MA Casino Developments

[Ron Newman]

Wynn's site is pretty close to where the Orange Line used to terminate, before it was rerouted and extended to Malden.

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

Commuter rail stop is not going to happen here. The Mystic River Bridge has one of the 2 or 3 steepest grades--if not the single steepest--on the commuter rail, and the would-be stop would be right in the middle of one of the inclines. It's 25 MPH restricted today because of proximity to the Western Route merge on the Somerville side, and then because of the Chelsea grade crossings it never lifts until past Eastern Ave.

They'd have to run a safety brake check to be able to safely slow into a station that's either on or at the bottom of such a steep incline, which is probably going to halve speeds to 10-15 MPH over the bridge. And dash any hope of raising speeds from Chelsea when the inbound-side brake test has to happen there. Then they have to give the Eastern Route much wider schedule margin for error at the junction with the Western Route because all trains will be going half as fast, outbounds are being padded for the brake check on the bridge, and inbounds are being padded as protection for engine stalls climbing such a steep grade from a dead stop. That's going to make an already congested junction a pinch point that degrades all Haverhill, Newburyport, and Rockport schedules because of the extra fudge factor required for slots at the junction. And there might be liability concerns about freights, since both Pan Am and CSX use the bridge 6 days a week to reach Everett Terminal. Such a station platform would have to be mini-high because Everett Terminal is a clearance route, and they would be justifiably nervous about passing through a low platform with people milling around on it should a freight have brake trouble coming on/off the incline.


Does more harm than good for the relatively meager benefits. There is at least a possibility of raising speeds between Broadway and Revere back to 60 MPH if they took care of the grade crossings with eliminations or quad-gate upgrades and get the schedule to Lynn back to what it was in the mid-80's. The whole Eastern Route's future throughput pretty much depends on doing just that. The worst thing they could do is seal off any hope of that ever happening by reducing speeds even further on the bridge and instituting those brake tests.



If there's going to be casino transit on this ROW it has to be one of the Urban Ring configurations or a shuttle bus from Wellington or Sullivan. It physically doesn't work for commuter rail because of all the safety precautions, and I'm betting the T gets appropriately scared by the liability considerations of putting platform + pedestrians on the bottom of such a steep incline that gets such huge amounts of mixed freight and passenger traffic. Everything about the setup screams "awkward" from an ops standpoint.

 

[Arlington]

Commuter rail stop is not going to happen here. The Mystic River Bridge has one of the 2 or 3 steepest grades--if not the single steepest--on the commuter rail, and the would-be stop would be right in the middle of one of the inclines. ...
If there's going to be casino transit on this ROW it has to be one of the Urban Ring configurations or a shuttle bus from Wellington or Sullivan. It physically doesn't work for commuter rail because of all the safety precautions, and I'm betting the T gets appropriately scared by the liability considerations of putting platform + pedestrians on the bottom of such a steep incline that gets such huge amounts of mixed freight and passenger traffic. Everything about the setup screams "awkward" from an ops standpoint.

Thanks! Since It comes from F-Line, I'd consider it to be the definitive answer.

No CR stop (given the ops) and not Green/Orange (given the cost + politics) still leaves plenty of bus, water, bike, pedestrian and other (aerial) options.

 

[Arlington]

The strong cab drivers union is the reason the monorail doesn't go to the airport (per my understanding). They would stand to lose tons (what would be their real purpose then?).

Taxi opposition was/is huge I'll happily concede. But note that the core point is unchanged: Either Casinos provide buses (e.g. to Connecticut) or do not consider mass transit a critical part of their business model.

The failure of the Vegas monorail to reach the airport, and the cancellation of the ACES train (NYC to Atlantic City) underscore this. They are bus people, not "jump-start Urban Ring / build CR-station" people. Airports seem to bankroll/attract successful transit lines (lots of examples), but Casinos don't (I can't think of any).

