MBTA "Transformation" (Green Line, Red Line, & Orange Line Transformation Projects)

[#bancars]

Video shows floor buckling aboard crowded Green Line trolley

Video shows that passengers were standing within inches of the issue when it occurred.

www.wcvb.com

WCVB reports the video showing the incident and reports the MBTA's reasoning - some kind of misalignment in the metal floor developed. They checked all the other type 9s and they couldn't find any indication of similar issues developing in the other type 9s.

Thanks! Don't know how I missed this. Glad it seems to have been a one-off and not a systemic issue with the other CAF vehicles.

 

[stick n move]

So on the BPDA website I came across this thing called “PLAN: Mattapan”

https://www.bostonplans.org/planning/planning-initiatives/plan-mattapan

Apparently it was just recently approved by the BPDA.

“PLAN: Mattapan was adopted by the BPDA Board on May 11, 2023. An executive summary of PLAN: Mattapan and its recommendations is also available below.”

“The plan proposes recommendations that lay the groundwork for an affordable, equitable, and resilient Mattapan: the allowance of backyard Additional Dwelling Units (ADUs), mobility improvements and mixed-use zoning that will cultivate a 10-minute neighborhood, transit improvements, and promoting investment in Mattapan Square and opportunities to strengthen local businesses.”

“The BPDA is planning to deliver new zoning to fulfill the plan recommendations within the next year as part of the citywide squares and corridors initiative and as part of a specialized zoning feasibility study focused on neighborhood residential areas in Mattapan to address ADUs.”


And heres the presentation
https://www.bostonplans.org/getattachment/e0d891c2-d9e9-420d-b280-5393bb35deea

Looking through the documents I came across an interesting slide.

Zoomed in

Im not sure how serious they really are about actually implementing any of these transit recommendations, but either way I figured Id post it here so ppl could have a look.

 

[The EGE]

I'm glad to see they're thinking about improving access to existing stations (bullets 3, 4, and 7).

 

[Teban54]

So on the BPDA website I came across this thing called “PLAN: Mattapan”

https://www.bostonplans.org/planning/planning-initiatives/plan-mattapan

Apparently it was just recently approved by the BPDA.

“PLAN: Mattapan was adopted by the BPDA Board on May 11, 2023. An executive summary of PLAN: Mattapan and its recommendations is also available below.”

“The plan proposes recommendations that lay the groundwork for an affordable, equitable, and resilient Mattapan: the allowance of backyard Additional Dwelling Units (ADUs), mobility improvements and mixed-use zoning that will cultivate a 10-minute neighborhood, transit improvements, and promoting investment in Mattapan Square and opportunities to strengthen local businesses.”

“The BPDA is planning to deliver new zoning to fulfill the plan recommendations within the next year as part of the citywide squares and corridors initiative and as part of a specialized zoning feasibility study focused on neighborhood residential areas in Mattapan to address ADUs.”


And heres the presentation
https://www.bostonplans.org/getattachment/e0d891c2-d9e9-420d-b280-5393bb35deea

Looking through the documents I came across an interesting slide.
View attachment 38605

Zoomed in
View attachment 38606
View attachment 38607

Im not sure how serious they really are about actually implementing any of these transit recommendations, but either way I figured Id post it here so ppl could have a look.

If extending the Mattapan Line to Readville and even towards Dedham is seriously on the table, what's stopping them from just doing it as a Red Line extension as opposed to an LRV line?

 

[Brattle Loop]

If extending the Mattapan Line to Readville and even towards Dedham is seriously on the table, what's stopping them from just doing it as a Red Line extension as opposed to an LRV line?

Cheaper than tunneling from (at least) Mattapan to the Fairmount ROW?

 

[bakgwailo]

Wow, that is pretty interesting and close to a punch list of transit: electrified rapid transit on Fairmount, extended and upgraded ("transformed"!) Mattapan HSR line, and upgraded access to existing stations... only thing missing is actual rapid transit down Blue Hill Ave. At this point, though, given that they can't even seem to restore the PCCs, I'll not be holding my breath.

If transit was improved (Fairmount and HSR), though, it would create one of the biggest "new" parts of the city with 20-minute commutes to South Station, and 30-40 minute commutes to Cambridge (***provided the Red Line stops being utter shite).

If extending the Mattapan Line to Readville and even towards Dedham is seriously on the table, what's stopping them from just doing it as a Red Line extension as opposed to an LRV line?

From the community meetings of the Mattapan HSL "transformation" project (Was that 10 years ago now ) - the head engineer of the project claimed there was not enough room in the ROW through Cedar Grove Cemetary to run the Red Line. As discussed here, that's probably BS, but, certainly, there would be community opposition to it through Lower Mills/Milton. I'd also say it depends on how they cross Mattapan Square, might be cheaper as a trolley, but I can't see doing it without a tunnel (and hopefully relocating the station itself to actually being directly under Mattapan Square).

