MBTA Winter 2015: Failure and Recovery

Re: MBTA & Regular Driving May Be Shut Down During Coming Snowstorm!

So the City is doing something interesting in South Boston to deal with the narrowed streets due to snow. They've modified the entire grid based on one-way streets until April 1. While this is sure to cause confusion at first, this is a really clever solution. Heck, maybe it should stay that way.

http://www.cityofboston.gov/news/Default.aspx?id=18997

25285_3_14_30.jpg

13842_3_14_30.jpg
 
Re: MBTA & Regular Driving May Be Shut Down During Coming Snowstorm!

Jahvon09 said:
The Blue Line cars have the snow plows, but I'm not sure about the other lines' cars.
Click to expand...

The Blue Line cars all have small plows and brooms on each car. The Blue Line does not have ATO/cab signals, so the plow does not interfere with the placement of the coils that pick up the signal codes which the Red/Orange have.
The Blue Line uses overhead catenary on the surface, they can equip cars with heated sleet cutter inserts on the pantographs which are effective in clearing ice from the wire.

All of the Orange Line cars and the #2 and #3 Red Line cars have third-rail sleet scrapers. The #1 Red Line cars do not have sleet scrapers, but in winter, they are always supposed to be run in a train that includes #2 cars so that at least one pair in a six car set has sleet scrapers. Because of the location of the coils to pick up the signal codes, it is not practical for each Red or Orange Line car to have a plow. They do however have several pairs of trucks (the motor/wheel/ brake assemblies) for Red and Orange line cars that are equipped with a large plow on the front. They can run these plow-equipped cars in the middle of a train to groom the rail, or they can place them in front and have a dispatcher "block the train" so it can run on the main line without signals.

All of the Green Line Type 7s and Type 8s have a small plow assembly on the front motor trucks. These are effective at clearing the rails if they can run trains during the storm (revenue or non-revenue) on a regular basis. If they line gets blocked because the cars can't run or if they need to clear out yard tracks, they have six "lead sleds" which are weighted down Boeing LRV trucks with a coupler on one end and a large plow on the other. These are pushed by a two-car train of conventional equipment. They have had these for almost 20 years. When they were first introduced, there was fear they would be prone to derailment. That has not turned out to be the case.
The can also install sleet cutter inserts in the Type 7 pantographs to cut ice on the wire.

The Mattapan line has the least snow protection. They don't want to burn out the motors on the PCCs by exposing them to too much snow, so the line is bused if 4 or more inches of snow is predicted. The PCC have never been good pushers, too much possibility to damage ribbons in the propulsion system control drum. So a "led-sled" type of solution would not work there

The Red Line has a small diesel locomotive and diesel powered rotary snow blower assigned to it but they seem to be sitting inactive at Cabot.
The Red and Orange line crane cars are also equipped with a snow plow and can be pushed by a six-car set of regular equipment if snow is heavy. The Red Line also still has a 1928 flat car with a snow plow that can be pushed by either the diesel locomotive (if it was working) or a conventional set of equipment. The car is 87 years old, but it was refurbished about 10 years ago and is pretty simple in its construction.

The MBTA experimented with deicing fluids a few years ago, but found them not to be very effective.
 
Re: MBTA & Regular Driving May Be Shut Down During Coming Snowstorm!

winstonoboogie said:
The Blue Line cars all have small plows and brooms on each car. The Blue Line does not have ATO/cab signals, so the plow does not interfere with the placement of the coils that pick up the signal codes which the Red/Orange have.
The Blue Line uses overhead catenary on the surface, they can equip cars with heated sleet cutter inserts on the pantographs which are effective in clearing ice from the wire.