 

[DominusNovus]

Commuter rail stop is not going to happen here. The Mystic River Bridge has one of the 2 or 3 steepest grades--if not the single steepest--on the commuter rail, and the would-be stop would be right in the middle of one of the inclines. It's 25 MPH restricted today because of proximity to the Western Route merge on the Somerville side, and then because of the Chelsea grade crossings it never lifts until past Eastern Ave.

Just to throw out an idea, what if the station was elevated to a level more even with the height of the bridge? Would that work, assuming the cost wasn't too outrageous (which it would be, of course)?

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

Just to throw out an idea, what if the station was elevated to a level more even with the height of the bridge? Would that work, assuming the cost wasn't too outrageous (which it would be, of course)?

That would be even worse. Both ends of the bridge incline up until they reach the center span, and the very steepest parts are the approach spans. A train coming up the superelevated curve on the Somerville side would have zero sightlines to see anybody milling around in the track area at the platform. A low platform, remember. And a platform that itself is going to slope upwards to someone standing on it. For safety reasons they would never allow that.

You can't put a RR station within 1 mile of this casino parcel without doing a lot more harm than good. At > 1 mile...you're closer to Chelsea and North Station. Urban Ring or local bus is the only way this site can be door-to-door served.

 

[George_Apley]

Urban Ring or local bus is the only way this site can be door-to-door served.

Just bus Urban Ring? Or would there be some option for a rail Urban Ring?

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

Just bus Urban Ring? Or would there be some option for a rail Urban Ring?

Either one.

The only thing you're probably not getting is HRT due to the Chelsea station grade crossing under Route 1 being a hard/impossible elimination and the need to build a second movable bridge next to the Chelsea St. one. LRT can handle the 1 un-zappable grade crossing just fine and scoot across the current bridge in mixed traffic. Plenty of room on the ROW for BRT, but trolleys would be able to do 45-50 MPH easily vs. 25-30 MPH on a narrowish busway.

 

[TheRifleman]

Thanks! Since It comes from F-Line, I'd consider it to be the definitive answer.

No CR stop (given the ops) and not Green/Orange (given the cost + politics) still leaves plenty of bus, water, bike, pedestrian and other (aerial) options.

Good luck with that. If the casino is built in this location without a CR stop or a Green/Orange stop Traffic is going to be a major cluster fuck.

Just look at the engineering of the roads when they built the strip mall in Everett around the rotary on the old Monsanto site. Its a NIGHTMARE going towards Wellington.

 

[Arlington]

Good luck with that. If the casino is built in this location without a CR stop or a Green/Orange stop Traffic is going to be a major cluster fuck.

Just look at the engineering of the roads when they built the strip mall in Everett around the rotary on the old Monsanto site. Its a NIGHTMARE going towards Wellington.

You mean the Home Depot / Target / Costco ? (Gateway Center). I don't find your analogy very compelling (some back-of-the-envelope math might help). Even comparing the size of the parking lot as a proxy for trip-demand would help (AFAICT, Gateway Center is the bigger trip-generator simply from how huge its parking is)

The big thing is I don't think Casinos have daily peak commuting patterns that coincide with existing rush hours, while Retail does (especially on Weekends, when the "whole" day-long rush is a retail rush)

 

[SeamusMcFly]

^^^^ Exactly.
There may be some increased after work traffic that way (particularly on a Friday), but a lot of those people would already be heading that way and say "I think I'll go to the casino on the way home."

People in the City who live south or west will most likely not be a part of this. They'll have their own to go to without the nightmare.

Minus the mass transit options a lot of the people going will be via. bus and cab. People who care a bit less about traffic.

People question conventioneers (its above but I'm not going to look for it) being able to "find Everett", they don't find anything. They get in a cab and say "to the casino boy!!" or something akin to that.

Traffic will obviously see an uptick of some sorts, but as discussed a number of times before, there is no set time for when to go to a casino. You just go. It's not a football game, it's not a concert (although they'll have them, people will trickle in all day and enjoy the place before the show). It is not the Apocalypse that it is made out to be however.

