/lie flat seats to some BOS-West Coast markets.

I could see them running them on the Boston-San Francisco route to compete with United for some premium passengers.

 

[Arlington]

Hopefully that is the case with the new international flights and interline agreements/partnerships growing each week.

One of the articles quoted last week mentioned 60 pax per day would connect with JetBlue and its partners but I could see it being higher.

Also - there are reports that Dubai is planning pre-clearance with US Customs and Border Patrol: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-...dubai-tempting-travelers-drained-by-wait.html

Could the Emirates 77L fit in a Terminal C gate?

That's big news (the pre-clearance). Good for security, tough on JFK, probably a net win for JetBlue.

 

[adamh8297]

In the not too distant future you'll see JetBlue A321s flying Boston-San Juan, Santo Domingo, Orlando and Fort Lauderdale but Mint isn't the cards. Boston-San Francisco is one of United's most lucrative domestic routes. They'd murder JetBlue if they made a pass at their premium clientele.



Interlining is so 1990s. Everyone's doing it, even direct competitors. They need more codeshare agreements with generous mile/point-earning capabilities to sustain those numbers.



With the connector there's no need for them to be in Terminal C. The vast majority of their passengers will be originating(or terminating) in Boston anyways. Besides, they'll require lounge space for their first and business passengers, who will almost certainly not be connecting in on JetBlue. As I've said before, most international carriers at Logan don't need JetBlue as much as JetBlue would like to believe.

I think JetBlue has to try Mint from BOS if they want to court the BOS-based business passenger. However, there is already another airline with premium service on the route (Virgin America) which could either help (UA may not throw a huge hissy-fit since they are used to it) or hurt (more competition).

I see your point on interlines for frequent fliers but put yourself in the shoes of the average traveler who knows little on how the industry works and wants to take a once in a lifetime trip and just needs to get from point A to point B and back again. It is a smart move by JetBlue to advertise these interlines regardless of mileage/status earning potential.

Direct competitors also do not release their lowest fares while interlining. Play around with RDU-BOS-IST/DXB on ITA software and you will see that DL only allows interlines if you are putting someone in F or full Y.

I do agree with you that the carriers serve Boston because of New England and not because of JetBlue.

 

[mass88]

The sheer amount of demand on Boston-San Francisco has always amazed me a little bit. I've flown the route well over a dozen times and every time my flight has been completely full, or filled at better than 90% and the fares I've paid have always been pretty high (north of $550 r/t).

 

[tocoto]

One of the articles quoted last week mentioned 60 pax per day would connect with JetBlue.


I am surprised they expect only 60 passengers a day to transfer between international carriers and jet blue. At that level, the new flights and upgrades to the C and E terminals hardly seem worth the effort or expense on the parts of the airlines or MASSPORT. IMHO it will be a lot more.

 

[Arlington]

Anybody here have any guesses where JetBlue will use its DCA slots?

And where Virgin America intends to fly with their LGA slots (I think that they bought them and haven't done anything with them is the surest sign that they are not in control of their strategy)

And who gets the last 5 DCA slots (from AA divestiture?)

 

[stellarfun]

FWIW,

JetBlue did not disclose the city or cities it plans to reach with the additional slot pairs. The airline currently offers 18 departures a day to Boston, Fort Lauderdale, Orlando, Tampa and San Juan, Puerto Rico, from the Washington airport.

“The airline plans to introduce nonstop service to cities it does not currently serve from DCA, expanding the benefits of its award-winning service to more communities, as well as add more flights on some existing routes,” JetBlue said in its announcement.

Rob Land, JetBlue’s senior vice president of government affairs and associate general counsel, said the carrier “has already had a major impact at Reagan National in just a few short years with its everyday low fares, such as in the key business market to Boston, where since our entry in 2010, average fares have been reduced 31 percent and traffic has nearly doubled, soaring 93 percent.”

http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/...s-at-washington-reagan-national-airport.html/

However, JetBlue only won 24 slots, so Boston frequencies unlikely to change much.

