MA Casino Developments

I really dislike the tax on the poor reference for casinos and gambling. Call it a tax on the stupid and I'm there with you.

Call it fun or a release or whatever else and I'll be there with you to. Call me to meet up there for a night out, I'll be there with you with a fancy shirt on.
 
DominusNovus said:
I'm sorry, but in my extensive experience in the Convenience Store industry, I can't imagine Casinos even coming close to the numbers of gamblers sitting in the various stores around Massachusetts, wasting their money away.

I also object to the notion that all gambling preys on weak minds. I know plenty of people who do it just for fun. Best example is a professor of mine was friends with a Middle Eastern Sheik, who'd bet million dollar chips at casinos, just to show off.
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Ok, nearly all, like 99%, with or without that nonstop flight from Qatar or Dubai or Istanbul, lets estimate that, after you include high-rollers, it'll still be something like 80% of dollars wagered in Everett are going to from locals--perhaps just rich enough to afford a car--ruining their lives.
 
SeamusMcFly said:
I really dislike the tax on the poor reference for casinos and gambling. Call it a tax on the stupid and I'm there with you.

Call it fun or a release or whatever else and I'll be there with you to. Call me to meet up there for a night out, I'll be there with you with a fancy shirt on.
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The problem is that stupid and poor are highly correlated with a common source: low educational attainment and low will power.

Its like most of these sin taxes. Almost everyone drinks and has a good time. The dirty secret of the beer companies is that something like 50% of all beer is sold to alcoholics--whether "bums" or high-functioning professionals. You'll see a cross-section of society at the Casino, but they make their money on the losers.

If you understand luck (i.e. math), you know that we can't expect to be so lucky as to have only shieks and William Bennett as patrons in Everett.
 
aaaaaa said:
Arlington said:
The problem is that stupid and poor are highly correlated with a common source: low educational attainment and low will power.
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Source please.
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Easy-read version: The Key to Health, Wealth and Success: Self-Control
Published scientific paper version: A gradient of childhood self-control predicts health, wealth, and public safety

I assume you are satisfied that there's sufficient correlation between low skills and low earnings and that childhood poverty is correlated to low educational attainment that I don't have to give a source for either as long as I don't rely on a causal direction. Poverty cycle captures it pretty well.

So it sticks: Gambling is a tax on people who are bad at math, and particularly regressive tax on people who are bad at resisting (who probably aren't well-educated, high-earning, or healthy).

aaaaaa said:
The amount of anecdotal evidence and prejudices presented as fact in this thread is startling, and sad.
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Source please.
 
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I know it might be 'anecdotal evidence' but the fact of the matter is that when you go to poorer areas, you see a very particular style of convenience store set up. It includes a sitting area, with tables arrayed around a Keno screen, and generally a separate counter and dedicated employee for lottery and scratch tickets.

The fact is that poor people play the lottery much more than rich people. It only makes sense: Mitt Romney's only reason to play the lottery is whimsy. Joe Sixpack's reason is misplaced hope for a better life.
 
aaaaaa said:
The authors also note that being poor is highly correlated with simply being poor. Many have noted that economic mobility has become much more limited (pdf) and the college wage premium has leveled off quite a bit, suggesting that it's not simply skills that drive socioeconomic status (link). So, saying that the poor are poor simply for a lack of will power is deceptive. And, saying that gambling is a tax for those who are bad at math is a bit disingenuous.

Thank you for that article, I do appreciate that you provided some empirical data to compliment your claim.
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While the correlation with income and low educational attainment is weaker, it is still there, so really, you've moved us to a place where there are still 3 strong correlates to being poor (I've added yours as a third and another correlate as a 4th)

1) Low will power
2) Low educational attainment
3) Not having money
4) Socially isolated / no support network

These 4 characteristics that make you perfect prey are also a perfect counterpoint to the 4 characteristics that will get you banned.

How do we know that Casinos are are good at "beating" the poor? By looking at those that they expel/ban from Blackjack--the only game smart people play. The Casinos root out and expel those that reveal themselves to be:

1) Disciplined, Patient
2) Card-counting (good at math)
3) Deep-pocketed
4) Working in teams
 
Arlington said:
Easy-read version: The Key to Health, Wealth and Success: Self-Control
Published scientific paper version: A gradient of childhood self-control predicts health, wealth, and public safety

I assume you are satisfied that there's sufficient correlation between low skills and low earnings and that childhood poverty is correlated to low educational attainment that I don't have to give a source for either as long as I don't rely on a causal direction. Poverty cycle captures it pretty well.