All of the Orange Line cars and the #2 and #3 Red Line cars have third-rail sleet scrapers. The #1 Red Line cars do not have sleet scrapers, but in winter, they are always supposed to be run in a train that includes #2 cars so that at least one pair in a six car set has sleet scrapers. Because of the location of the coils to pick up the signal codes, it is not practical for each Red or Orange Line car to have a plow. They do however have several pairs of trucks (the motor/wheel/ brake assemblies) for Red and Orange line cars that are equipped with a large plow on the front. They can run these plow-equipped cars in the middle of a train to groom the rail, or they can place them in front and have a dispatcher "block the train" so it can run on the main line without signals.

All of the Green Line Type 7s and Type 8s have a small plow assembly on the front motor trucks. These are effective at clearing the rails if they can run trains during the storm (revenue or non-revenue) on a regular basis. If they line gets blocked because the cars can't run or if they need to clear out yard tracks, they have six "lead sleds" which are weighted down Boeing LRV trucks with a coupler on one end and a large plow on the other. These are pushed by a two-car train of conventional equipment. They have had these for almost 20 years. When they were first introduced, there was fear they would be prone to derailment. That has not turned out to be the case.
The can also install sleet cutter inserts in the Type 7 pantographs to cut ice on the wire.

The Mattapan line has the least snow protection. They don't want to burn out the motors on the PCCs by exposing them to too much snow, so the line is bused if 4 or more inches of snow is predicted. The PCC have never been good pushers, too much possibility to damage ribbons in the propulsion system control drum. So a "led-sled" type of solution would not work there

The Red Line has a small diesel locomotive and diesel powered rotary snow blower assigned to it but they seem to be sitting inactive at Cabot.
The Red and Orange line crane cars are also equipped with a snow plow and can be pushed by a six-car set of regular equipment if snow is heavy. The Red Line also still has a 1928 flat car with a snow plow that can be pushed by either the diesel locomotive (if it was working) or a conventional set of equipment. The car is 87 years old, but it was refurbished about 10 years ago and is pretty simple in its construction.

The MBTA experimented with deicing fluids a few years ago, but found them not to be very effective.
Click to expand...

Oh, hey, facts! Great and informative post as always. I always look forward to your posts.
 
Re: MBTA & Regular Driving May Be Shut Down During Coming Snowstorm!

davem said:
I'm speculating here, but I'm pretty sure it's not about the tracks... it's the trains motors sucking in powdery snow and dying.

My guess is after this next storm they will have had over a week working getting the cars back in shape, and after a heavy plowing of the tracks on Sunday will be able to open full force Monday (or Tuesday... or June).


We've never had weather like this before and are understandably not prepared for it, especially with our 40 year old unmaintained equipment, because CLIMATE CHANGE is exactly why we're getting these insane storms. But I get it, science is hard.

As for all the snow gear, yes, since this is becoming a trend the T should be investing more heavily in it. But none of that would make a rats ass of a difference attached to a failing, unmaintained physical plant. And don't forget, the red line does have a diesel locomotive and plow, but they are out of service because they couldn't afford to keep them operational, or train new operators on how to use and fix them.
Click to expand...

Davem --

  • 1) ]QUOTE]" it's the trains motors sucking in powdery snow and dying. "[/QUOTE] -- DC versus AC Motors -- no excuse -- the T should have converted the existing fleet -- as all the rest of the known modern world [not Pyongyang] is going to AC

    Ironically the T began the use of multiphase rectified AC to replace the original pure DC back in the 1970's with the Red Line extensions
  • 2)
    "We've never had weather like this before and are understandably not prepared for it "
    Click to expand...
    -- actually we've had lots of weather like this essentially once a decade or so -- although this one is particularly bad for the recent period

    Check out some of the anecdotes about Blizzards and winter storms before the observations official began to be archived and we could have official records -- e.g. the Blizzard of 88 [that would be 1888]

    http://imgick.masslive.com/home/mass-media/width960/img/republican/photo/2013/03/-db5e68f9e95e4c6d.JPG[img]
    Main St. in Springfield but it was about the same from NYC to Boston that week

    [*]3) [QUOTE]" because CLIMATE CHANGE is exactly why we're getting these insane storms".[/QUOTE] -- No the climate is always changing and this phase of its evolution favors these kinds of weather patterns