 

[whighlander]

In the not too distant future you'll see JetBlue A321s flying Boston-San Juan, Santo Domingo, Orlando and Fort Lauderdale but Mint isn't the cards. Boston-San Francisco is one of United's most lucrative domestic routes. They'd murder JetBlue if they made a pass at their premium clientele.



Interlining is so 1990s. Everyone's doing it, even direct competitors. They need more codeshare agreements with generous mile/point-earning capabilities to sustain those numbers.



With the connector there's no need for them to be in Terminal C. The vast majority of their passengers will be originating(or terminating) in Boston anyways. Besides, they'll require lounge space for their first and business passengers, who will almost certainly not be connecting in on JetBlue. As I've said before, most international carriers at Logan don't need JetBlue as much as JetBlue would like to believe.

Kmp I think that you are confusing some of what has been done at C [tieing the two original piers together to produce a consolidated checkpoint] to what will be done as part of the "C-E Connector Project"



Not to belabor the point -- but the EIR was filed at a time 2012 when only the outline of the project had been decided upon -- the PFC presentation is from early this year

There is still some fine tuning that will be done before a construction contract is let to actually start work.

The key is that most of the work is internal with only the equivalent of a suburban single family home in new footprint aka outside the existing building envelope

When you look at the floor plans and such its not completely obvious where all the 3,500 sq ft is located

 

[Oakley]

The sheer amount of demand on Boston-San Francisco has always amazed me a little bit. I've flown the route well over a dozen times and every time my flight has been completely full, or filled at better than 90% and the fares I've paid have always been pretty high (north of $550 r/t).

I'm not at all. Technology is booming in both markets (with the west coast firms opening big offices in Boston/Cambridge), along with the biotech/life sciences sector, education, and tourism sectors.

 

[whighlander]

whjighlander, there are two pieces to C. The C-E Connection and the connection between the two piers of C.

Bolding mine.

A reason for why the connectors at C might take longer than the B connector, is that American had given up the gates at 22-29 so construction could proceed without much disruption of airline operations. Not so for C.

Quoting again from the advertisement for C.


The plans for the C to E connector show it principally affecting concession space at the north end of the terminal.



The connector basically runs from near gate C-11 to near gate 1-E of the E terminal, 1-E would be the (south)easternmost gate of old terminal D. The connection runs at only one level, the departures level. (The B connector is two levels, as it includes arrivals.)

My guess is that Jet Blue and Massport can get the C-E connector finished before the cross-pier connector within C is done.

Stel -- The connection within C from the two major piers is done

The only within C connection is the 3 Gate 40's which are next to the existing connection between B and C

Here's the quote from the 'Result of Bids" site on doing business with Massport

Terminal C Connectors
Contract: L1255-C2
Location: Logan Airport
Documents:
L1255-C2Logan Term C Connectors Information (9144.9k) updated Friday, January 31, 2014
Opportunity Type Construction Manager at Risk
Advertised Date 10/24/2013

Pre-Bid Conference
11/13/2013
10:00AM

Scope of Work The proposed project includes construction of post security concourses between Terminal C (at Pier B) and Terminal E, and between Terminal C from Pier C to Pier D, including improvements to Terminal C at hold rooms, concessions, toilets and concourse. This post-security connectivity will allow customers to have seamless access to all Terminal C gates; therefore, any gate changes or connecting passengers can move behind security to all 24 gates. This project will also allow certain pre-cleared international arriving passengers to connect to departures from Terminal C and allow all arriving passengers to connect to international departures at Terminal E. The project will incorporate sustainable design elements. The work includes general site and interior preparation, foundations, utility relocations, construction phasing and sequencing, walkway structures, architecture, pedestrian circulation/wayfinding, means of egress, signage/graphics, stairs, elevators, escalators, ADA and code compliance, HVAC, plumbing, fire protection, electrical, lighting, power, security, and other systems and facilities required by existing codes and regulations and necessary to achieve a complete functional facility. Construction of the new work will also impact existing facilities and also existing ramp activity and it is essential that the work be designed and constructed in such a manner that all required operations and ramp activity will be maintained with no permanent obstructions to current and future ramp activity.
Contact
CPBidQuestions@massport.com

