MA Casino Developments

Any person who thinks it is a good idea to drive to this casino at 5:30 on a Friday is a person I look forward to sitting across the poker table from.
 
fattony said:
Any person who thinks it is a good idea to drive to this casino at 5:30 on a Friday is a person I look forward to sitting across the poker table from.
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So basically you shouldn't leave your house from 4-6pm if you live around the community?
 
whighlander said:
I withdraw my objection on the grounds that while I was just a visitor at an International Conference held in the Palazzo in October 2010 and I had the pleasure of spending a handful of $ in the slots in the casino -- you do seem to know that of which you model ;)
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She's a beauty though ain't she. ;)
 
TheRifleman said:
I guess LA missed their memo:

Your talking about a 1.6 Billion dollar development casino right next to some of the most brutal rush hour traffic in and out of Boston.

I don't believe 50 or 60 Million is going to solve this.

Not only that we won't have a hard-rail going directly into the area: and the location is not even foot traffic friendly.

YOU HAVE TO DRIVE TO GET THERE.
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Riff -- Conventioneers often have Busses [not trains] arranged for them, ditto for the working folks who might be parking somewhere else

Looking at the Marina Bay Sands in Singapore as a model -- not a bad model at that since the MBS was at least as isolated as the Wynn Everett from the core city

view from the otherside of the Bay

picture.php


1) traffic generated by the MBS complex did not seem to be an issue

2) at the time I was there if you didn't drive or take a bus -- then you walked in a relatively brutally hot and smoggy environment -- it took me almost one hour to walk from the MBS to the downtown Singapore waterfront [where The Merlion is located] late one evening


3) Full disclosure -- there was a subway extension under construction but not open
 
TheRifleman said:
So basically you shouldn't leave your house from 4-6pm if you live around the community?
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Precisely.

Do you go get groceries, make a dinner reservation, or go see a movie during rush hour? Of course not, there is traffic. You wouldn't get in the car and go to the casino during rush hour either. How hard is this to understand?

Do you get in your car and drive through Sullivan during rush hour to pick up a quart of milk? If you do, maybe that is why you are so frustrated by all the TRAFFIC. The CRUSHING traffics!!!1!!
 
TheRifleman said:
You're talking about a 1.6 Billion dollar development casino right next to some of the most brutal rush hour traffic in and out of Boston.
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Dollars are irrelevant, and square feet nearly so.
Buildings don't commute at rush hour any more than gamblers do.
Neither do foodservice/facility/janitorial/maid workers commute at 9 or 5.
Visitors are coming by choice, not obligation, on their own schedule.

fattony said:
Any person who thinks it is a good idea to drive to this casino at 5:30 on a Friday is a person I look forward to sitting across the poker table from.
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Exactly. They adjust their schedule because they are free to do so and WILL do so (unlike office workers and ticket-holders).

Rife, have you never heard someone say "We'll wait until after rush hour?" or "We'll leave before rush hour?" those are people talking about their leisure trips. If they are free enough to go to a Casino, they'll be free enough to slot themselves onto roads at non-peak times.

I've definitely noticed that retired people--whose trips are all leisure, by definition-- completely redo their circadian rhythms so as to not leave their house until their trip is after AM rush (or something at 7am...before the rush), and to get home before 4pm so as not to drift into the evening rush. And along the way, they also know when school traffic (2:30-3:30) or hospital-shift traffic (4-ish) likely to be out and exactly where it congests, and establish a habit that routes around it.

fattony said:
Do you go get groceries, make a dinner reservation, or go see a movie during rush hour? Of course not, there is traffic...Do you get in your car and drive through Sullivan during rush hour to pick up a quart of milk? If you do, maybe that is why you are so frustrated by all the TRAFFIC. The CRUSHING traffics!!!1!!
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This is also why most retail now opens at 10am--nobody plans a shopping trip for rush hour.
 
Typical service industry shifts start at 7AM, Noon, 4PM and 8PM, plus overnights. This varies a bit depending on the business, but those are basically the shifts. So the staff is likely to not contribute to traffic at all.

And as noted, no one is going to go to a casino at rush hour. Ever. Because stupid.


Sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo stop with the traffic already. Wynn is basically paying for Sullivan Square to get fixed properly, even though the loads his casino will bring (120 guests per hour about?) is negligible compared to just about everything else around.
 
davem said:
Typical service industry shifts start at 7AM, Noon, 4PM and 8PM, plus overnights. This varies a bit depending on the business, but those are basically the shifts. So the staff is likely to not contribute to traffic at all.

And as noted, no one is going to go to a casino at rush hour. Ever. Because stupid.


Sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo stop with the traffic already. Wynn is basically paying for Sullivan Square to get fixed properly, even though the loads his casino will bring (120 guests per hour about?) is negligible compared to just about everything else around.
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There already is a plan in place to fix Sullivan Square properly, by replacing the rotary with a street grid. Problem is, that plan will probably slightly reduce the car capacity, so it's probably out the window now.. So how exactly is Wynn going to cram all those extra cars through here? There aren't any signal timing changes that would help at this location. The only other solution is the old standbys, more lanes and more ramps... exactly what we're trying to move past.