So it sticks: Gambling is a tax on people who are bad at math, and particularly regressive tax on people who are bad at resisting (who probably aren't well-educated, high-earning, or healthy).


Source please.
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Only problem is... it's not a tax, its a choice. I don't have the choice not to pay taxes (well I do but I'll lose everything and possibly go to jail). Going is a choice. If you can't afford to lose what you bring, it was a bad choice. It is not a tax. Lottery is not a tax. Scratch tickets are not a tax. Alcohol is not a tax, although you pay taxes on it, same with smoking. These are all things you see poor or uneducated or not well adjusted people doing. Why? Because they are categorically stupid.
The pack says don't smoke me you will die.... to hell with that, it looks cool or calms my nerves.
The can says don't operate a car after drinking me.... don't tell me what to do, I can keep it between those 3 criss crossed lines.
Slot machines have the worst odds in the house..... the most people in the casino are sitting at them.

On top of all that. These pass times, habits, or addictions are all extremely expensive. Again, these packs cost 8 bucks a pack and you will go through 1 to 2 of them a day, all the while making yourself sicker and sicker... why not give it a try? I don't care where you came from, live, or how bad your grades were in school, the evidence and reasoning against something like that are overwhelming yet people do it every day.No one is forcing them. Putting signs at 3 feet above grades to hook young people isn't shoving it in their mouthing and lighting it. A sign on the highway saying table games now open in RI doesn't have a hook with a line on it dragging me to wherever twin rivers is.

Stop blaming the so called evils of society for the stupidity of society. If casinos and lottery were banned people would find a different vice.

The casino makes its bank on the people that come in and lose $200 bucks (pretty average for a day visitor to have a limit like that. That person goes a few times a year perhaps. They want 5,000 of those people a day. That's a million bucks. Not bad, and no one lost their house. Will some poor fool get so wrapped up that they do lose their house or have to give handies for 5 bucks just to afford a ride home? I'm sure it will. The casino or the evils of society didn't make that happen. Someone's compulsive mind allowed that to happen.

Is a black jack dealer supposed to somehow be like your local bartender and know when you've had enough? That's impossible.

Blah, I went on another rant. Damnit!
 
SeamusMcFly said:
Only problem is... it's not a tax, its a choice. I don't have the choice not to pay taxes (well I do but I'll lose everything and possibly go to jail). Going is a choice. If you can't afford to lose what you bring, it was a bad choice. It is not a tax. Lottery is not a tax. Scratch tickets are not a tax. Alcohol is not a tax, although you pay taxes on it, same with smoking.
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Yes, I've got a more expansive view of tax ("money taken under color of law") and a narrower view of how free addicts are (the word, in Latin, means "debt slave" or "prisoner" and has a connotation along the lines of "the damned").

Some may be able to use crack recreationally, at $200 in an evening and then back to work tomorrow, but that doesn't spare us having to consider what happens to the addict.
 
Arlington said:
How do we know that Casinos are are good at "beating" the poor? By looking at those that they expel/ban from Blackjack--the only game smart people play. The Casinos root out and expel those that reveal themselves to be:

1) Disciplined, Patient
2) Card-counting (good at math)
3) Deep-pocketed
4) Working in teams
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I've actually yet to see a casino throwing someone out for pockets that are too deep.
 
Shepard said:
I've actually yet to see a casino throwing someone out for pockets that are too deep.
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My understanding is that its a tip-off when, after a patient, disciplined small-stakes losing "streak" (of small bets while counting cards) the gambler starts betting big when the count has turned favorable.. Revealing deep pockets at that moment gets you busted, or at least flagged as a card-counter.

Or only showing up with big bets at moments when the count is favorable to players (after being covertly tipped by your spotter). The casino knows your odds of that are "normal" but when you keep showing up at just the right moments with your big bets, you are not "normal" and need to be kicked out.

A great summary of "Bringing Down the House" is available here, the Wired Magazine article Hacking Las Vegas
 
Shepard said:
I've actually yet to see a casino throwing someone out for pockets that are too deep.
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Displine is key. Walking away everytime up 10 or 15% especially if a shoot is hot.