    Long term trend is more snow and ice -- followed by extensive glaciation again

    [*]4) [QUOTE]"But I get it, science is hard" [/QUOTE] --Agreed

    Real Science is hard -- and its most rewarding philosophically [as in the Frosts poem about chopping wood and being warmed twice] -- on the other hand Anthropogenic Global Warming Junk-Science is easy -- you just make it up as you go along [e.g. "Hide the Decline"] -- kind of like junk Williamsonian journalism" -- on the other hand Junk AGW is financially rewarding just ask AlGore

    [*]5) [QUOTE] "As for all the snow gear, yes, since this is becoming a trend the T should be investing more heavily in it. But none of that would make a rats ass of a difference attached to a failing, unmaintained physical plant".[/QUOTE] -- Agreed

    The T needs to make sure it knows what its has [it doesn't apparently know as the maintenance database is still not functional] and then figure out what it needs [equipment, process, personnel, supplies] to maintain a functional system under the kinds of conditions which we can expect to have in the is particular part of the planet -- not pretend that new cars in 5 years will solve the problems

    [/list]

    Note this ain't rocket science or nuclear physics -- both of which with I've had some experience as well as mucking about in the National Climatological Data Archive
 
Re: MBTA & Regular Driving May Be Shut Down During Coming Snowstorm!

winstonoboogie said:
Blue Line cars all have small plows and brooms on each car... uses overhead catenary on the surface, they can equip cars with heated sleet cutter inserts on the pantographs which are effective in clearing ice from the wire...

Orange Line cars and the #2 and #3 Red Line cars have third-rail sleet scrapers...have several pairs of trucks (the motor/wheel/ brake assemblies) for Red and Orange line cars that are equipped with a large plow on the front.....The Red Line has a small diesel locomotive and diesel powered rotary snow blower ...The Red and Orange line crane cars are also equipped with a snow plow and can be pushed by a six-car set of regular equipment if snow is heavy. The Red Line also still has a 1928 flat car with a snow plow that can be pushed by either the diesel locomotive....

Green Line Type 7s and Type 8s have a small plow assembly on the front motor trucks..... If the line gets blocked... six "lead sleds" which are weighted down Boeing LRV trucks with a coupler on one end and a large plow on the other... pushed by a two-car train ... They can also install sleet cutter inserts in the Type 7 pantographs to cut ice on the wire.

The MBTA experimented with deicing fluids a few years ago, but found them not to be very effective.
Click to expand...

Winston -- thanks for the review

Perhaps the T should do some additional review of best practices of places like CTA and in Europe where snow and ice are common issues
 
Re: MBTA & Regular Driving May Be Shut Down During Coming Snowstorm!

winstonoboogie said:
The Blue Line cars all have small plows and brooms on each car. The Blue Line does not have ATO/cab signals, so the plow does not interfere with the placement of the coils that pick up the signal codes which the Red/Orange have.
The Blue Line uses overhead catenary on the surface, they can equip cars with heated sleet cutter inserts on the pantographs which are effective in clearing ice from the wire.

All of the Orange Line cars and the #2 and #3 Red Line cars have third-rail sleet scrapers. The #1 Red Line cars do not have sleet scrapers, but in winter, they are always supposed to be run in a train that includes #2 cars so that at least one pair in a six car set has sleet scrapers. Because of the location of the coils to pick up the signal codes, it is not practical for each Red or Orange Line car to have a plow. They do however have several pairs of trucks (the motor/wheel/ brake assemblies) for Red and Orange line cars that are equipped with a large plow on the front. They can run these plow-equipped cars in the middle of a train to groom the rail, or they can place them in front and have a dispatcher "block the train" so it can run on the main line without signals.

