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MassDOT Pike Parcels 12 - 15 | Boylston St. and Mass. Ave | Back Bay
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stellarfun
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Re: MassDOT Pike Parcels 12 - 15 | Boylston St. + Mass. Ave
He may mean that financing can be found for residential/retail/hotel, but not for a 500,000 sq ft commercial office tower with no tenant signed up.
He may mean that financing can be found for residential/retail/hotel, but not for a 500,000 sq ft commercial office tower with no tenant signed up.
palindrome
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Re: MassDOT Pike Parcels 12 - 15 | Boylston St. + Mass. Ave
Weiner's made it explicitly clear in public that they use the height---clustered over terra firm---to finance decking and the lower portions. Take either parcel away and the project isn't viable.
FTR, I think they have a fantastic concept. I can quibble about design and materials but they did their research and have a concept that moves the neighborhood forward while respecting what was there in the first half of the 20th century.
P12: Hate that the design is the same old same old, but the massing is effective. The Mass Ave wing is easy to construct and preserves views of the idiot whiners in the Gehry building, who seemingly thought nothing would never ever in a million years be developed in the giant open space to the south and west of their idiot fucking condo building. (Talk about people who should not have been approved for a mortage. Didn't they do due diligence or even the little bit of googling of their address before buying? Oy!) To briv's point, I think another floor or so could be added before it's all over. More importantly, as the Weiner building turns west onto Boylston and hits terra firma it restores streetwall* that was there until the turnpike extension, abeit at slightly higher height. Nothing unmanageable though, since the shadow impact will be felt over the pike.
P15 is also pretty genius massing, though again, I could do without the ode to Back Bay in modern materials. All these fucking buildings with "bay-esque" elements look like they have vericose veins. If it's not going to be individual "buildings" via finishes the way we were promised at the Mandarin poopstain, then embrace the bigness of it, and do something classically proportioned. 855 Boylston St, the Darth Vader building, the Nike building. They all try and pay homage to the charm of the neighborhood but just look like poseurs. Though I do like the tribute the corner cap pays to the top of the Hynes.
The massing is very good and is a nice transition from Hynes's height, to Berklee's tower's setback, and down to Mass Ave and East Fenway. The tower is to be supported mostly on the garden plot where they can do deep piles without mass disruption of rail and vehicular traffic. Their engineer talked about minimal night-time closures to drill additional piles for the deck within the existing barriers between E/W turnpike and the train tracks. The shadow is slim N/S and/or shares it's impact in Berklee's approved tower on the corner. (Though I bet the Tennis & Racquet Club guy is jumping mad. He has some nutty plan to build a 12-storey tower in the courtyard parking lot behind the building. Berklee and Samuels drop shadows all over his building.)
I haven't been able to attend recent CAC meetings and can't determine how they deal with the tunnel issue. Perhaps a gentleman's agreement with Trinity's development on P13 to distribute costs across all three sites? (Trinity was careful to design open space at Mass Ave to technically allow it to remain a bridge, but I think that was contingent on nothing being covered on parcel 15.) The other clever thing Samuels/Weiner did was include parcel 14 in their proposal, but in a way that allows the Hynes loading ramp to be reconfigured to the benefit of Hynes, the P15 project, and the Berklee project. They essentially landbanked for whoever goes forward first. If you recall, Berklee relies on displacing parcel 14 in order to reorient their concert hall and have the main entrance off of Boylston.
I thought Trinity had effectively abandoned work on their proposal for 12. At the CAC where they presented, they were much farther along with the building on 13 and the BAC presentation implied funding discussions were going well.
I'm not surprised Carpenter dropped out. Getting a deal with the people from Auditorium Garage was pie-in-the-sky. There's something like 30 different parties to negotiate with, and some of them are apparently families. Nightmare.
Chiofaro's project felt doomed despite his advantage with the Pru rights. It was a project that, alone, might have gotten a nod in the name of jobs and incremental progress, but it pales against the much better Samuels/Wiener proposal.
This intersection will be hell with construction for the next 15 years but it will really knit things back together.
*For those who don't know, Harold Brown's minions are working on a project to restore a building to their parking lot just west of P12. Last I heard it was a 4-5 storey residential housing, not condos. This would close that block back up, finally.
Weiner's made it explicitly clear in public that they use the height---clustered over terra firm---to finance decking and the lower portions. Take either parcel away and the project isn't viable.
FTR, I think they have a fantastic concept. I can quibble about design and materials but they did their research and have a concept that moves the neighborhood forward while respecting what was there in the first half of the 20th century.
