MBTA Red Line / Blue Line Connector

Rover said:
I'm all for aspiring for a robust transit solution, but as we found out in the 2016 elections sometimes settling for half a loaf is better than the alternative which in that case was getting the loaf shoved you know where sideways. Red to Blue unless Amazon is pushing for it as a condition for locating here has a problem in that you can already get from point A (blue line) to point B (red line) merely by making one extra stop. That's an inconvenience, but the connection exists. That limits the amount of $$$ the public and state is going to be willing to blow on this project since the vast majority of voters and politicians aren't affected by it.
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In addition to the Red and Blue Lines, the Green and Orange Lines also suffer because the Red and Blue aren't connected. As it is currently, everyone who wants to connect Red and Blue has to traverse through the already overcrowded central transfer stations at Park/GC/DTX/State, and take the already overcrowded Orange or Green through the core. Connecting Red and Blue directly simplifies things for those transfer passengers, but it also simplifies things for everyone else (all the non Red-Blue transfer passeners) by taking the Red-Blue transfers out of the mess on the platforms at Park/GC/DTX/State.

And a cut-and-cover Blue Line extension to Charles MGH from the existing tunnel at Joy Street would be relatively simple and inexpensive (as far as urban transit projects go).

tysmith95 said:
I think a NSRL with a central station that connects to the blue line is a better option and could solve many of the regions transit issues. It would be more expensive though.
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These are totally unrelated projects of totally different magnitudes. It's not an "either or."
 
JumboBuc said:
In addition to the Red and Blue Lines, the Green and Orange Lines also suffer because the Red and Blue aren't connected. As it is currently, everyone who wants to connect Red and Blue has to traverse through the already overcrowded central transfer stations at Park/GC/DTX/State, and take the already overcrowded Orange or Green through the core. Connecting Red and Blue directly simplifies things for those transfer passengers, but it also simplifies things for everyone else (all the non Red-Blue transfer passeners) by taking the Red-Blue transfers out of the mess on the platforms at Park/GC/DTX/State.

And a cut-and-cover Blue Line extension to Charles MGH from the existing tunnel at Joy Street would be relatively simple and inexpensive (as far as urban transit projects go).
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Thanks for that clear rebuttal Jumbo. Red-Blue pays dividends for all the people riding all the subway lines through downtown. It arguably even helps the people who never come near downtown by improving OTP for all trains.
 
I think if you connected the blue line to an NSRL central station you would need to connect the blue line to the red line even more. A blue red connection is important for the whole system. We have a hub spoke model interconnection between lines is already limited, that two lines don't meet overloads the few other connecting stations. I also am wondering if the silverline to chelsea will increase blue line usage.
 
coleslaw said:
I think if you connected the blue line to an NSRL central station you would need to connect the blue line to the red line even more. A blue red connection is important for the whole system. We have a hub spoke model interconnection between lines is already limited, that two lines don't meet overloads the few other connecting stations. I also am wondering if the silverline to chelsea will increase blue line usage.
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My impressions from living in Chelsea and riding the 116/117 for 5 years: SL3 will definitely bump up ridership at Airport and maybe slightly ease crowding at Maverick, but I don't expect it to be a direct net gain for the BL itself, just redistributed trips. Most of those trips prior to SL3 would have been on the 116/117 to Maverick (BL). SL3 relieves those routes primarily.
 
coleslaw said:
I think if you connected the blue line to an NSRL central station you would need to connect the blue line to the red line even more. A blue red connection is important for the whole system. We have a hub spoke model interconnection between lines is already limited, that two lines don't meet overloads the few other connecting stations. I also am wondering if the silverline to chelsea will increase blue line usage.
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You could also connect the blue to NSRL @ North Station and then continue to either Charles or Kendall - and thereby eliminate the cost of a separate NSRL Central Station
 
The central station on the NSRL is kind of pointless (at least looking at the placements of South and North Station unders) - and if the main benefit of it is for the Blue Line connection, it seems like it would be vastly cheaper to just do the Blue Line to MGH connector that the central station.
 
bakgwailo said:
The central station on the NSRL is kind of pointless (at least looking at the placements of South and North Station unders) - and if the main benefit of it is for the Blue Line connection, it seems like it would be vastly cheaper to just do the Blue Line to MGH connector that the central station.
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Exactly.
 
bakgwailo said:
The central station on the NSRL is kind of pointless (at least looking at the placements of South and North Station unders) - and if the main benefit of it is for the Blue Line connection, it seems like it would be vastly cheaper to just do the Blue Line to MGH connector that the central station.
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I actually don't agree with this if the intention is to future proof the network.

If Suffolk Downs and other points north on the Blue line become major employment centers (Amazon, 50,000 employees, for example), we need Blue connected directly to North and West/South Commuter rail to feed that employment center. (Allows people to live all around the city and still get to jobs there, without further clogging downtown connection chokeholds.)
Red has direct connections to South/West side commuter rail.
Orange has connections to North and some West side commuter rail.
Green has connection to North side commuter rail.
Silver has connection to South and West side commuter rail.

Blue has no connections to commuter rail.

Red-Blue Connection does not do help that missing link. Red-Blue and Central Station serve different network connection defects.
 
I personally don't see us winning the Amazon bid anymore (although I think we are as close as anyone could get vs DC), and Amazon just announced a 2k employee build out in the Seaport. I would guess Suffolk Downs and Wonderland will be more housing centric that business centers - we already have 5-6 business centers across Boston and Cambridge, with the Seaport still being built out.