All of the Green Line Type 7s and Type 8s have a small plow assembly on the front motor trucks. These are effective at clearing the rails if they can run trains during the storm (revenue or non-revenue) on a regular basis. If they line gets blocked because the cars can't run or if they need to clear out yard tracks, they have six "lead sleds" which are weighted down Boeing LRV trucks with a coupler on one end and a large plow on the other. These are pushed by a two-car train of conventional equipment. They have had these for almost 20 years. When they were first introduced, there was fear they would be prone to derailment. That has not turned out to be the case.
The can also install sleet cutter inserts in the Type 7 pantographs to cut ice on the wire.

The Mattapan line has the least snow protection. They don't want to burn out the motors on the PCCs by exposing them to too much snow, so the line is bused if 4 or more inches of snow is predicted. The PCC have never been good pushers, too much possibility to damage ribbons in the propulsion system control drum. So a "led-sled" type of solution would not work there

The Red Line has a small diesel locomotive and diesel powered rotary snow blower assigned to it but they seem to be sitting inactive at Cabot.
The Red and Orange line crane cars are also equipped with a snow plow and can be pushed by a six-car set of regular equipment if snow is heavy. The Red Line also still has a 1928 flat car with a snow plow that can be pushed by either the diesel locomotive (if it was working) or a conventional set of equipment. The car is 87 years old, but it was refurbished about 10 years ago and is pretty simple in its construction.

The MBTA experimented with deicing fluids a few years ago, but found them not to be very effective.
Click to expand...



The Washington DC Metro's subway trains also have ATO.

But because of the June 22, 2009 deadly collision of a train, during rush hour, slamming into the stopped train in which nine passengers, including the driver, were killed and scores of others injured, their system was revised and reviewed for the better.

Turns out that a defective area of the track signaling system in that area had caused a malfunction, which had stopped the train at first, and then for seemingly no apparent reason, the train began speeding up to 65mph & rammed into & telescoped on top of the last car in the stopped train! :eek:
 
Last edited:
Re: Dr. Beverly Scott resigns

HalcyonEra said:
(Pension + Medical)*Length of Retirement >=< ($40K - Annual 401K Contribution) * Length of Employment

Interesting Calc.
Click to expand...

Let's get real on this discussion:
Proposed 10 point plan

  • 1) Immediate operational plan to fix as much as possible to insure some degree of reliable service for the remainder of the winter
  • 2) get a handle on the maintenance database that should have been done years ago
  • 3) develop a realistic budget based on current revenues and expenses for next FY [since it begins in July] -- especially to prepare for next winter
  • 4) revision to the management structure that can be done without the Legislature
  • 5) Major critical restructuring of the management structure such as giving the Governor and the Mayor of Boston 2 appointees to an expanded DOT Board and make the Sec of DOT the Chair
  • 6) start cleaning up the KRAP below the management level such as the antiquated union work rules
  • 7) New pension plan for new hires -- realizing that there is probably little that can done about the existing Bulger-era pensions [i.e. Athens-west]
  • 8) develop realistic plan to handle operations until the new equipment arrives such as interim motor replacements
  • 9) Review and revise 5 year capital plans to include more investment in maintenance
  • 10 ) only then can we worry about longer term expansion, new possible revenues, etc.

Basic idea -- as Mayor Kevin White once said about City of Boston employees and patronage:
  • the bottom layer of unskilled -- they provide the for future election
  • the top layer of managers -- they are the political payoffs for the past election
  • BUT the middle managers and the "non-coms" in the workforce -- they have to be selected only on a merit basis -- they make the city work
 
Re: Dr. Beverly Scott resigns

Nationwide search for the next GM -- should be restricted to places of reasonable size and similar cold weather operating challenges -- with stellar results


No more even thought of a political patronage type hire -- I suggest that T ask CTA for permission to talk to the Deputy GM or such

and then structure the deal to give person hired "Belichick-type" level of authority to make the system run
 
Re: Dr. Beverly Scott resigns

^ While you continue to harp on about Chicago and how they are the poster child for dealing with snow, keep this fact in mind.

