Logan Airport Flights and Airlines Discussion

[whighlander]

I can't believe I'm even wasting my time conversing with you but in 1913, trains and ships were the only options one had for traveling any sort of distance so how is this even remotely germane to Logan hitting 36m passengers?

KMP -- Tell us something we don't know Captn Obviously Redundant

Yes of course the big difference is that today the vast majority of people travel by passenger car for destinations within two or so hours

The purpose of the post was just to put the current air travel numbers in some sort of historic context as far as the major group transportation facilities are concerned.

For instance we know that the South Station of 1913 was dramatically larger than what exists today, or is even is environed in the SS upgrade plans.

 

[mass88]

Yes


I want to say that I was wrong that AA was going down to 12, they are going down to 18. My bad!


Sources: https://www.massport.com/capitalpro...-C1/L1375-C1 CM at Risk Supplemental Info.pdf

Helpful press release: https://www.massport.com/news-room/...plans-to-consolidate-american-airlines-gates/

Current AA gates: https://www.aa.com/i18n/travelInformation/destinationInformation/bos-airport.jsp (4-19, 30-36)

This is going to be a great project and really give AA a nice facility in Boston. I am going to assume 18 gates should be sufficient for their operations.

 

[Equilibria]

This is going to be a great project and really give AA a nice facility in Boston. I am going to assume 18 gates should be sufficient for their operations.

Massport has earned some assumptions of quality with their prior work, but it's not like there's interior renderings in the package. I'm hoping for good things both in the AA facility (including a new neon/LED logo sign) and in the subsequent freshening of the other side for Southwest. Removing the interior walls over there made a huge difference, but replacing those awful grey seats and adding way more power outlets would be nice. Also, getting rid of that ugly mural on the outside of the building.

I wonder if AA will follow United's lead in moving the jetway flag. If Southwest keeps the old one, that would give Logan 4 flags and 3 at Terminal B alone... might as well do what some other airports do and put a flag on every jetway.

 

[mass88]

Massport has earned some assumptions of quality with their prior work, but it's not like there's interior renderings in the package. I'm hoping for good things both in the AA facility (including a new neon/LED logo sign) and in the subsequent freshening of the other side for Southwest. Removing the interior walls over there made a huge difference, but replacing those awful grey seats and adding way more power outlets would be nice. Also, getting rid of that ugly mural on the outside of the building.

I wonder if AA will follow United's lead in moving the jetway flag. If Southwest keeps the old one, that would give Logan 4 flags and 3 at Terminal B alone... might as well do what some other airports do and put a flag on every jetway.

I am basing my comment on the overall project plan as it looks like it will be a nice upgrade for that area of B. Hopefully the interior will be nice quality.

By and large Massport will have completely renovated and expanded all of Terminal B come 2018. It's nice to see them try and improve what they have. Is there a project in the works to bring B37 and B38 in with the rest of the terminal? I thought I had seen something several months ago.

 

[BuilditDenser]

I am basing my comment on the overall project plan as it looks like it will be a nice upgrade for that area of B. Hopefully the interior will be nice quality.

By and large Massport will have completely renovated and expanded all of Terminal B come 2018. It's nice to see them try and improve what they have. Is there a project in the works to bring B37 and B38 in with the rest of the terminal? I thought I had seen something several months ago.

I found this Supplemental Information Package For Trade Contractor Pre-Qualification posted online in july. It looks like it will connect the gates, demolish the small tsa checkpoint, refurbish the area, new elevators, and refurb bathrooms. Unsure if the next few events like posting a RFQ happened on time: http://www.massport.com/capitalprog...C2/L1430-C2 Trades Supplemental Info Pkg2.pdf


Slowly but surely logan is becoming a normal airport with normal terminals!

 

[Equilibria]

I found this Supplemental Information Package For Trade Contractor Pre-Qualification posted online in july. It looks like it will connect the gates, demolish the small tsa checkpoint, refurbish the area, new elevators, and refurb bathrooms. Unsure if the next few events like posting a RFQ happened on time: http://www.massport.com/capitalprog...C2/L1430-C2 Trades Supplemental Info Pkg2.pdf

It's already under construction. The Asian Fusion side of the food court is plywood, and Virgin has moved to C40-42.