P12: Hate that the design is the same old same old, but the massing is effective. The Mass Ave wing is easy to construct and preserves views of the idiot whiners in the Gehry building, who seemingly thought nothing would never ever in a million years be developed in the giant open space to the south and west of their idiot fucking condo building. (Talk about people who should not have been approved for a mortage. Didn't they do due diligence or even the little bit of googling of their address before buying? Oy!) To briv's point, I think another floor or so could be added before it's all over. More importantly, as the Weiner building turns west onto Boylston and hits terra firma it restores streetwall* that was there until the turnpike extension, abeit at slightly higher height. Nothing unmanageable though, since the shadow impact will be felt over the pike.
P15 is also pretty genius massing, though again, I could do without the ode to Back Bay in modern materials. All these fucking buildings with "bay-esque" elements look like they have vericose veins. If it's not going to be individual "buildings" via finishes the way we were promised at the Mandarin poopstain, then embrace the bigness of it, and do something classically proportioned. 855 Boylston St, the Darth Vader building, the Nike building. They all try and pay homage to the charm of the neighborhood but just look like poseurs. Though I do like the tribute the corner cap pays to the top of the Hynes.
The massing is very good and is a nice transition from Hynes's height, to Berklee's tower's setback, and down to Mass Ave and East Fenway. The tower is to be supported mostly on the garden plot where they can do deep piles without mass disruption of rail and vehicular traffic. Their engineer talked about minimal night-time closures to drill additional piles for the deck within the existing barriers between E/W turnpike and the train tracks. The shadow is slim N/S and/or shares it's impact in Berklee's approved tower on the corner. (Though I bet the Tennis & Racquet Club guy is jumping mad. He has some nutty plan to build a 12-storey tower in the courtyard parking lot behind the building. Berklee and Samuels drop shadows all over his building.)
I haven't been able to attend recent CAC meetings and can't determine how they deal with the tunnel issue. Perhaps a gentleman's agreement with Trinity's development on P13 to distribute costs across all three sites? (Trinity was careful to design open space at Mass Ave to technically allow it to remain a bridge, but I think that was contingent on nothing being covered on parcel 15.) The other clever thing Samuels/Weiner did was include parcel 14 in their proposal, but in a way that allows the Hynes loading ramp to be reconfigured to the benefit of Hynes, the P15 project, and the Berklee project. They essentially landbanked for whoever goes forward first. If you recall, Berklee relies on displacing parcel 14 in order to reorient their concert hall and have the main entrance off of Boylston.
I thought Trinity had effectively abandoned work on their proposal for 12. At the CAC where they presented, they were much farther along with the building on 13 and the BAC presentation implied funding discussions were going well.
I'm not surprised Carpenter dropped out. Getting a deal with the people from Auditorium Garage was pie-in-the-sky. There's something like 30 different parties to negotiate with, and some of them are apparently families. Nightmare.
Chiofaro's project felt doomed despite his advantage with the Pru rights. It was a project that, alone, might have gotten a nod in the name of jobs and incremental progress, but it pales against the much better Samuels/Wiener proposal.
This intersection will be hell with construction for the next 15 years but it will really knit things back together.
*For those who don't know, Harold Brown's minions are working on a project to restore a building to their parking lot just west of P12. Last I heard it was a 4-5 storey residential housing, not condos. This would close that block back up, finally.
whighlander
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Re: MassDOT Pike Parcels 12 - 15 | Boylston St. + Mass. Ave
BBF -- " *For those who don't know, Harold Brown's minions are working on a project to restore a building to their parking lot just west of P12. Last I heard it was a 4-5 storey residential housing, not condos. This would close that block back up, finally. "
Where is that located relative to the Ghery building and the old Bank that became the Berkley Performance Center
PS: I thought that Harold Brown was past caring about earthly things or am I thinking of another mega-landlord?
BBF -- " *For those who don't know, Harold Brown's minions are working on a project to restore a building to their parking lot just west of P12. Last I heard it was a 4-5 storey residential housing, not condos. This would close that block back up, finally. "
Where is that located relative to the Ghery building and the old Bank that became the Berkley Performance Center
PS: I thought that Harold Brown was past caring about earthly things or am I thinking of another mega-landlord?
Re: MassDOT Pike Parcels 12 - 15 | Boylston St. + Mass. Ave
@justin I don't work for Samuels/Weiner, just repeating what they said: the development was designed as a comprehensive opportunity. 12 and 14/15 or bust. I don't know how their financing is aligning.