I think they'll be a few more than 120 people an hour coming here as well, otherwise it's going to look like Atlantic City. Arlington quoted 15,000 on weekdays and 50,000 on weekends.. basically a Patriots game worth of traffic descending on my neighborhood every Saturday and Sunday.
 
Gillette seats about 69,000. 50,000 estimated casino visits a weekend means 25,000 per weekend day, so actually about a third of a Patriots game worth of traffic every Saturday and Sunday, and it'll be spread out over the course of the day.

And I don't think they'll get anywhere near that estimation.
 
whsurveyor said:
There already is a plan in place to fix Sullivan Square properly, by replacing the rotary with a street grid. Problem is, that plan will probably slightly reduce the car capacity, so it's probably out the window now.. So how exactly is Wynn going to cram all those extra cars through here? There aren't any signal timing changes that would help at this location. The only other solution is the old standbys, more lanes and more ramps... exactly what we're trying to move past.

I think they'll be a few more than 120 people an hour coming here as well, otherwise it's going to look like Atlantic City. Arlington quoted 15,000 on weekdays and 50,000 on weekends.. basically a Patriots game worth of traffic descending on my neighborhood every Saturday and Sunday.
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I missed a 0, I ment 1200. Also, I was alluding to the fact that Wynn is paying for the Sullivan Square redesign to happen. Where were the funds allotted for it before? IIRC, there were none. It was just a nice plan. If you don't want to see a zillion extra lanes then go battle with MassDOT and the BTD for a few months on end. Talk to Matthew about it, he just did with the Pike interchange.

It's kind of amazing you read Arlington's post but missed the point:
Arlington said:
Stop it with the rush-hour traffic already.

Partners has commuters. Casinos don't.

....except that at a Casino, there's not tipoff time and no buzzer at the end. Garden traffic is bad when it overlaps rush hour, but those people have no choice but to max the local roads: they've got a game to catch.

Casino? 24/7. For the ~15,000 (weekday) to 50,000 (weekend) There's no boss saying "be at your table by 9" or "I expect you here until 6". They sure as heck aren't going to be in the morning rush, and the Casino employees in the AM are probably food service workers who have to get there at 5am to start cooking or 7am to wait tables. Not office jobs.
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(emphasis mine)
 
whsurveyor said:
There already is a plan in place to fix Sullivan Square properly, by replacing the rotary with a street grid. Problem is, that plan will probably slightly reduce the car capacity, so it's probably out the window now.. So how exactly is Wynn going to cram all those extra cars through here? There aren't any signal timing changes that would help at this location. The only other solution is the old standbys, more lanes and more ramps... exactly what we're trying to move past.
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This is my biggest fear for the casino - that it will trump Sullivan getting urbanized.
 
Not exactly the pats since its spread across the day without specific be there now Windows. Of course people were thrilled about 25,000 soccer hooligans showing up at specific times in this same area.
 
whsurveyor said:
I think they'll be a few more than 120 people an hour coming here as well, otherwise it's going to look like Atlantic City. Arlington quoted 15,000 on weekdays and 50,000 on weekends.. basically a Patriots game worth of traffic descending on my neighborhood every Saturday and Sunday.
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Some people should not be allowed near a calculator Ap

MOS draws 1.6 M visitors per year
MFA draws 1.2 M visitors per year

with a lot of each crowds being on Friday PM through Sunday PM + Christmas Week + February Vacation Week + Spring Vacation Week

Assuming that the nearly 3M museum visitors to the two were equally distributed over the 362 or so days when the museums are open == 8287.3 people per day
Assuming that 80% of the attendance [2.4 M] is on 120 days [weekends + school vacations] == 20,000 people per day

Those numbers don't seem to create impossible burdens on the local traffic

Nor even do the nearly 20 Million annual visitors to Faneuil Hall / Quincy Market
4. Faneuil Hall Marketplace, Boston, MA

Faneuil Hall Marketplace, one of the most popular tourist destinations, which gets 20 million visitors, encompasses four historic places in one location — Faneuil Hall, Quincy Market, North Market and South Market, all set around a quaint cobblestone promenade where jugglers, magicians and musicians entertain the visitors.
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http://yabbedoo.wordpress.com/2011/04/21/top-25-most-visited-tourist-destinations-in-america/

using the MOS + MFA models for flows
20M over 362 days == 55,248.6 people per day
16M over 120 days == 133,333.3 people per day -- note this is 2X Gillette Stadia per day

so let's not obsess on the traffic that a casino in Everett will generate
 
lexicon506 said:
Apparently Wynn is doing a complete redesign, a condition set when the Gaming Commission awarded him the license. According to Wynn, the new casino design will be "a gaming palace the likes of which has never been seen before in any city or country."

http://www.bostonherald.com/business/business_markets/2014/10/wynn_new_casino_redesign_dramatic
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Wish this was a bit more reassuring. A redesign could take things from the frying pan into the fire. A 30 story Pilgrim hat (Puritan hotel in-the-round)? A buckle shoe-shaped shopping atria? Something progressively modern and firmly rooted in the 21st century gets my vote.
 