 

[TheRifleman]

You mean the Home Depot / Target / Costco ? (Gateway Center). I don't find your analogy very compelling (some back-of-the-envelope math might help). Even comparing the size of the parking lot as a proxy for trip-demand would help (AFAICT, Gateway Center is the bigger trip-generator simply from how huge its parking is)

The big thing is I don't think Casinos have daily peak commuting patterns that coincide with existing rush hours, while Retail does (especially on Weekends, when the "whole" day-long rush is a retail rush)

Yes the Gateway Center. The parking lot does not compensate for the rest of the accessability to get to this location. There should be two access routes one coming in from Wellington and the other coming out going towards Boston coming out towards the Boston Edison plant side. They couldn't even get that right in the development.

The area near Gateway Center right now is a traffic nightmare from
7-9am Morning hours
3-6pm School & work

Now factor in a Billion dollar Casino in the Boston area. Which will likely have big promotionals, star performers, big shows. So now we have a Grid Lock scenario around the area every Friday & Sat nights till 9PM.

This area will desperately need a rail-stop for direct access.

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

Gateway does not have a public egress onto Chemical Lane because that (currently private/limited-liability) grade crossing over the Eastern Route is at the bottom of the incline off the Mystic bridge. Same deal as if you put a stop there: trains have to do a brake test and cut their speed in half for safety. The traffic levels in/out of the plaza didn't merit a private developer paying to overpass the tracks, so it was never done.

Absolutely could be an option for load-spreading the traffic if the casino developers wanted to pay for bringing Mystic View Rd. over the tracks and tying into Broadway.

 

[DominusNovus]

Gateway does not have a public egress onto Chemical Lane because that (currently private/limited-liability) grade crossing over the Eastern Route is at the bottom of the incline off the Mystic bridge. Same deal as if you put a stop there: trains have to do a brake test and cut their speed in half for safety. The traffic levels in/out of the plaza didn't merit a private developer paying to overpass the tracks, so it was never done.

Absolutely could be an option for load-spreading the traffic if the casino developers wanted to pay for bringing Mystic View Rd. over the tracks and tying into Broadway.

F-line, you said earlier that elevating the tracks for a station wouldn't work. Since I'm stubborn, I'd ask how far north could the tracks be kept at an elevation comparable to the height of the bridge? Is the bridge height comparable to the elevation of the rt 99 overpass?

 

[Ron Newman]

If the grade crossing has quad-gates and lights, why would the train need to slow down for it?

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

If the grade crossing has quad-gates and lights, why would the train need to slow down for it?

Has nothing to do with crossing safety and everything to do with on-train safety. Specifically, protection against brake failure. Trains are descending one of the steepest grades in the entire system and obstructions on the track are not visible at the bottom of the bridge until the train has hit the peak of the bridge. If they have to dump the brakes and go into emergency because a vehicle is stalled in the middle of the crossing it puts maximum stress on the brake components in the cars at a point where the train is 40+ feet in the air crossing a body of water on a bridge that has a superelevated curve on the Somerville side. That's unsafe and a derailment risk for the train, especially the heavy-duty freights that cross the bridge 4-5 times a day.

If it were only a grade crossing--even one at the bottom of a steep hill--this wouldn't be an issue. It's the potential of locked brakes on a maximum-stress grade jackknifing a commuter rail coach into a watery grave or sending a Hazmat payload into the Mystic that is the extra special risk here.


The crossing that is currently there is chain-linked off on both sides, so it is not in regular industrial use at all and probably hasn't been ever since Gateway was under construction. I'm guessing MBTA ROW maintenance personnel are the only ones allowed to use it, and a slow order gets issued over the bridge whenever the fence is unlocked.

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

F-line, you said earlier that elevating the tracks for a station wouldn't work. Since I'm stubborn, I'd ask how far north could the tracks be kept at an elevation comparable to the height of the bridge? Is the bridge height comparable to the elevation of the rt 99 overpass?