To technically answer though, actually yes. P12 has minimal decking v- terra firma construction. I think the engineer said only 3 piles. The building over the pike creates a solid streetwall between Boylston and the extension for the first time. This nicely aligns with the BRAs fetish to commercialize Mass Ave north of Newbury and out the extension. (Which I think is completely wrong. Leave small business that cater to neighbors and let the area evolve organically. Why artificially inflate prices if the only places that will afford to come in are fucking chain restaurants and the Gap?)
Sorry. The Mass Ave side is a visual trick. Loading is from Boylston, BOH storage is on the Boylston side. It's a fairly shallow retail experience over the pike. The bulk of construction is on Boylston, on ground.
@whigh It's the lot east of 1091 Boylston. I last saw Harold a few months ago. He moves a lot slower but he's still full of piss and vinegar, still buying property. They just bought 885 Boylston, better known as Whiskey's, and the building next to Daisy's on Newbury, which is being redeveloped into a restaurant/retail and condos upstairs. Still very involved with his lieutenants.
@justin I don't work for Samuels/Weiner, just repeating what they said: the development was designed as a comprehensive opportunity. 12 and 14/15 or bust. I don't know how their financing is aligning.
To technically answer though, actually yes. P12 has minimal decking v- terra firma construction. I think the engineer said only 3 piles. The building over the pike creates a solid streetwall between Boylston and the extension for the first time. This nicely aligns with the BRAs fetish to commercialize Mass Ave north of Newbury and out the extension. (Which I think is completely wrong. Leave small business that cater to neighbors and let the area evolve organically. Why artificially inflate prices if the only places that will afford to come in are fucking chain restaurants and the Gap?)
Sorry. The Mass Ave side is a visual trick. Loading is from Boylston, BOH storage is on the Boylston side. It's a fairly shallow retail experience over the pike. The bulk of construction is on Boylston, on ground.
@whigh It's the lot east of 1091 Boylston. I last saw Harold a few months ago. He moves a lot slower but he's still full of piss and vinegar, still buying property. They just bought 885 Boylston, better known as Whiskey's, and the building next to Daisy's on Newbury, which is being redeveloped into a restaurant/retail and condos upstairs. Still very involved with his lieutenants.
Ron Newman
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Re: MassDOT Pike Parcels 12 - 15 | Boylston St. + Mass. Ave
What is BOH? Does this proposal preserve or demolish the bank building?
And I thought Berklee was the designated developer of this area?
What is BOH? Does this proposal preserve or demolish the bank building?
And I thought Berklee was the designated developer of this area?
TheRifleman
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Re: MassDOT Pike Parcels 12 - 15 | Boylston St. + Mass. Ave
So what happens when PRU says NO to the air rights on Parcel 15? Does that mean Samuels/Weiner can't build?
So Chiofaro project gets the nod, then what happens to Parcel 12-14.
Seems like a stalemate. Too many interests involved to get anything done with these parcels.
All the projects seemed Doom. Chiofaro has the advantage because he only wants to build on Parcel 15 which Pru has the air rights too.
So Samuels/Weiner should just redevelop Parcel 12-14.
I don't see this happening.
So what happens when PRU says NO to the air rights on Parcel 15? Does that mean Samuels/Weiner can't build?
So Chiofaro project gets the nod, then what happens to Parcel 12-14.
Seems like a stalemate. Too many interests involved to get anything done with these parcels.
All the projects seemed Doom. Chiofaro has the advantage because he only wants to build on Parcel 15 which Pru has the air rights too.
So Samuels/Weiner should just redevelop Parcel 12-14.
I don't see this happening.
Re: MassDOT Pike Parcels 12 - 15 | Boylston St. + Mass. Ave
@rifle
"Committee co-chair Meg Mainzer-Cohen said the Weiner/Samuels plan best meets goals the city adopted in 2000 for the project."
If she's willing to be quoted in the Herald, that means Greely's done his homework with the Pru real estate arm. One of the CAC members outright asked the Prudential rep if Chiofaro doesn't get the nod, will they play fair with the winner. The guy seemed wildly unprepared for the question and blurted out a yes.
@Ron, BOH means back of house for offices, warehouse and the like. I don't know what you're asking with the bank building. Parcel 12 is diagonal across the street.
@rifle
"Committee co-chair Meg Mainzer-Cohen said the Weiner/Samuels plan best meets goals the city adopted in 2000 for the project."
If she's willing to be quoted in the Herald, that means Greely's done his homework with the Pru real estate arm. One of the CAC members outright asked the Prudential rep if Chiofaro doesn't get the nod, will they play fair with the winner. The guy seemed wildly unprepared for the question and blurted out a yes.