Depending on the setting, there are a lot of numbers to work with. Wynn Claims 7 million visits per year. But really the numbers vary widely (range per year and the weekend/weekday mix)

I took the high end of most estimates and they still look workable.

50k per Sat /Sun = 5.2m per year (50k x 104 Sat/Suns)
15k per Weekday = 3.9m per year (15k x 261 weekdays)

If Wynn actually sustained the numbers I used, he'd have 9.1m visitors per year. So I'm taking something like a "worst case" weekday and a "worst case" weekend. They can't be both right (in a good way).

If the Weekend number and Annual number are right, weekdays end up being just 7k per weekday. So estimate weekdays at 7k to 15k per day. (I'm going to use 12k, below, 'cause the math is easy)

If the Weekday and Annual numbers are right, weekends only need to be 30k to hit the annual projection. So say each weekend day does between 25k and 50k.

The Zakim Bridge processes 16,000 inbound vehicles (carrying 24,000 persons in the AM Rush (6am-10am)

In I-93's rush, 16,000 vehicles make 4,000 vehicles per hour inbound.

Now let's do the Casino:

Take a middle value of 12,000 persons per Casino weekday as if they were commuters
8,000 vehicles

Halve that to consider 2x vehicle occupancy (couples, not SOV commuters)
4,000 vehicles

Split them by arrival direction
1600 from the North
400 from the East (Rt 1/Airport)
400 from the West (Storrow)
1600 from the South & Pike

I'm going to assume there's some kind of peak arrival time, maybe 7pm or 8pm when "dates" and conventioneers arrive. Let's assume that half of a days traffic arrives (or tries to) in this hour:

Vehicle Arrivals at peak hour
800 from the North
200 from the East (Rt 1/Airport)
200 from the West (Storrow)
800 from the South & Pike

That looks bad, but it is also wrong. Probably 50% will get there on the shoulders of the peak hour, so the peak is down to:

Vehicle Arrivals at peak hour
400 from the North
100 from the East (Rt 1/Airport)
100 from the West (Storrow)
400 from the South & Pike

25% of the day's traffic in 1 hour, and 50% in 2 hours, and 2,000 vehicles will be added to a 3,500 space garage in those 2 hours.

Please note: the more you try to make the peak look bad, the whole rest of the day looks absurdly tame. Try to make it look "busy all day" and instead the hourly numbers all settle pretty low.

If the peak is "supposed to be" that peaky it increases the odds that Wynn will nudge it away from Rush Hour, by skewing dinner reservations and showtime starts (staggering them, even).

Assuming half of all traffic arrives in some 2 hour period Here's what the *other* 10 hours of the "waking/non-rush" day look like to handle the other 2000 cars per weekday:

Vehicle Arrivals in a non-peak hour
80 from the North
20 from the East (Rt 1/Airport)
20 from the West (Storrow)
80 from the South & Pike

(200 per hour across 10 hours)

Back to that peak. Would even 400 vehicles/hour kill I-93 (and its ramps, feeders and arterials) that can handle 4,000 per hour? 10% more at rush hour would be devastating (a straw that breaks the camel's back), but we're saying Casino Rush time occurs when 93 congestion has melted away.

You could double or quadruple these numbers per weekend, but then you also have to spread them over 2x to 4x as many peak hours (Matinee? Nightcap?) and you end up back with the same manageable loads.
 
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I think your also over representing the logic on the other side of the traffic will be nonstop gridlock side. But great analysis.
 
^ Thanks. For 4,000 full-time-equivalent (FTE) employees, they have to be divided in a by-definition 40-hour weeks across a 168-hour 24/7 schedule. So about 1,000 staff at any given hour, but perhaps 2,000 are needed for a weekend day and only 500 overnight.

Even at a 2,000 or 4,000 to staff a "peak hour", They're probably staggered across different shifts if only because their jobs are so different (Food Service vs Security vs Janitor vs Hotel vs Gaming). These, I just don't see adding up to a big rush at any one moment, and probably disproportionately using transit and casino shuttles.
 
What happens if their is an A-List entertainer playing that weekend at Wynns Casino:
Like some boyband, Beiber---This is not a NorthStation Centralized location

I guess if you live in the area you should go away those weekends.
 
TheRifleman said:
What happens if their is an A-List entertainer playing that weekend at Wynns Casino
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What happens if they play the Garden on a weekend? Mostly, I'd imagine that infrastructure built to handle a weekday rush hour is going to handle such events with ease on a weekend. I'm not promising you won't have a "Oh, there must be a show at Wynn's" moment...you probably will, but it will be short and not painful and not any worse than all the other things that happen in a Free Country, like the "Oh, everyone's going to Assembly for a movie" (whose start times aren't all that staggered...none is A-list but they all add up) moment.

But even moreso at a Casino, the whole point of such shows is to get people to arrive early before the show (some gamble, some dine, some arrive even earlier and do both) and stay late after. The Casino is able to "spread the peak" more effectively than the Garden can.
 
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