 

[omaja]

We should be lucky Madrid wasn't dropped during Spain's financial issues. There would have to be some good business traffic from Santander due to having NA HQ in Boston. I wonder if people getting to the Spain headquarters connect in Madrid Airport or just take a train to Santander. Things have to be getting better now that we have Air Europa adding some extra seasonal lift.

Banco Santander's global head office is located in the suburbs of Madrid, not in the city of Santander. There initially would have been decent traffic, but the bank has not been doing too well for a number of years and as a result its contribution to BOS-MAD traffic is nowhere near what you might think. To be fair, Iberia's MAD flight does offer unique connections compared to BA/LHR, which is probably one reason it has stuck around year-round (albeit less-than-daily in winter).

I'd say Air Europa's entrance into BOS-MAD has a twofold purpose: to preclude Norwegian from starting BOS-Spain routes and to give SkyTeam a presence in the market (since Delta is intent on upping its presence in BOS). Not sure if it's necessarily an indicator of the local BOS-MAD market getting stronger, though it may be a supporting factor.

Norwegian is certainly the only real option right now to try BOS-BCN, though it might be a long shot given that their currently-announced routes are either larger local markets (LA, Newark/NYC and Fort Lauderdale/Miami) or don't have nonstop service to Spain (Oakland/SF).

 

[datadyne007]

I found this Supplemental Information Package For Trade Contractor Pre-Qualification posted online in july. It looks like it will connect the gates, demolish the small tsa checkpoint, refurbish the area, new elevators, and refurb bathrooms. Unsure if the next few events like posting a RFQ happened on time: http://www.massport.com/capitalprog...C2/L1430-C2 Trades Supplemental Info Pkg2.pdf


Slowly but surely logan is becoming a normal airport with normal terminals!

The Terminal B Consolidation project was covered in the Logan Capital Projects thread, which is where discussion of construction activity should be discussed:

http://www.archboston.org/community/showpost.php?p=273222&postcount=7

 

[BuilditDenser]

Southwest just came out with their 2017 summer schedule. For Boston, there are three changes:

BOS-MDW now has 6 departures per day, up from 4
BOS - STL now has 4 departures per day, up from 3
BOS - ATL still has 3 departures per day, but the earliest one is now moved to a painful 5:05am.


Personally, I am happy to see more capacity going to MDW given how it is the city I fly most to. As for the BOS-ATL flight, i think they are trying to create some differentiation between themselves and jetblue. Currently, Jetblue is drastically below the cost of any other carrier to atlanta (promos and new entry) and the only way that WN can maintain their loads is by shifting their flight times, decreasing service, or decreasing the price of the flight. There is a crowd who will always take the earliest possible direct flight regardless of the cost (consultants!). If they WN maintain their loads for this flight, I think that they will drop out of the Bos - Atl market or heavily reduce their service to 1 flight per day. Remember, delta is increasing bos-atl service to 12x per day with 12 A321s and Jetblue is adding 5 A320 flights.


https://www.southwestaircommunity.c...66732/stories/46285/1/Summer2017SkedFreqs.pdf

https://www.southwestaircommunity.c... Base Schedule_new and discounted markets.pdf

 

[bigpicture7]

Southwest just came out with their 2017 summer schedule. For Boston, there are three changes:

BOS-MDW now has 6 departures per day, up from 4
BOS - STL now has 4 departures per day, up from 3
BOS - ATL still has 3 departures per day, but the earliest one is now moved to a painful 5:05am.


Personally, I am happy to see more capacity going to MDW given how it is the city I fly most to. As for the BOS-ATL flight, i think they are trying to create some differentiation between themselves and jetblue. Currently, Jetblue is drastically below the cost of any other carrier to atlanta (promos and new entry) and the only way that WN can maintain their loads is by shifting their flight times, decreasing service, or decreasing the price of the flight. There is a crowd who will always take the earliest possible direct flight regardless of the cost (consultants!). If they WN maintain their loads for this flight, I think that they will drop out of the Bos - Atl market or heavily reduce their service to 1 flight per day. Remember, delta is increasing bos-atl service to 12x per day with 12 A321s and Jetblue is adding 5 A320 flights.


https://www.southwestaircommunity.c...66732/stories/46285/1/Summer2017SkedFreqs.pdf

https://www.southwestaircommunity.c... Base Schedule_new and discounted markets.pdf

That is some SERIOUS overall capacity to atlanta in the coming year. I think southwest is making a risky bet, but personally, I would have been on that flight many times a few years ago when I was doing work down there. There's always the occasional need for same-day flying (e.g., attend a meeting that morning after you've just flown in) - it ain't fun, glad i'm not doing it right now.

