MA Casino Developments

[TheRifleman]

Hey! We agree!

Competition will encourage Assembly to better-identify its target market and better-serve its local customers...and those who travel by transit. Competition is good for consumers (voters), good for smart competitors and bad for dumb/lazy ones (who prefer to be campaign contributors and get government protection).

Dumb venue-owners all over the city are threatened by the Casino, but consumers can only benefit.

So the Casino is a net win for Somerville's people.

Tell me again why Mayor Joe wants to sue Wynn?
Campaign contribs from entrenched/lazy commercial landowners?

The question you have to ask yourself is there enough money to go around the area?

Especially for the Retail End. You don't need retail drying up at Assembly Row because of Wynn Casino--It would be tough to jump start that area back up.

 

[SeamusMcFly]

I don't think what you just posted says anything that really conflicts with what I just said. All of the above can fit in the model I outlined. Mine was just more grounded in reality than sales pamphlet bullet items listed by Wynn.

 

[whighlander]

I don't think what you just posted says anything that really conflicts with what I just said. All of the above can fit in the model I outlined. Mine was just more grounded in reality than sales pamphlet bullet items listed by Wynn.

Seamus -- I think if you are prepared to spend $1.6B -- the aforementioned

The largest private development in Massachusetts history ($1.6 billion)
4,000 construction jobs created......More than 10 million labor hours to complete

and then when you are operating your staff will include

4,000 permanent.... among the top five private employees in Boston
Average annual salary of more than $51,700, not including tips, benefits or training

You will probably have done some serious planning -- a bit more grounded in reality than your model

 

[George_Apley]

The question you have to ask yourself is there enough money to go around the area?

Especially for the Retail End. You don't need retail drying up at Assembly Row because of Wynn Casino--It would be tough to jump start that area back up.

Assembly has outlets. People who shop at outlets aren't going to take their business to the highfalutin stores Wynn puts at the Casino. Different niche markets.

 

[davem]

Assembly has outlets. People who shop at outlets aren't going to take their business to the highfalutin stores Wynn puts at the Casino. Different niche markets.

I had a big post but chrome crashed.

But basically, yes. The casino is not going to syphon off much traffic from anywhere except possibly tourists shopping in Faneuil (who are getting tossed out anyway). The only other traffic I can see being diverted are those from Everett going to Cambridgeside, and that's only if Wynn has lower end stores.

Also, look at that design. Jesus christ, gaudy doesn't even begin to describe that neo-rococo mall meets greenhouse disaster.

Actually rich people won't be caught dead there unless they are already gambling. Less than rich people are going to keep going wherever they go now, it's not worth trekking to a casino. People who are shopping at outlets aren't going to go there because there aren't outlets. Poor people are going to blow all their money on gambling if they are there and won't be shopping. All this verbatim regarding the restaurants.

Even if the casino does somehow start sucking people out of the traditional shopping areas (which I highly doubt it will), it will be those who want to shop at sterile, corporate stores. So the traditional retail districts will have to re-reorient back to having local retailers. How is this bad?


And regarding nightlife, it would be awesome if the casino forced the downtown clubs to up their game. Boston does the small bar scene great, and the casino isn't going to syphon off one customer from that. But the clubs suck. There is nothing bad about them having to make the decision to seriously reevaluate what they are doing or risk shutting down. Although, I'm skeptical that will even happen. Boston has an unquenchable thirst for nightlife that's not nearly being met, and the population continues to increase. If anything this will just be filling a void.


IMO, the casino is going to create its own market. It's not going to syphon people off of anything, it's simply going to attract more people to it. Tourists will stay a day longer, people will go out to gamble and whatever-else-you-do-at-a-casino instead of staying home. The percentage loss of business from what's already happening will be little to none.

 

[whsurveyor]

Personally, I think the biggest issue for the mayor is the traffic. Assembly Row shares many of the same I-93 ramps with the proposed casino, and the new Partners headquarters will be adding an awful lot of car trips to the morning and evening commutes. If the casino plus Partners turns the evening commute in that area into gridlock, it's going to affect the viability of any future office development.