@Ron, BOH means back of house for offices, warehouse and the like. I don't know what you're asking with the bank building. Parcel 12 is diagonal across the street.
stellarfun
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Re: MassDOT Pike Parcels 12 - 15 | Boylston St. + Mass. Ave
Way back when I got my expert badge in rifle, when someone would simply turn and fire without aiming, just fire away, it was termed 'John Wayneing it'.
The BRA has an extensive list of presentations, meeting minutes, Q&As put to the various bidders, etc., at the link below. It's fairly current.
http://www.bostonredevelopmentautho...nitsIndividual.asp?action=ViewInit&InitID=155
Would never want anyone to weave elaborate, Rasputin-on-the-Neva conspiracies from sparse evidence.
LOL
Way back when I got my expert badge in rifle, when someone would simply turn and fire without aiming, just fire away, it was termed 'John Wayneing it'.
The BRA has an extensive list of presentations, meeting minutes, Q&As put to the various bidders, etc., at the link below. It's fairly current.
http://www.bostonredevelopmentautho...nitsIndividual.asp?action=ViewInit&InitID=155
Would never want anyone to weave elaborate, Rasputin-on-the-Neva conspiracies from sparse evidence.
TheRifleman
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Re: MassDOT Pike Parcels 12 - 15 | Boylston St. + Mass. Ave
bbfen, didn't mean to attack you in my blog. Nothing personal I was just seeing how this could really play out since commercial development seems to be a cutthroat industry.
Also looking at both plans Samuels idea for the area is more intriguing but both developers are working with different parcels which poses a problem for everybody's interests.
Its not just like Oh I like that proposal over that developers proposal on the same Parcel.
Thanks for the information on the project.
bbfen, didn't mean to attack you in my blog. Nothing personal I was just seeing how this could really play out since commercial development seems to be a cutthroat industry.
Also looking at both plans Samuels idea for the area is more intriguing but both developers are working with different parcels which poses a problem for everybody's interests.
Its not just like Oh I like that proposal over that developers proposal on the same Parcel.
Thanks for the information on the project.
Re: MassDOT Pike Parcels 12 - 15 | Boylston St. + Mass. Ave
It's okay I didn't take it personally. We just disagree about the power Prudential has and 1. I think it's minimal and 2. I think it's been dealt with a paper bag of cash already.
Remember, this isn't a standard City of Boston project. The CAC was constituted by the BRA on behalf of the old Turnpike Authority, now MassDOT and the Commonwealth because the project boundaries are within city limits and a CAC is the mechanism for public input in development in Boston. I'm betting MassDOT is ultimately more powerful than the Mayor's office/BRA, and MassDOT wants the project. The neighborhood wants the project*. The CAC wants the project. The unions want the project.
There are lots of variables though, so we'll see what happens.
*When I say the neighborhood, I exclude the usual cranks, but Samuels/Weiner has generally been liked.
It's okay I didn't take it personally. We just disagree about the power Prudential has and 1. I think it's minimal and 2. I think it's been dealt with a paper bag of cash already.
Remember, this isn't a standard City of Boston project. The CAC was constituted by the BRA on behalf of the old Turnpike Authority, now MassDOT and the Commonwealth because the project boundaries are within city limits and a CAC is the mechanism for public input in development in Boston. I'm betting MassDOT is ultimately more powerful than the Mayor's office/BRA, and MassDOT wants the project. The neighborhood wants the project*. The CAC wants the project. The unions want the project.
There are lots of variables though, so we'll see what happens.
*When I say the neighborhood, I exclude the usual cranks, but Samuels/Weiner has generally been liked.
JohnCostello
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Re: MassDOT Pike Parcels 12 - 15 | Boylston St. + Mass. Ave
Marty Walz retires and this gets initial approvals. Hmmmnnnn.
Marty Walz retires and this gets initial approvals. Hmmmnnnn.
Ron Newman
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Re: MassDOT Pike Parcels 12 - 15 | Boylston St. + Mass. Ave
I hope the former bank building at the southeast corner will remain?
I hope the former bank building at the southeast corner will remain?
Re: MassDOT Pike Parcels 12 - 15 | Boylston St. + Mass. Ave
Pretty low rent. I get that this is a good thing, and I'm happy to hear about it. But maybe they could have tossed ADA-ification of Hynes Convention Center in the package? That's a win-win really.
Pretty low rent. I get that this is a good thing, and I'm happy to hear about it. But maybe they could have tossed ADA-ification of Hynes Convention Center in the package? That's a win-win really.