If you want all the details supplied to the companies at the pre-bid confernce check out the following pdf

http://www.massport.com/capitalprog...255-C2Logan Term C Connectors Information.pdf

By the way the work is actually scheduled to start in July after United Moves out to Terminal B

 

[LH421]

I'm not following-I see this is being called a connector, but since summer 2011 it has been possible to walk between all gates in Terminal C (except for a small handful-former FL gates now used by B6). You just have to walk past the consolidated security checkpoint.

 

[adamh8297]

For the numbers folks on here: DOT released their data last week for Q3 2013.
http://www.dot.gov/policy/aviation-policy/domestic-airline-fares-consumer-report

Boston-Philly showed some dramatic effects from jetBlue's entrance on the route.

47.7% increase in Origin/Destination traffic.
40.9% decrease in average fare.

jetBlue grabbed 20.7% of traffic with the incumbent US Airways 78.2%

Using this database search, http://www.aviationdb.com/Aviation/F4SDetailQuery.shtm, I was able to get the following for July 2013:

jetBlue had 74.5% seats filled and US Airways was in the high 80's (estimated since the regional carriers are listed.

That database has a lot of information that can be easily extracted and goes back as far as 1990. You can search for such data as how Emirates did (load wise) when they started Seattle or search for how British Airways loads were like in 1999 from Boston.

 

[Arlington]

For the numbers folks on here: DOT released their data last week for Q3 2013.
http://www.dot.gov/policy/aviation-policy/domestic-airline-fares-consumer-report

Boston-Philly showed some dramatic effects from jetBlue's entrance on the route.

47.7% increase in Origin/Destination traffic.
40.9% decrease in average fare.

jetBlue grabbed 20.7% of traffic with the incumbent US Airways 78.2%

Using this database search, http://www.aviationdb.com/Aviation/F4SDetailQuery.shtm, I was able to get the following for July 2013:

jetBlue had 74.5% seats filled and US Airways was in the high 80's (estimated since the regional carriers are listed.

Also, note that Amtrak lost half of its BOS-PHL market to the airlines.
http://www.amtrak.com/ccurl/931/771/Amtrak-Monthly-Performance-Report-September-2013.pdf (pages A.3.1 an A-3.2).

Acela and Northeast Regionals had picked up a lot of the slack in the period between Southwest's BOS-PHL exit and JetBlue's BOS-PHL entry. So the interesting thing in BOS-PHL is that lower airfares don't so much "stimulate" traffic as they do "steal modal share". Acela was high (in the US-only era), low (in the WN+US era), high (in the interregnum) and halved again (since B6's entry).

 

[whighlander]

Also, note that Amtrak lost half of its BOS-PHL market to the airlines.
http://www.amtrak.com/ccurl/931/771/Amtrak-Monthly-Performance-Report-September-2013.pdf (pages A.3.1 an A-3.2).

Acela and Northeast Regionals had picked up a lot of the slack in the period between Southwest's BOS-PHL exit and JetBlue's BOS-PHL entry. So the interesting thing in BOS-PHL is that lower airfares don't so much "stimulate" traffic as they do "steal modal share". Acela was high (in the US-only era), low (in the WN+US era), high (in the interregnum) and halved again (since B6's entry).

Arlington --not at all surprising:
1) much of BOS - Philly is not center city to center city as is the case in BOS to NYC
2) again as opposed to BOS-NYC where Acela is just on the cusp-time-wise -- there is just too much of a time differential between flying and taking the train