The proposed Sullivan Square makeover should also serve as a compliment to Assembly as well as improve the quality of life in East Somerville. Casino traffic threatens to derail those plans.

 

[Brad Plaid]

Let's see what Steve says about his Wynn Everett
http://www.wynnineverett.com/the_resort.html

outdoors in the summer

and inside winter garden

http://www.wynnineverett.com/files/WYNN-101_FactSheet.pdf

Well....I knew it was going to be pretty bad but if this is the final buildout the tacky/shlocky quotient has skyrocketed to a whole new order of magnitude. I can never unsee the last render. Will Marie Antoinette pop out of the Faberge egg every half hour? Even Vegas would reject this wretched excess.

 

[TheRifleman]

Assembly has outlets. People who shop at outlets aren't going to take their business to the highfalutin stores Wynn puts at the Casino. Different niche markets.

Wynn will put whoever pays for the retail space and also reap the benefits of customer's gambling points to help buy their products.

For Example: If Coach Bags is renting space from Assembly Row and it would benefit them more to relocate to the Casino depends on what the space is renting for.

But if I owned a retail spot I would rather be in Wynn Development to make money.

 

[davem]

Wynn will put whoever pays for the retail space and also reap the benefits of customer's gambling points to help buy their products.

For Example: If Coach Bags is renting space from Assembly Row and it would benefit them more to relocate to the Casino depends on what the space is renting for.

But if I owned a retail spot I would rather be in Wynn Development to make money.

You don't really get the concept of outlets, do you?

 

[lexicon506]

Well....I knew it was going to be pretty bad but if this is the final buildout the tacky/shlocky quotient has skyrocketed to a whole new order of magnitude.

Apparently Wynn is doing a complete redesign, a condition set when the Gaming Commission awarded him the license. According to Wynn, the new casino design will be "a gaming palace the likes of which has never been seen before in any city or country."

http://www.bostonherald.com/business/business_markets/2014/10/wynn_new_casino_redesign_dramatic

 

[SeamusMcFly]

Seamus -- I think if you are prepared to spend $1.6B -- the aforementioned


and then when you are operating your staff will include


You will probably have done some serious planning -- a bit more grounded in reality than your model

My model is based on experience working on a $900 million dollar resort casino, a $2 Billion dollar resort casino, & a $4 billion dollar resort casino.

It's speculation, but it's educated speculation.

 

[whighlander]

My model is based on experience working on a $900 million dollar resort casino, a $2 Billion dollar resort casino, & a $4 billion dollar resort casino.

It's speculation, but it's educated speculation.

Sorry -- what is a $4B resort casino like

The fanciest I've3 ever seen is the Marina Bay Sands in Singapore -- I think that the whole development was about $2B including:
the 3 Tower Hotel, Science Museum shaped like a lotus flower & across the road the shopping mall, Conference Center with embedded Casino
all by Saftie

model of the whole development located inside the hotel lobby

 

[fattony]

I can see the casino attracting a disproportionate number of Chinese tourists. Gambling and high-end western brands are both very popular with the Chinese. On the other hand, tourists (Chinese or otherwise) that choose to visit Boston may have a greater interest in the historical and authentic than in our lone casino.

One group you can be sure will patronize the casino are conventioneers. They didn't really pick Boston as their destination and many will have no interest in what is unique to Boston.

 

[SeamusMcFly]

Yes. I was rounding up on that, but I know it came in well above the original $2B dollar price tag. That estimate was assuming to close to double. My finger prints are all over that.

Less so on the Palazzo which more than doubled in cost from it's original price tag of $1B. Which is where the 4 billion numbers comes from on MBS. A number I will stick with as being relatively close to final build. That's also considering construction costs that are far below Boston costs.

900 Million buys you the Bethlehem Sand's casino. A site which didn't involve the huge costs of remediating the former Monsato property. Escalate for 5 more years, and again the added cost of building in Greater Boston as opposed to the Lehigh Valley, and $1.6 billion doesn't buy quite as much as everyone seems to think.