If we get 10.3" or more out of this storm, we'll have gotten more snow in 3 weeks than Chicago has ever had in an entire winter.
 
Re: Dr. Beverly Scott resigns

datadyne007 said:
^ While you continue to harp on about Chicago and how they are the poster child for dealing with snow, keep this fact in mind.

If we get 10.3" or more out of this storm, we'll have gotten more snow in 3 weeks than Chicago has ever had in an entire winter.
Click to expand...

How about a person from Toronto?
 
Re: Dr. Beverly Scott resigns

Toronto averages 48" per year, Montreal about 80".
 
Re: Dr. Beverly Scott resigns

For what it's worth, Montreal, Toronto, Detroit, Chicago, St. Louis (on the edge), and Minneapolis are the major urban areas (2m+) in North America that are in a similar climate zone to Boston (by Koppen standards). If the MBTA wanted to look at how other major cities with similar climates to ours deal with weather, these would be the cities to examine.
 
Re: Dr. Beverly Scott resigns

All of those cities have rolling stock that is newer. We can talk to them, sure, but all they are going to tell us is to upgrade our damn equipment and rail infrastructure (signals, switches, etc). This situation does. not. have. an. easy. fix.

Winston posted this in the shutdown thread. I'm going to cross-post it here. The T clearly has snow mitigation:

winstonoboogie said:
The Blue Line cars all have small plows and brooms on each car. The Blue Line does not have ATO/cab signals, so the plow does not interfere with the placement of the coils that pick up the signal codes which the Red/Orange have.
The Blue Line uses overhead catenary on the surface, they can equip cars with heated sleet cutter inserts on the pantographs which are effective in clearing ice from the wire.

All of the Orange Line cars and the #2 and #3 Red Line cars have third-rail sleet scrapers. The #1 Red Line cars do not have sleet scrapers, but in winter, they are always supposed to be run in a train that includes #2 cars so that at least one pair in a six car set has sleet scrapers. Because of the location of the coils to pick up the signal codes, it is not practical for each Red or Orange Line car to have a plow. They do however have several pairs of trucks (the motor/wheel/ brake assemblies) for Red and Orange line cars that are equipped with a large plow on the front. They can run these plow-equipped cars in the middle of a train to groom the rail, or they can place them in front and have a dispatcher "block the train" so it can run on the main line without signals.

All of the Green Line Type 7s and Type 8s have a small plow assembly on the front motor trucks. These are effective at clearing the rails if they can run trains during the storm (revenue or non-revenue) on a regular basis. If they line gets blocked because the cars can't run or if they need to clear out yard tracks, they have six "lead sleds" which are weighted down Boeing LRV trucks with a coupler on one end and a large plow on the other. These are pushed by a two-car train of conventional equipment. They have had these for almost 20 years. When they were first introduced, there was fear they would be prone to derailment. That has not turned out to be the case.
The can also install sleet cutter inserts in the Type 7 pantographs to cut ice on the wire.

The Mattapan line has the least snow protection. They don't want to burn out the motors on the PCCs by exposing them to too much snow, so the line is bused if 4 or more inches of snow is predicted. The PCC have never been good pushers, too much possibility to damage ribbons in the propulsion system control drum. So a "led-sled" type of solution would not work there

The Red Line has a small diesel locomotive and diesel powered rotary snow blower assigned to it but they seem to be sitting inactive at Cabot.
The Red and Orange line crane cars are also equipped with a snow plow and can be pushed by a six-car set of regular equipment if snow is heavy. The Red Line also still has a 1928 flat car with a snow plow that can be pushed by either the diesel locomotive (if it was working) or a conventional set of equipment. The car is 87 years old, but it was refurbished about 10 years ago and is pretty simple in its construction.

The MBTA experimented with deicing fluids a few years ago, but found them not to be very effective.
Click to expand...

The problem is not that the T doesn't know how to deal with winter weather. The problem is that the rolling stock with the equipment on it simply doesn't work because it's too old.
 