 

[atlantaden]

Southwest just came out with their 2017 summer schedule. For Boston, there are three changes:
BOS - ATL still has 3 departures per day, but the earliest one is now moved to a painful 5:05am.
https://www.southwestaircommunity.c...66732/stories/46285/1/Summer2017SkedFreqs.pdf

https://www.southwestaircommunity.c... Base Schedule_new and discounted markets.pdf

Southwest completely screwed up the ATL-BOS service that they took over from Air Tran! I can't tell you how happy I am to have Jet Blue (tickets already bought for flight up to BOS on Jet Blue's 3/30/17 inaugural day) coming into that market! My only hope is that SW remains in the market to keep things somewhat competitive.

 

[mass88]

When is the last time Boston had this much service to St. Louis? Has to be before AA really tore down the TWA St. Louis hub back in 2003-2005.

 

[adamh8297]

When is the last time Boston had this much service to St. Louis? Has to be before AA really tore down the TWA St. Louis hub back in 2003-2005.

Summer 2003 - 20000 seats on the route, between 4-5 roundtrips a day.

The Following year American kept frequency but started to use regional jet planes 50% of the time.

In Summer 2001 - TWA (purchased but not integrated in AA) ran 6-7 daily flights.

All of this is available quickly on aviationdb.net

 

[tysmith95]

I would think that Southwest would add SAT before OAK. No competition on a potential SAT (San Antonio) route. In fact I believe that it is the largest unserved domestic market from Logan. It could support two fights a day.

 

[BuilditDenser]

While I agree that SAT is woefully underserved, it is not even in the top 7 most underserved flights when sorted by one stop bookings (I only have data for the top 7). If anyone is curious, here they are:

BOS -MCO
BOS - LAS
BOS - SFO (this will change given the increase in service)
BOS - LAX
BOS - TPA
BOS - FLL (B6 is likely to increase service)
BOS - SAN

Source:https://cdn2.hubspot.net/hubfs/4909...red/UnderservedUncovered-USedition-Report.pdf

 

[tysmith95]

Unserved not underserved. Underserved routes already have a non stop option. Unserved routes don't. It's apples and oranges.

LAS, MCO, and TPA all have lots of leisure traffic that won't mind a stopover if they pay a little bit less.


SAN could be an interesting route for Southwest to hop on. They do have a large focus city in SAN. However they would be competing with both AS and B6 so who knows if the market is large enough for 3 carriers. Plus Boston-California routes are very long, they are the ones where a stopover makes the most sense.

 

[bigpicture7]

Unserved domestic flights I'd like to see at Logan (in order):

San Antonio
Omaha
Albuquerque
Oklahoma City

Of those, the only one that probably stands a chance is SAT.

 

[tysmith95]

I'd add Vancouver to that list.

 

[bigpicture7]

I'd add Vancouver to that list.

Oh absolutely, that would be probably be my top choice overall...but I was saying domestic

 

[BuilditDenser]

On a different topic, BOS apparently has room for an additional 300 departures per day using the existing facilities

While the number of passengers has shot upwards, over the last 10 to 15 years the number of flights per day has fallen from about 1,500 to around 1,200, according to Massport CEO Tom Glynn. Planes flying in and out of Logan are generally bigger today and more crowded, according to Massport.

Glynn said that "in theory" the reduction in flights means the airport has the capacity for an additional 300 flights per day, but said, "That's not necessarily a goal that we have."

Announced gains for the next few couple of years:

B6: current: about 120, going to 200 (no date given). increase: 80
DL: current: about 75 (guess), going to 120 in 2018, increase: 45
WN: gaining 2 gates in 2018, increase: 20

Announced gains by 2018 (very optimistic): 145.

I think that the real excess capacity will lie within AA and UL by the end of 2018.



Glynn quote: http://www.wbjournal.com/article/20161229/NEWS01/161229929
B6 increase: http://www.businesswire.com/news/ho...’s-Largest-Airline Ramps-Up Plan for-200-Peak
DL increase: http://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1351193
WN already explained earlier in this thread