If you ever notice the minimum bets on the weekends average around $25.00 which most people come to the casino with possibly a 1,000 dollar and under.
If you have a bad shoot the odds are against you early on to buy time for the shoot to turn green. So the casino is already putting you at a disadvantage to place high minimum bets.

Minimum bets during the week are $5 which $1,000 dollars buys you time to place more bets for the shoot to turn.
 
Seems silly at this point to debate whether casino gambling is good, bad or ugly. Deval Patrick and his friends have made that decision.

The new decision, the one that is worth debating, is where does the casino go and what does it look like?

MILFORD:
- Another Indian casino in the woods? and in southern mass to boot where all the others are? Are we trying to lose the state money?

EAST BOSTON:
- Obviously a casino resort belongs in Boston, but in the Back Bay or Convention Center/Parking Lots District not in Revere/Boston line. Also, to me, a horsetrack casino is seedy and low-brow. Has anyone here ever been to Suffolk Downs? It's not a place I'd take kids.

EVERETT:
- Where the hell is Everett and how do you get there? And the proposal seems too good to be true: a wacky bronze Disneyland on the Everett/Boston line.

So if you want to have a discussion worth having on an architecture/development board, which of the three do you like and why? "CASINOS ARE BAD!" is not an option.
 
Mike02125 said:
EVERETT:
- Where the hell is Everett and how do you get there? And the proposal seems too good to be true: a wacky bronze Disneyland on the Everett/Boston line.

.
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Everett is in between the Energy Grid of the old Boston Edison along with the stacks of oil tankers for the airlines on one side crossing through the area is the polluted mystic river sitting on a pile of the most contaminated shit thankfully from the most corrupt company in the world which gave a certain part of Everett's community some serious cancer problems. Very sad.
 
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TheRifleman said:
Everett is in between the Energy Grid of the old Boston Edison along with the stacks of oil tankers for the airlines on one side crossing through the area is the polluted mystic river sitting on a pile of the most contaminated shit thankfully from the most corrupt company in the world which gave a certain part of Everett's community some serious cancer problems. Very sad.
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I believe Everett is the right place for a casino--closest to a "public benefit" purpose (cleaning up a brownfield) that they've come up with, and if folks want to console themselves that the gambling money is doing "good", making reparations to Everett seems more current than making reparations to Native Americans.

Hopefully Everett will get a bit of transportation infrastructure too, like a section of Urban Ring, a new Commuter Rail Station on the north end, a shuttle boat to the Financial District, or a pedestrian path across the Amelia Earhart Dam.

Let the East Boston tracks (dog and horse) be one day converted to TOD / Condos by the sea and the Blue Line.
 
The Everett site is located right next to the commuter rail line to Chelsea, correct?
 
It's just down the river from the Mystic Locks/Dam, right? If so, then yes, the CR goes right by the site.

If they were interested in using the CR to draw people in, the Chelsea stop, at approximately 2 and a half miles away, is close enough to justify a shuttle to and from instead of a new stop. (Though I wouldn't put it past the developer to lobby/pay for a new stop if they really wanted one.)
 
Downburst said:
It's just down the river from the Mystic Locks/Dam, right? If so, then yes, the CR goes right by the site.

If they were interested in using the CR to draw people in, the Chelsea stop, at approximately 2 and a half miles away, is close enough to justify a shuttle to and from instead of a new stop. (Though I wouldn't put it past the developer to lobby/pay for a new stop if they really wanted one.)
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I'd say a new stop would probably be better; why make people take one more door? Although, they'd probably be running shuttles anyway in either situation, since odds are the commuter rail schedule wouldn't sync up too well with a casino's schedule.

Now, if they ran a Green or Orange Line spur there that went up to Wonderland...
 
I got this question in at the end of a page a couple back, so I feel justified bumping it given these transit comments...

Shepard said:
I'm surprised that the casino proposal hasn't floated a GL or OL spur across the Mystic on the existing ROW. That's got to be a relatively simple undertaking, especially if Wynn foots a good deal of the bill.

I'd venture to say that it's actually cheaper to bring rail rapid transit to this site in Everett than it would to the Seaport (i.e. convert SL to light rail and connect it into the GL). I may be wrong, but it doesn't look out of the question in any case.

My feeling is that if Wynn were truly serious he'd be putting it on the table... or perhaps Everett should be putting it on the table now.
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A gondola / cable car (the ski kind) from assembly square might work well
 
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