Re: Dr. Beverly Scott resigns

An inordinate amount of emphasis is placed on finding someone who deals with transit in a similar climate. We don't need someone who has dealt with 70"+ of snow in one winter. We need a leader that has experience managing crises, empowering the organization, and navigating ludicrous state politics. All of the experience to deal with what we've seen this winter is already in house at the MBTA. Someone needs to champion the cause and continue the battle for significant maintenance investment to ensure the operations can run as intended.
 
Re: Dr. Beverly Scott resigns

omaja said:
An inordinate amount of emphasis is placed on finding someone who deals with transit in a similar climate. We don't need someone who has dealt with 70"+ of snow in one winter. We need a leader that has experience managing crises, empowering the organization, and navigating ludicrous state politics. All of the experience to deal with what we've seen this winter is already in house at the MBTA. Someone needs to champion the cause and continue the battle for significant maintenance investment to ensure the operations can run as intended.
Click to expand...

Amen. +100
 
Re: MBTA & Regular Driving May Be Shut Down During Coming Snowstorm!

whighlander said:
Winston -- thanks for the review

Perhaps the T should do some additional review of best practices of places like CTA and in Europe where snow and ice are common issues
Click to expand...

As much as I love to rag on the MBTA for its faults and operational failures, I really don't think wasting time looking at "best practices" elsewhere will help anything at all. I think it is fairly obvious that the major issue is not one of understanding how to operate Boston's system in Boston's climate, but rather one of trying to mitigate the issue of anemic funding. You can only jerry-rig solutions so many times before the very foundation comes crumbling down. We are most definitely at that point and until that is addressed any time spent elsewhere is completely useless.
 
Re: MBTA & Regular Driving May Be Shut Down During Coming Snowstorm!

omaja said:
As much as I love to rag on the MBTA for its faults and operational failures, I really don't think wasting time looking at "best practices" elsewhere will help anything at all. I think it is fairly obvious that the major issue is not one of understanding how to operate Boston's system in Boston's climate, but rather one of trying to mitigate the issue of anemic funding. You can only jerry-rig solutions so many times before the very foundation comes crumbling down. We are most definitely at that point and until that is addressed any time spent elsewhere is completely useless.
Click to expand...

I am going to somewhat disagree on this point.

I completely agree that the MBTA has a funding issue, both for operation and for capital spending.

But, I also believe that the MBTA does not know how to efficiently use funding when they get it. And that is where learning from best practices in other cities would be useful. (And also learning from things that did not work). We have a lot of home grown solutions that are just stupid (T trying to build stuff they should not be building themselves), bad engineering allowed by contractors (Assembly Platform outdoors that does not have center drains, so floods), etc. The T also fails miserably on cost -benefit analysis. There are numerous cases where moderate capital expenditures to modify the current tunnels, would allow huge long-term cost savings on rolling stock and operations -- but those changes are never funded, because they are not "sexy".

There is a lot of pretending to know what they are doing, when they really do not.
 
Re: MBTA & Regular Driving May Be Shut Down During Coming Snowstorm!

This is the one problem I have with the State and Local Officials along with the BRA.
Why wasn't a plan to layout a better MBTA Infrastructure for Seaport District from the very beginning?
So instead of making the area desirable for Developers to build the Mayor and the BRA promoted Tax breaks & Incentives to the developers.
Does that make any fucking sense for an area that should be prime development opportunities?

One of the major problems with the MBTA is the pensions and healthcare costs. People are living longer so its costing more and more. Along with Capital infrastructure costs.

What other agencies are in Financial chaos like the MBTA in this state? The Democrat power might be finally showing signs of serious mismanagement of Taxpayers money.

The only solution I have for the MBTA is a massive 2 Billion dollar taxpayer bailout but giving that type of money to the MBTA is like throwing it into a black-hole and I don't have faith that they would make the right cuts or sacrifices to get their fiscal house in order.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top