It will be lavish no doubt, but not much beyond what I loosely described.

Any other questions?

 

[SeamusMcFly]

One group you can be sure will patronize the casino are conventioneers.

Bingo on the conventioneers, whether from the BCEC or in house conventions. People who are looking for good food, drinks, and the chance to get laid. Also, who don't want to completely break the bank to do it.

 

[Arlington]

Personally, I think the biggest issue for the mayor is the traffic....I-93 ramps ...morning and evening commutes....evening commute in that area into gridlock, it's going to affect the viability of any future office development....traffic threatens to derail [Sullivan Square Makeover] plans.

Stop it with the rush-hour traffic already.

Partners has commuters. Casinos don't.

Of course, the traffic impact ain't zero, but don't you think that ~$500m to improve every major intersection is going to cover it? Wynn doesn't want his customers stuck in traffic any more than any other business does. Traffic engineers can tell you pretty well when the traffic is going to happen and what it'll take to fix.

The Casino is projected to get about 1 "Boston Garden's Worth" of visitors per weekday (call it ~15k)....except that at a Casino, there's not tipoff time and no buzzer at the end. Garden traffic is bad when it overlaps rush hour, but those people have no choice but to max the local roads: they've got a game to catch.

Casino? 24/7. For the ~15,000 (weekday) to 50,000 (weekend) There's no boss saying "be at your table by 9" or "I expect you here until 6". They sure as heck aren't going to be in the morning rush, and the Casino employees in the AM are probably food service workers who have to get there at 5am to start cooking or 7am to wait tables. Not office jobs.

The Casino will have 4000 employees, but there are 21 shifts in a week, and each one can only work 5 of them. (so maybe 2000 work a peak shift and 500 work off peak). How many in a weekday shift? How many of those shift changes will actually fall at rush time? (many are guest- service type jobs that are *not* 9 to 5)

 

[underground]

On the other hand, tourists (Chinese or otherwise) that choose to visit Boston may have a greater interest in the historical and authentic than in our lone casino.

I saw some study recently about Chinese tourists. Basically said that majority of them only have a limited interest in cultural travel (aka history, food, etc). Cultural travel is mostly a European/American behavior. The issue is the difference historically in trade and travel restrictions. Sorry, can't find it with some cursory googling.

 

[Arlington]

I saw some study recently about Chinese tourists. Basically said that majority of them only have a limited interest in cultural travel (aka history, food, etc)

OK, so what do Chinese tourists do? All's I can think of are:
- Visit family/school chums
- Sea & Ski
- Shop
- Gamble
- Sex, Drugs, Porn

 

[TheRifleman]

Stop it with the rush-hour traffic already.

.Traffic engineers can tell you pretty well when the traffic is going to happen and what it'll take to fix.

I guess LA missed their memo:

Your talking about a 1.6 Billion dollar development casino right next to some of the most brutal rush hour traffic in and out of Boston.

I don't believe 50 or 60 Million is going to solve this.

Not only that we won't have a hard-rail going directly into the area: and the location is not even foot traffic friendly.

YOU HAVE TO DRIVE TO GET THERE.

 

[whighlander]

Yes. I was rounding up on that, but I know it came in well above the original $2B dollar price tag. That estimate was assuming to close to double. My finger prints are all over that.

Less so on the Palazzo which more than doubled in cost from it's original price tag of $1B. Which is where the 4 billion numbers comes from on MBS. A number I will stick with as being relatively close to final build. That's also considering construction costs that are far below Boston costs.

900 Million buys you the Bethlehem Sand's casino. A site which didn't involve the huge costs of remediating the former Monsato property. Escalate for 5 more years, and again the added cost of building in Greater Boston as opposed to the Lehigh Valley, and $1.6 billion doesn't buy quite as much as everyone seems to think.

It will be lavish no doubt, but not much beyond what I loosely described.

Any other questions?

I withdraw my objection on the grounds that while I was just a visitor at an International Conference held in the Palazzo in October 2010 and I had the pleasure of spending a handful of $ in the slots in the casino -- you do seem to know that of which you model