 

[HenryAlan]

I had seen most of this info for Plan Mattapan on other sources, but not the Rozzie OLX piece as part of the plan. That really needs to happen, but it is an odd thing to include in an otherwise Mattapan specific document. Hopefully this is an indication that the city intends to push the idea as broadly as possible.

And really, if not when the Mayor lives a few blocks from there, then when will the OLX +1 ever get a push?

 

[Teban54]

I had seen most of this info for Plan Mattapan on other sources, but not the Rozzie OLX piece as part of the plan. That really needs to happen, but it is an odd thing to include in an otherwise Mattapan specific document. Hopefully this is an indication that the city intends to push the idea as broadly as possible.

And really, if not when the Mayor lives a few blocks from there, then when will the OLX +1 ever get a push?

The rationale was mentioned in the document: OLX to Roslindale will hopefully draw more people to take the 30 bus from Mattapan to Roslindale and transfer to OLX from there.

Not sure if that logic holds when there's T31 to Forest Hills, with 15-min frequencies planned in the BNRD, though. The 30 is planned to maintain its current 50-min frequency all day in the BNRD, but if OLX happens, it will probably be cut back to terminate at Roslindale and hopefully with a frequency increase, but still not to the level of T31.

 

[HenryAlan]

Not sure if that logic holds when there's T31 to Forest Hills, with 15-min frequencies planned in the BNRD, though. The 30 is planned to maintain its current 50-min frequency all day in the BNRD, but if OLX happens, it will probably be cut back to terminate at Roslindale and hopefully with a frequency increase, but still not to the level of T31.

My thought was indeed that it might relate to enhanced utility for route 30. But as you say, some of that might be rendered less pressing by T31. There are people in Mattapan, though, who will not have such strong access to T31, so a 30 to OL at Rozzie Square would be useful to them if the frequencies can ever improve.

 

[bakgwailo]

Like the new stop at River St. A footbridge across the Neponset would also be pretty cool around Osceleola St or Wachusett St to open up the walkshed even more over to a reasonably dense part of Milton that isn't serviced by Transit, too. The Columbia Rd stop is interesting/cool, but, the spacing with the existing Four Corners stop is pretty tight - might end up being the closest out of Red/Orange. Definitely need electrification and EMUs to make any of that work. That, though, by itself would be extremely transformative from pretty poor/no transit (outside of buses) to one of the best transit areas in the City with 10-minute headways and a 10-15 minute ride to South Station. Add in the HSL extension with it and that would be one of the biggest wins in transit for the southern neighborhoods in a very long time.

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

Cheaper than tunneling from (at least) Mattapan to the Fairmount ROW?

Sure in the absolute, but tunneling under River St. between Mattapan Sq. and Poydras St. where the Fairmount Line starts having room for quad-track width wouldn't be very expensive as tunnels go. No stations inside that tunnel, only about 1 km of total tunneling, fairly wide street abutted by large-ish residential front yards, hard bedrock with no drainage issues. That wouldn't be a cost backbreaker by any means if you were serious about extending Red.

 

[mass88]

Can they also electrify the entire Franklin line? Getting that line up and running with frequent and reliable service will go a long way to getting people off of 95/128/93 going into town.

How viable do you think it would be to extend the Mattapan line to say Norwood Depot and in the process eliminate the Islington and Endicott stops on the Franklin line? That could help speed up the trip for the Franklin line.

 

[ceo]

Might have to tunnel anyway. River St doesn't look anywhere near wide enough for a dedicated reservation, and we all know how fond the T is of street running.

 

[bakgwailo]

How viable do you think it would be to extend the Mattapan line to say Norwood Depot and in the process eliminate the Islington and Endicott stops on the Franklin line? That could help speed up the trip for the Franklin line.

I would think that isn't feasible, but, my mind is maybe just stuck thinking of PCCs vs. real LRVs. But, that would be a pretty big downgrade in service for Dedham in my mind. You lose the one-seat relatively fast ride to South Station vs. now hoping on a pretty slow trolley to then have to transfer at Ashmont (not even cross-platform), hop on the Red, and then go local to South Station. Be looking at a 7-8 mile trolley ride just to get to the subway to get in town. For comparison, the D line is about 10 miles from Back Bay as a one-seat ride (that you could then stay on another mile or two to Park/etc), which is way better than spending almost that distance to get to the outskirts of the city at Ashmont.

Maybe if it was a real Red Line Extension it might be able to work, but it would still be by far the longest heavy rail rapid transit spur in the system - a few more miles to JFK than even the Braintree line.

Might have to tunnel anyway. River St doesn't look anywhere near wide enough for a dedicated reservation, and we all know how fond the T is of street running.