Plus, I think the only chance we have in building the NSRL is it not having the central station along with its cost. I don't mind if they do a bit of provisioning/planning to ensure a central station could be built later, though, if demand/need arises.
 
Ditching North Station and Central Station in lieu of a Union Station that connects to both Aquarium and Haymarket is probably the better bet for giving the Blue Line a direct link to the regional rail system.

Ari posted some articles on the Red-Blue connector recently, extending it to Kendall Square. I would like to hear some thoughts on:

1. Where those proposed extensions of the Blue Line from Kendall would go and how a Grand Junction extension would work out.
2. The usefulness of an extension across the river versus a riverbank extension.

Because extending it to Kendall seems fine but hampers the potential riverbank extension which I have been fond of for quite a while.
 
BussesAin'tTrains said:
^ A humble suggestion to hold discussion of Ari's musing in the Crazy Transit Pitches thread.
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F-Line didn't immediately dismiss it in the comments, FWIW, though he did say the fill of the former Broad Canal would pose a threat to the feasibility and tweaking the alignment runs the risk of increased costs through dense Kendall Square. I'd say it needs an official, in-depth study before any final conclusions can be made about this being crazy. To quote F-line, "not optimistic, but give it a shot."
 
A combined North/Central station would be too far from either Haymarket (better location) or Aquarium to be a useful transfer; it's a pretty far walk and the trains aren't that long.

But with the Blue Line you don't really need a connection to the greater commuter rail network now that the Silver Line will get you there. If Suffolk Downs is to be redeveloped a FAR cheaper alternative would be a new infill station on the Newbury Branch at Revere Beach Parkway and Winthrop St with a shuttle bus or redirected bus line. Past that the Blue Line runs close enough to the CR that you don't need a fancy connection. Besides anyone taking the Blue Line doesn't need to get the CR in the first place, that's what the BL is for!
 
stefalarchitect said:
F-Line didn't immediately dismiss it in the comments, FWIW, though he did say the fill of the former Broad Canal would pose a threat to the feasibility and tweaking the alignment runs the risk of increased costs through dense Kendall Square. I'd say it needs an official, in-depth study before any final conclusions can be made about this being crazy. To quote F-line, "not optimistic, but give it a shot."
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I wasn't trying to dismiss Ari's work as "crazy", just suggesting that this thread stay for official Red-Blue @ Charles/MGH. Crazy Transit Pitches is just a good catchall for unofficial MBTA expansion conversations. Put a thoughtful reply to Joe there myself. Could also make a new thread for BLXs in "Design a Better Boston".
 
vanshnookenraggen said:
A combined North/Central station would be too far from either Haymarket (better location) or Aquarium to be a useful transfer; it's a pretty far walk and the trains aren't that long.

But with the Blue Line you don't really need a connection to the greater commuter rail network now that the Silver Line will get you there. If Suffolk Downs is to be redeveloped a FAR cheaper alternative would be a new infill station on the Newbury Branch at Revere Beach Parkway and Winthrop St with a shuttle bus or redirected bus line. Past that the Blue Line runs close enough to the CR that you don't need a fancy connection. Besides anyone taking the Blue Line doesn't need to get the CR in the first place, that's what the BL is for!
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Pray tell where the Silver Line connects to the northern commuter rail network?
 
JeffDowntown said:
-Blue Connection does not do help that missing link. Red-Blue and Central Station serve different network connection defects.
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Very true.

Two justifications for a 3rd core station (Central) are:
1) spreading commuter on/off transactions across 3 platforms instead of 2 (kinda why we still have a separate Park and DTX), and the additional (admittedly small) benefit of a Blue transfer

2) Creating 3 distinct cross-platform connection patterns:
- NS for North-North V-shaped trips (an "in" and an "out")
- CS for Through, linear trips (from one "through" to another "through")
- SS for South-South V-shaped trips (an "in" and an "out")
 
JeffDowntown said:
OK, One North Line.

Not the same as connecting to all the North Lines, enabling a feeder network.
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I don't disagree and chelsea as well as everett have the density to support heavy rail (14,000+ per sq mile in chelsea, 11,000 per sq mile in everett), rapid bus and a commuter rail connection to one line isn't enough.
 
Arlington said:
Two justifications for a 3rd core station (Central) are:
1) spreading commuter on/off transactions across 3 platforms instead of 2 (kinda why we still have a separate Park and DTX), and the additional (admittedly small) benefit of a Blue transfer
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But there is nothing around Aquarium that would draw a large enough ridership to reduce crowding at South Station, and nothing planned. South Station IS the destination of most CR riders, Back Bay second, and the North Station/Haymarket will be third once the new office space starts to come on line (SBW falls under South Station).

2) Creating 3 distinct cross-platform connection patterns:
- NS for North-North V-shaped trips (an "in" and an "out")
- CS for Through, linear trips (from one "through" to another "through")
- SS for South-South V-shaped trips (an "in" and an "out")
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V shaped trips don't attract all that much ridership. It is much quicker to just go from Point A to C rather than A to B to C. This is why we need to boost circumferential bus service. Especially when looking at suburban commutes, which CR servers, you are talking about people who own cars and would chose driving over going all the way into Boston to go out again.

Through service will attract far fewer riders than most people think, at least at first. The benefits of through running have far more to do with operations and terminal space; think of all the land dedicated to rail at North and South Stations that could be redeveloped? The only city in the US that has done through running, Philly, even had to scale back their service and terminate half of their trains in Center City because that's where the demand was and running past is done just to balance the operations. What you'll see is growth in ridership between North and South Stations but not much else past that.
 
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