No...it's way higher.

This. . .

. . .opened in 1988 replacing this. . .

. . .crumbling old 19th century drawbridge (see the new bridge piers under construction in the background). Since this is the navigable portion of the river south of the dam they had to elevate the shit out of it to get a fixed span. And because of the junction right on the Somerville side and need for keeping the old span in-service during construction they had to build that superelevated curve from the Somerville side and stretch the outer limits of acceptable RR grades. I can't find specs on how tall it is, but it is quite a bit taller than the 1975-vintage Western Route/Orange Line fixed span on the other side of the dam. The thing is notorious for stalling out Pan Am's generally shitty-condition locomotives on the ascent when hauling a fully loaded Everett Terminal consist back to Somerville. They learned the hard way to either lash up extra locomotives or use overkill-power locos on all their Eastern Route jobs, lest they get stranded on the bridge until help arrived to push them over the hump.


Your guess is as good as mine from the photo angle how tall that actually is. Could easily be >40 feet in the center. What's plain as day from the photo is that the Somerville superelevation is pretty wicked (look at the tilt as it passes over the walking path on the curve), and there is no way for a train on the bridge to see what's on the other side of the bridge until you're well past the buoys. This might even understate it vs. the view from the Assembly Sq. parking lot, where it looks like the trains are going up a roller coaster.


Wouldn't have been nearly so compromised by geometry had it not been an in-place replacement of that low-hanging old drawbridge with such close proximity to a curve and a junction. May not look like much, but this took some deceptively tricky engineering to build while doing no harm to ops/schedules.

 

[Ron Newman]

The T's disallowing of that Chemical Lane grade crossing is what caused Shaw's to cancel their plans for a supermarket at Gateway Center. (instead, Costco was built)

 

[Arlington]

Yes the Gateway Center. The parking lot does not compensate for the rest of the accessability to get to this location.

I'm not saying the parking lot is "compensation" but rather that it is "evidence"....evidence that Gateway Center is designed/required to have such a big parking lot because it is expected to attract/generate a huge amount of traffic (that zoning ultimately forces them to build huge parking lots for). I'll even concede that Zoning requires too much parking (it does) but since it does that uniformly, comparing parking comes close to comparing traffic-generation. {EDIT}I'm pretty sure Gateway also paid for the complete rebuilding of its traffic circle on Rte 16....but didn't have to build anybody rail anything.{/EDIT}

Now factor in a Billion dollar Casino in the Boston area. Which will likely have big promotionals, star performers, big shows. So now we have a Grid Lock scenario around the area every Friday & Sat nights till 9PM.

When doing traffic-generation studies they estimate trip-generation at certain key hours where they expect trouble (morning rush, pm rush, and, for retail, Saturday AM). If the Casino were a billion-dollar office park, then we'd really really care because it'd be loading people on at rush hour. Or another big retailer, 'cause it would compound the troubles seen at Gateway Center.

But if your use has an off-hours peak, as do mega churches (Sunday AM) or high-school stadiums (Game Afternoons) or other leisure activities, these generate their peak load at times when there's otherwise light traffic and use unused road capacity, and it usually suffices to have the same old roads, but special signs, and traffic control (police at intersections after a high-school football game).

Casinos? If they have a big concert, sure, put some detail cops out, and force the Casino to pay top-dollar for detail cops at $10,000 a pop. Traffic planners would consider the problem solved at that point.

There's no cause for alarm no justification for spending millions to build and millions to operate a rail anything for the off-rush, occaisional-peak stuff that the Casino is likely to make. Mostly, its patrons will be a steady trickle in and out all day, every day, and nothing like the the Saturday AM madhouse at Gateway Center or the rush-our craziness (which is more Wellington and Mellon's fault and just general rushiness)

 

[DominusNovus]

No...it's way higher.

Fantastic. Run the line at that high elevation all the way past 99. Little but industrial parks until you get to rte 1 anyway, so it won't exactly ruin any neighborhoods.