Yeah, I don't see how any extra regardless of mode wouldn't require a tunnel there. I can't see a sane world where the HSL would street run down River St - or for that matter manage to cross Mattapan Square at street level. Maybe if they were hell-bent on it, you'd need a full redesign of the Square, and then run it up Cummins Highway in a reservation (bye-bye, new bike lanes) and somehow magically cut it into the ROW there which just seems it would be enough money where a tunnel is just the way to do it.

 

[ant8904]

I would think that isn't feasible, but, my mind is maybe just stuck thinking of PCCs vs. real LRVs. But, that would be a pretty big downgrade in service for Dedham in my mind. You lose the one-seat relatively fast ride to South Station vs. now hoping on a pretty slow trolley to then have to transfer at Ashmont (not even cross-platform), hop on the Red, and then go local to South Station. Be looking at a 7-8 mile trolley ride just to get to the subway to get in town. For comparison, the D line is about 10 miles from Back Bay as a one-seat ride (that you could then stay on another mile or two to Park/etc), which is way better than spending almost that distance to get to the outskirts of the city at Ashmont.

This is kinda a tangent, but why did they do that? Ashmont used to be cross platform. The old station did that on purpose. I remember the chatter here back the talking about it, but we I don't recall anyone going into any design discussion back then. 2009 was not that long ago. A lot of here were around back then and we watch as they spent $10 of millions to making a shiny but less functional station.

 

[F-Line to Dudley]

Can they also electrify the entire Franklin line? Getting that line up and running with frequent and reliable service will go a long way to getting people off of 95/128/93 going into town.

How viable do you think it would be to extend the Mattapan line to say Norwood Depot and in the process eliminate the Islington and Endicott stops on the Franklin line? That could help speed up the trip for the Franklin line.

Franklin Line isn't wide enough to go quad-track. It's closely abutted by residences in Dedham, and there's a wetlands causeway right before 128.

The easiest trajectory past Readville is due west on the ex- Dedham Branch to Dedham Center. That ROW is grade separated and only requires a small duck-under right by the Dedham High School football stadium.

 

[ulrichomega]

Might have to tunnel anyway. River St doesn't look anywhere near wide enough for a dedicated reservation, and we all know how fond the T is of street running.

I mean, it's technically possible. Street seems to be about 60' wide at its narrowest with 8' sidewalks on either side that could be mildly cannibalized if an extra foot or two is needed. Huntington where the E line runs is 80' and that seems to be the T's limit on streetcars (though I do seem to remember them considering a dedicated reservation for the E line, I just can't find anything about it right now). Are there any examples of 60' wide streets with bus lanes/transit reservations?

 

[bakgwailo]

This is kinda a tangent, but why did they do that? Ashmont used to be cross platform. The old station did that on purpose. I remember the chatter here back the talking about it, but we I don't recall anyone going into any design discussion back then. 2009 was not that long ago. A lot of here were around back then and we watch as they spent $10 of millions to making a shiny but less functional station.

Yeah, I've often wondered that hoping off from the trolley up town and mad dashing with everyone through the fare gates and down the stairs to try to catch the leaving Red Line train (boo). Rather amusingly: back on the MBTA's tour through Dot/Milton/Mattapan for the HSL's Transformation Project, the T did throw out there redesigning Ashmont Station (again) and putting in a platform to platform transfer. Yet to see almost anything many years later on any of this so not holding my breath.

I mean, it's technically possible. Street seems to be about 60' wide at its narrowest with 8' sidewalks on either side that could be mildly cannibalized if an extra foot or two is needed. Huntington where the E line runs is 80' and that seems to be the T's limit on streetcars (though I do seem to remember them considering a dedicated reservation for the E line, I just can't find anything about it right now). Are there any examples of 60' wide streets with bus lanes/transit reservations?

Best I can find is this. There was an update after that, though, where the MBTA clarifieid that the side running lanes were only a concept, and that they were open to center running/etc. Was the last update I had heard, though.

On River St - not even sure you have 60' in a few places where it might drop to even 57'. Either way even at 60' its pretty untenable: loss of all parking, sidewalk cannibalized, and there is basically no room for stations which would need to be ADA compatible - the old E Line drop 'em in the travel lane in the street probably isn't going to fly for something new.

 

[Tallguy]

Franklin Line isn't wide enough to go quad-track. It's closely abutted by residences in Dedham, and there's a wetlands causeway right before 128.

The easiest trajectory past Readville is due west on the ex- Dedham Branch to Dedham Center. That ROW is grade separated and only requires a small duck-under right by the Dedham High School football stadium.

Except the new development of Yard 5 did not leave provision for re use of the Dedham ROW

 

[stick n move]

The row is still there.

Maybe not for much longer though as a self storage has been proposed which will block it so short sighted.

https://www.universalhub.com/2021/developer-concludes-nobody-wants-rent-office-space

I guess in the grand scheme it wouldnt be tooo hard to knock down the self storage if there was a real proposal so its better than housing being built on the row cuz that would never go once its built.